Do gender roles still apply today?

PloverWing

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I’ve heard a pastor bring up this passage in 1 Corinthians 11:2-16.

I'd completely forgotten about head coverings, as they're rare among Christians in my area. The Episcopal Church's general philosophy towards things like crossing yourself, genuflecting, and so on is that you should feel free to do it if it brings you closer to God, but you're also free not to do it. Head coverings fall into that category.

Interestingly (and perhaps a little off-topic, sorry!), when I was looking up the history of head covering in the Episcopal church, I ran into this article: Outward and Visible: On Covering My Head as an Episcopalian — Earth and Altar . It's written by an Episcopalian who covers her head in church, but most emphatically not for gendered reasons.
 
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Gregorikos

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I think a kilt is worn loosely around the hips though. In our culture it is okay for women to wear jeans, but maybe it should be taken just as seriously of a woman wearing a 3 piece suit as a man wearing a dress. All I'm saying is that if you think crossdressing is a sin, then I think that would count as something implying a gender role. But, you see no wrong in crossdressing.

Well I'm not comfortable with a lot of crossdressing, but I hesitate to call anything a sin with only 1 Old Testament verse to back it up. What exactly was behind that verse? Some kind of idolatry or occult? And the distinction is blurry. Even you seem to not know whetehr a woman in slacks is crossdressing and therefore a sin. But again- clothing is not a gender role as defined by complementarian churches today. I move we take crossdressing out of the discussion, because it only muddies the waters.
 
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I'd completely forgotten about head coverings, as they're rare among Christians in my area. The Episcopal Church's general philosophy towards things like crossing yourself, genuflecting, and so on is that you should feel free to do it if it brings you closer to God, but you're also free not to do it. Head coverings fall into that category.

Interestingly (and perhaps a little off-topic, sorry!), when I was looking up the history of head covering in the Episcopal church, I ran into this article: Outward and Visible: On Covering My Head as an Episcopalian — Earth and Altar . It's written by an Episcopalian who covers her head in church, but most emphatically not for gendered reasons.
That’s quite all right. I’ve heard one pastor give his interpretation that praying and prophesying with the head covered is just another way of saying that you attend church service on the Lord’s day. Because the place is uniquely marked by prayer and prophesy. So the entirety of church service means to worship God in spirit and in truth is prayer and prophecy. I’m not sure on this but I think head covering is specific to a Christian woman that’s married so not something applied to every woman.
 
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What I’m saying is that the concept of gender roles goes beyond the debate of egalitarian v complementarian and expands to philosophic and cultural meaning, intrinsic to the sexes. If you don’t affirm homosexuality and crossdressing, then that I would say counts as a gender role. You’re effectively saying who should or shouldn’t marry whom based on gender, for example. But let’s say you do affirm those things; well, what about perceived cultural norms? Is it inherently wrong or do you prefer it that way? What I mean is, are you perfectly fine the way things are, that certain clothing is perceived to be feminine and others masculine? Frilly dresses for example, or a three piece suit? Albeit, if that’s all one considers to be regarded as a gender role, that seems like rather low standards. You can diminish gender roles but you can’t get rid of it.
@Gregorikos
 
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Gregorikos

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What I’m saying is that the concept of gender roles goes beyond the debate of egalitarian v complementarian and expands to philosophic and cultural meaning, intrinsic to the sexes. If you don’t affirm homosexuality and crossdressing, then that I would say counts as a gender role. You’re effectively saying who should or shouldn’t marry whom based on gender, for example. But let’s say you do affirm those things; well, what about perceived cultural norms? Is it inherently wrong or do you prefer it that way? What I mean is, are you perfectly fine the way things are, that certain clothing is perceived to be feminine and others masculine? Frilly dresses for example, or a three piece suit? Albeit, if that’s all one considers to be regarded as a gender role, that seems like rather low standards. You can diminish gender roles but you can’t get rid of it.
@Gregorikos

We're not talking about the same thing, and I'm done arguing with you.
 
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RDKirk

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Polygamy is illegal in most countries. So, even if marriage were privatized, clergymen couldn’t grant license for just anything.

You were talking about marriage as permitted by God in Genesis. It was not just "one man and one woman" but also one man and several women. The nation God set up explicitly under His direct command was permitted polygamy. If your argument is that nations should enforce marriage as God permitted it in Genesis, that includes polygamy.
 
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You were talking about marriage as permitted by God in Genesis. It was not just "one man and one woman" but also one man and several women. The nation God set up explicitly under His direct command was permitted polygamy. If your argument is that nations should enforce marriage as God permitted it in Genesis, that includes polygamy.
Nations have been enforcing what God instituted in the garden. The only difference is that some countries get it wrong sometimes, by having trouble defining it. One reason for the existence of marriage is simple: Adam was lonely and needed a helper (Genesis 2:18). Notice that Adam didn’t raise any qualm, God pointed this out in him. Secondly, what God allows is not always an indication of what he approves. Consider Malachi 2:13-15. God would not accept the sacrifices of the Israelites because they were unfaithful to their wives. This is really a message for me to consider as well, I think also of 1 Corinthians 7:2.
 
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RDKirk

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Nations have been enforcing what God instituted in the garden.

And polygamy?

Nations had been enforcing whatever they wanted. Pharoah did not permit polygamy because God told him to do it. Caesar did not enforce monogamy because God told him to do it.
 
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And polygamy?

Nations had been enforcing whatever they wanted. Pharoah did not permit polygamy because God told him to do it. Caesar did not enforce monogamy because God told him to do it.
You would agree that God created marriage to begin with, right? That means that nations legislate marriage knowingly or not that it came from God. Now, I did bring it up, the whole thing about privatized marriage but I changed my mind halfway through the discussion.
 
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RDKirk

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You would agree that God created marriage to begin with, right? That means that nations legislate marriage knowingly or not that it came from God. Now, I did bring it up, the whole thing about privatized marriage but I changed my mind halfway through the discussion.

God created natural mating instincts. Some animals mate for life, male and female. Some male animals have prides or harems. Some female animals have multiple male mates. They can only very rarely vary from instinct, and those that do vary are usually unsuccessful at mating...so the variaiton seldom goes far. That's instinctive.

Humans have an urge to mate, but weak instincts that are usually overcome by external pressures as human societies form. But variations are wide...and often create successful societies. The more successful the society, the more survival margin it has for occasional deviations from the instinctive and even the social norms.

Now, God created all that. God created mating patterns, instincts, and even the capacity to vary from instinctive norms.

But God also institutes covenants with mankind, and not all His covenants are the same, nor is any covenant coercive.

That's the important point: No covenant is coercive. Men can always choose to accept or reject a covenant with God. That's not to say that rejection won't have its consequences, but all covenants can be rejected.

Freely rejected.
 
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God created natural mating instincts. Some animals mate for life, male and female. Some male animals have prides or harems. Some female animals have multiple male mates. They can only very rarely vary from instinct, and those that do vary are usually unsuccessful at mating...so the variaiton seldom goes far. That's instinctive.

Humans have an urge to mate, but weak instincts that are usually overcome by external pressures as human societies form. But variations are wide...and often create successful societies. The more successful the society, the more survival margin it has for occasional deviations from the instinctive and even the social norms.

Now, God created all that. God created mating patterns, instincts, and even the capacity to vary from instinctive norms.

But God also institutes covenants with mankind, and not all His covenants are the same, nor is any covenant coercive.

That's the important point: No covenant is coercive. Men can always choose to accept or reject a covenant with God. That's not to say that rejection won't have its consequences, but all covenants can be rejected.

Freely rejected.
Yeah, but, doesn’t it mean anything to you that we are made in the image of God? All animals are capable of are instinct, but we are capable of moral reasoning. I’ll admit I haven’t done an extensive study on the meaning of the image of God, but I found this to be helpful.
What Does It Mean That We Are “Created in God’s Image”? — Ask Ligonier

In a way, it sounds like you are pointing out that we are made in the image of God, as you say that God makes covenants with mankind.

But, about this disagreement over how marriage should be legislated, I’ve been giving it some thought. Back in 2004, Larry Elder specified that he wants the state to be out of the marriage-granting-license business. And, that came on the heels of MA being the first state to make same-sex marriage legal. However, in 2016, he said that same-sex marriage should be decided on a state by state basis, and that of course was at a time when it recently became legal nationwide. I’m not entirely sure, but I think there’s a nuance to this debate over privatized marriage. I think you can still be for privatized marriage, but still want some involvement in either the state or nation enacting what kind of marriage is legal and what is prohibited.
 
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Ken-1122

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Men are to be leaders in the household
I’ve often wondered what that looks like. I know this is not to mean we condone men acting like tyrants. From a devotional titled, Spousal Roles, from Ligonier, “…that he will remember that she is a person and not to be run roughshod over when decisions are made. He will respect her opinion and work to compromise when necessary. Nevertheless, the two will not agree at times and in these cases the wife is called to submit insofar as she does not sin by doing so.” I also think that verses here, Ephesians 5:25-26, mean that men of their household are to take the initiative in godly devotion. While verse 21 does say that Christians are to submit to one another, Paul also teaches wives to submit to husbands, as to the Lord (v. 22).
These are instructions from Paul. But are Paul's words like Jesus whereas his words are equal to Gods? Or is Paul just another imperfect man with opinions and views like the rest of us, with the likelihood of being wrong at times?
 
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Tropical Wilds

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Firstly, what is meant by the term “gender roles”? Do these roles pertain only to what is possible biologically? For example, some men produce seed, but no man produces eggs. Likewise, no woman produces seed, but some women produce eggs. Maybe it’s irrelevant to some because they think gender and sex mean different things. Christians, on the other hand, may have another consideration in mind. What about the institution of marriage designed by God to be between a man and a woman?

[But now, to get into the semantics of it. Do I acknowledge that some understand sex and gender to mean different things? Yes, I do. But that does not mean that I’m going to concede to the argument: If I agree that gender and sex mean different things, then I’m saying gender theory is correct. But the fact is, not all dictionary definitions agree on this.]

I would argue that yes gender roles are still relevant today. Some might counter this with a verse in Galatians where it says “there is neither…male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” (See Gal 3:28) This is meaning something different. The apostle Paul was affirming what Jesus said, “an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth” (Jn 4:23). According to the Reformation Study Bible, “The ceremonial and sacrificial aspects of the law were…temporary and provisional.” So, Paul was instead emphasizing spiritual equality. The apostle also had in several letters, discussion on roles of husband and wife. (See 1 Co 11:3; Eph 5:21-33; Col 3:18-19; 1 Pe 3:1-7)

So again, Paul was emphasizing spiritual equality. This spiritual equality is not incompatible “with the God-ordained roles of headship and submission in the church, society, and the home.” (MacArthur Study Bible)

In other words, I do not see it as “gender” vs “nature”. Rather, the DNA inherent in males and females determines who we are; the roles we should live by are determined by the gender that our DNA says that we are.* Now, when I say “roles”, I mean conduct, and things that are commonly true of men and women.

Now when the Bible makes a prohibition of transvestitism (Deut. 22:5), some argue that this is a case against women in combat roles. The reason behind this interpretation is that women are the life-givers, nurturers. Also, it seems women don’t really have the issue of crossdressing generally, so it’s not to do with jeans. Quoting the Reformation Study Bible, “Women were not to adopt the accoutrements of the male (e.g., carrying weapons), and men were not to dress as women. The symbols of gender difference were to be respected, and while such symbols vary over time and from culture to culture, the principle of gender distinction remains (Gen. 1:27; cf. 1 Tim. 2:13).”

Men are to be leaders in the household
I’ve often wondered what that looks like. I know this is not to mean we condone men acting like tyrants. From a devotional titled, Spousal Roles, from Ligonier, “…that he will remember that she is a person and not to be run roughshod over when decisions are made. He will respect her opinion and work to compromise when necessary. Nevertheless, the two will not agree at times and in these cases the wife is called to submit insofar as she does not sin by doing so.” I also think that verses here, Ephesians 5:25-26, mean that men of their household are to take the initiative in godly devotion. While verse 21 does say that Christians are to submit to one another, Paul also teaches wives to submit to husbands, as to the Lord (v. 22).

Roles for the church
In the same way, pastors/elders are to be males. Paul, instructing Timothy about the office of overseer, rules out the polygamist, “the husband of one wife” (1Ti 3:2). Why is he only addressing male polygamists? It’s because he already made it clear in the previous chapter that women are not to be overseers/pastors/elders (and yes, I take all those words to mean the same thing). However, believing women are very much encouraged to preach to unbelievers; you don’t have to hold the title of pastor/teacher in order to evangelize the lost.

Societal roles
So if these “roles” relate to what is a general rule about men and women, why is the standard applied across the board? Some women are stronger than some men. However, it sounds like a terrible idea to have women drafted into war. So then, if men wield the sword and the civil magistrate wields the sword (see Ro 13:4), then does this apply to mayor, governor, city council, and Supreme Court justice to be only men? I’m just explaining how some interpret this. It’s relatively new that I’ve heard this perspective.

Conclusion
But I thought I might end with this, an article by Susan Hunt, The Goodness of Gender. —I asked our eight-year-old and eleven-year-old granddaughters, "Who is better—boys or girls?" There was immediate consensus: "Girls!" We had a Titus 2 sit-down. Ask them now and they will tell you, "Boys are better at being boys, girls are better at being girls, we are equal but different, and it is very good because God said so.”—

*But what about intersex conditions? some may counter. Doesn’t this make it uncertain that there are only two sexes? While there are rare diseases that make it appear that some males have XX chromosome pairs, or females with XY, these aren’t genuine mismatched chromosome pairs in the truest sense. Further analysis allows us to know what’s really happening. Swyers happens, when a female has what appears to be an XY sex chromosome pair, caused by mutation or deletion on important parts "of the segment of the Y chromosome containing the SRY gene." [quote by rarediseases.org] With de la Chapelle syndrome, a male with an XX pair, a translocation occurs, a piece of the SRY gene attaches with an X chromosome. Androgen insensitivity syndrome occurs in genetic males (XY). “Because their bodies are unable to respond to certain male sex hormones (called androgens), they may have mostly female external sex characteristics or signs of both male and female sexual development.” (From MedlinePlus) These conditions may not be noticed until puberty; they are infertile.

on a personal level, roles matter in the context in which they are held and by whom. If you are of a faith that teaches that there are gender roles their adherents have to follow socially or religiously, and those adherents choose to follow them, super. If you’re Muslim, Conservative Christian, Neo-Pagan, an Orthodox Jew, whatever, and you want to follow your religions demands for gender roles, go for it.

On a governmental, legislative, or scientific level, though, none of those rules apply. One cannot dictate their neighbor’s gender role based off what your religion states. A Wiccan can’t demand a Christian elevate women to a higher priesthood level than men because that’s what their Wiccan tradition says, just like a Christian can’t tell an atheist what their role in society should be based off of outward-presenting gender. No religion can tell a scientist to ignore science to support faith-based beliefs.

So you want to be a quiver-full Amish family with clearly defined gender roles that have women as homemakers and primary parents and men as laborers and Church decision makers, as long as everybody there gives their consent, rock on. You want me to do that too because that’s what your religion commands? No thank you. And if you want to try and legislate your religion, absolutely not. I do not subscribe to or consent to that belief or lifestyle and do not need to follow it.
 
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These are instructions from Paul. But are Paul's words like Jesus whereas his words are equal to Gods? Or is Paul just another imperfect man with opinions and views like the rest of us, with the likelihood of being wrong at times?
Before I address this question, let me make one thing clear. I can’t say with absolute certainty, but I’m fairly certain that gender roles applies to everyone whether they know it or not — that is, male and female roles. Because, the term can’t just pertain to religious people. One man’s philosophy tells him that we need to first agree that gender and sex mean different things in order to make progress on these hot-button issues — policies on locker rooms, sports, and prisons. While your philosophy may be that metaphysics needs to stay out of policy making, by dividing groups of people on these issues by the gender they were born with, the gender that their DNA says that they are. You might even say that whatever side you end up on this debate, you’re still acknowledging that some sort of standard is needed, which I think points to the relevance of “gender roles” in today’s society.

Now, in answer to your question: should we take Paul’s word over Jesus’ or vise versa? I will answer by quoting a paragraph from, Nothing but the truth by Brian H. Edwards.

The Christian church inherited a collection of sacred texts that they believed had the mark of God’s revelation upon them — this was the Hebrew Scriptures that we know as our Old Testament. The idea of authoritative books forming a collection that was clearly defined and fixed was therefore ingrained in the spiritual life of the early Christians. It would be natural for them to expect something similar from the teaching of Jesus and the apostles, especially as Jesus had given clear indications that this was his intention: ‘But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking what is mine and making it known to you’ (John 16:13-14). Or again, ‘The Counsellor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you’ (John 14:26).
Page 208-209
 
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Moral Orel

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One man’s philosophy tells him that we need to first agree that gender and sex mean different things in order to make progress on these hot-button issues — policies on locker rooms, sports, and prisons. While your philosophy may be that metaphysics needs to stay out of policy making, by dividing groups of people on these issues by the gender they were born with, the gender that their DNA says that they are.
Ugh.... These aren't two opposing positions. They're the same position. Look:

One man’s philosophy tells him that we need to first agree that gender and sex mean different things in order to make progress on these hot-button issues — policies on locker rooms, sports, and prisons. While your philosophy may be that gender needs to stay out of policy making, by dividing groups of people on these issues by the sex they were born with, the sex that their DNA says that they are.​

Same position. Same guy.
 
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Ugh.... These aren't two opposing positions. They're the same position. Look:

One man’s philosophy tells him that we need to first agree that gender and sex mean different things in order to make progress on these hot-button issues — policies on locker rooms, sports, and prisons. While your philosophy may be that gender needs to stay out of policy making, by dividing groups of people on these issues by the sex they were born with, the sex that their DNA says that they are.​

Same position. Same guy.
Is this the position you would hold to? Maybe you don’t like the term “gender role” in the way I mean it. Instead, use the word male and female role in place of it. Aren’t you saying these roles matter to some degree?
 
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Ken-1122

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Before I address this question, let me make one thing clear. I can’t say with absolute certainty, but I’m fairly certain that gender roles applies to everyone whether they know it or not — that is, male and female roles. Because, the term can’t just pertain to religious people.
People may apply gender me, whether I accept those roles or not is up to me. There is nothing forcing anybody to accept those roles against their will
One man’s philosophy tells him that we need to first agree that gender and sex mean different things in order to make progress on these hot-button issues — policies on locker rooms, sports, and prisons.
But we DON”T agree on that issue; some people do others do not; hence the hot button issue.
Now, in answer to your question: should we take Paul’s word over Jesus’ or vise versa?
No; that was not my question. My question was is the word of Paul equal to the word of God, like with Jesus.
I will answer by quoting a paragraph from, Nothing but the truth by Brian H. Edwards.

The Christian church inherited a collection of sacred texts that they believed had the mark of God’s revelation upon them — this was the Hebrew Scriptures that we know as our Old Testament. The idea of authoritative books forming a collection that was clearly defined and fixed was therefore ingrained in the spiritual life of the early Christians. It would be natural for them to expect something similar from the teaching of Jesus and the apostles, especially as Jesus had given clear indications that this was his intention: ‘But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking what is mine and making it known to you’ (John 16:13-14). Or again, ‘The Counsellor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you’ (John 14:26).
Page 208-209
I have no idea what any of that means. Can you tell me in your own words? Again; are the words of Paul equal to the word of God? Or is it believed Paul was a flawed human like the rest of us with the ability to make mistakes by expressing subjective opinions rather than truth.
 
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People may apply gender me, whether I accept those roles or not is up to me. There is nothing forcing anybody to accept those roles against their will

But we DON”T agree on that issue; some people do others do not; hence the hot button issue.

No; that was not my question. My question was is the word of Paul equal to the word of God, like with Jesus.

I have no idea what any of that means. Can you tell me in your own words? Again; are the words of Paul equal to the word of God? Or is it believed Paul was a flawed human like the rest of us with the ability to make mistakes by expressing subjective opinions rather than truth.
God used the mind of Paul to give us special revelation from God, and a large portion of the New Testament is delivered through him. He did not work independent of God. Paul was granted apostolic authority to do so; he could not do this on his own; he was moved by God; it was not nor can it be a manufacture of religious genius; the natural intellect and experience of the male writers’ style were retained, but the origin of the message belongs to God alone. Galatians 1:11-12

In summation, no, he was enabled by God, and Paul’s word is not equal to Jesus as co-author; Paul’s writing contained portions of the New Testament Scripture and the message is not his own, yet he was personally involved in the delivery of the message.
 
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Ken-1122

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God used the mind of Paul to give us special revelation from God, and a large portion of the New Testament is delivered through him. He did not work independent of God.
If God used the mind of Paul to give his special revelation, that is the same as saying what Paul says is equal to what God says; right?

In summation, no, he was enabled by God, and Paul’s word is not equal to Jesus as co-author; Paul’s writing contained portions of the New Testament Scripture and the message is not his own, yet he was personally involved in the delivery of the message.
If God used Paul to give his revelation, how come this revelation is not equal to what Jesus says?
 
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