Stain of sin vs Guilt of sin . . .

Light of the East

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Working on becoming Orthodox and this one issue keeps popping up in discussions I am having. As Orthodox, we reject the idea of the "Immaculate Conception." My understanding is that there was no need for this because the idea of an individual bearing the guilt of Adam's sin is wrong. However, we do bear the consequences of what he did . . . which is primarily sin.

So - here goes.

1. What is meant (as you understand it) by the "Stain of Sin." RC apologists insist that the IC was necessary because Mary would have inherited the stain of sin. Do you know what they are talking about?

2. There is also the idea that without the IC, Mary would have inherited a broken human nature which was subject to choosing sin. Was Mary's nature in some way affected by the fall in the Garden?

3. How is the stain of sin different from the guilt of sin? I'm not sure I can put an accurate definition of the two in contrast to each other, so I am looking for help.

Any further definition of our opposition to the IC will also be appreciated.

Thank you
 

Lukaris

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From what I understand, sin is not all depravity but also a consequence in which we all die. ( Romans 5:12-14). The Theotokos did die at the Dormition.

Plus, it is the mark of Cain that brought about depravity. Abel produced good works and Cain did not ( 1 John 3:10-12).
 
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ArmyMatt

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1. What is meant (as you understand it) by the "Stain of Sin." RC apologists insist that the IC was necessary because Mary would have inherited the stain of sin. Do you know what they are talking about?

for us it’s mortality and death. for Rome, you’d have to ask them.

2. There is also the idea that without the IC, Mary would have inherited a broken human nature which was subject to choosing sin. Was Mary's nature in some way affected by the fall in the Garden?

she did inherit broken human nature because she did die and needed a savior. yes, her human nature was affected.

3. How is the stain of sin different from the guilt of sin? I'm not sure I can put an accurate definition of the two in contrast to each other, so I am looking for help.

guilt of sin isn’t inherited.
 
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Light of the East

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QUOTE="ArmyMatt for us it’s mortality and death. for Rome, you’d have to ask them.

The stain is mortality and death. I guess Rome would think it is something else which has the bearing of sin.

she did inherit broken human nature because she did die and needed a savior. yes, her human nature was affected.

If I understand correctly, inheriting a broken nature is not the same thing as a willful, conscious decision to sin. So, while she inherited that which Adam left to all his posterity, that does not mean that she is a sinner.

guilt of sin isn’t inherited.

Yes, I knew that from listening to AFR and talks with Orthodox such as you, Father.
 
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ArmyMatt

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If I understand correctly, inheriting a broken nature is not the same thing as a willful, conscious decision to sin. So, while she inherited that which Adam left to all his posterity, that does not mean that she is a sinner.

right. so while she personally committed no sin, she was still ensnared by it and needed a savior.
 
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Dewi Sant

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2. There is also the idea that without the IC, Mary would have inherited a broken human nature which was subject to choosing sin. Was Mary's nature in some way affected by the fall in the Garden?

May I change one word?
'Mary would have inherited a broken nature which was susceptible to choosing sin.'

The fact that she kept herself pure, is, in my opinion, of greater joy than if she were born immune from sin.
 
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ArmyMatt

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The fact that she kept herself pure, is, in my opinion, of greater joy than if she were born immune from sin.

St John of San Francisco makes this argument. the IC actually dishonors her.
 
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Light of the East

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May I change one word?
'Mary would have inherited a broken nature which was susceptible to choosing sin.'

The fact that she kept herself pure, is, in my opinion, of greater joy than if she were born immune from sin.

It also gives much greater honor to Her than if She was of such a nature that choosing sin was an impossibility. This is one of the arguments against the IC by St. John of San Francisco.
 
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right, it’s that we are also guilty of Adam’s sin

The word "stain" makes the mind tend to think in terms of an ontological change within the person rather than an extrinsic consequence.

Further question: Does Orthodoxy believe that there is such a thing as a "sin nature" or is that a Western concept?
 
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ArmyMatt

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The word "stain" makes the mind tend to think in terms of an ontological change within the person rather than an extrinsic consequence.

stains are always a consequence from a foreign contaminant. think of when you stain a shirt or a deck.

Further question: Does Orthodoxy believe that there is such a thing as a "sin nature" or is that a Western concept?

you can, depending on how you define it.
 
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narnia59

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It also gives much greater honor to Her than if She was of such a nature that choosing sin was an impossibility. This is one of the arguments against the IC by St. John of San Francisco.
I have never seen anything in Catholic teaching that would conclude that the Immaculate Conception made it impossible for Mary to sin.

It simply means that as the New Eve, she was created in the same state as Eve before the fall. It seems pretty obvious that wouldn't make it impossible to sin, as Eve proves.
 
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ArmyMatt

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It simply means that as the New Eve, she was created in the same state as Eve before the fall. It seems pretty obvious that wouldn't make it impossible to sin, as Eve proves.

do you believe she (the Mother of God) sinned and do you believe she died (serious questions)?
 
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ArmyMatt

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I believe she did not sin and I believe she died.

then how is she in the same state as Eve before the Fall? since had Eve not sinned, she would not have died. she only died because she sinned. if Mary was both sinless and in the same state as Eve prior to the Fall, she would not have died.
 
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narnia59

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then how is she in the same state as Eve before the Fall? since had Eve not sinned, she would not have died. she only died because she sinned. if Mary was both sinless and in the same state as Eve prior to the Fall, she would not have died.
I think you are failing to take into account that Mary, unlike Eve, was living in a fallen world. Creation fell along with Adam and Eve, right?

Your view seems to hold that the only way a person's physical nature can be impacted is by their own personal spiritual nature. I'd say that's just not true. Our bodies live in and are also impacted by the world around us, regardless of what our spiritual state may be.

Adam and Eve would not have experienced illness or death prior to their sin not simply because of their internal state of holiness, but also because creation was still intact, holy, in harmony with man, and a friend to our physical bodies. Fallen creation spews earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, floods, and germs at our physical nature. Why would an internal state of holiness make a person's body immune to fallen creation?

Christ's death was caused by the physical actions of fallen men; Mary's was caused by the physical actions of fallen creation. Is there really a difference in that? Her death does not give testimony that she was not created without original sin. It simply gives testimony that even a person in that state can be physically impacted by a fallen creation.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I think you are failing to take into account that Mary, unlike Eve, was living in a fallen world. Creation fell along with Adam and Eve, right?

Your view seems to hold that the only way a person's physical nature can be impacted is by their own personal spiritual nature. I'd say that's just not true. Our bodies live in and are also impacted by the world around us, regardless of what our spiritual state may be.

Adam and Eve would not have experienced illness or death prior to their sin not simply because of their internal state of holiness, but also because creation was still intact, holy, in harmony with man, and a friend to our physical bodies. Fallen creation spews earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, floods, and germs at our physical nature. Why would an internal state of holiness make a person's body immune to fallen creation?

Christ's death was caused by the physical actions of fallen men; Mary's was caused by the physical actions of fallen creation. Is there really a difference in that? Her death does not give testimony that she was not created without original sin. It simply gives testimony that even a person in that state can be physically impacted by a fallen creation.

then Mary wasn’t born in the state of Eve prior to the Fall, or Eve would have died even if she hadn’t fallen.

and no, I don’t believe that the only way a person’s physical nature can be impacted is by their spiritual nature.
 
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narnia59

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then Mary wasn’t born in the state of Eve prior to the Fall, or Eve would have died even if she hadn’t fallen.

and no, I don’t believe that the only way a person’s physical nature can be impacted is by their spiritual nature.
I'm sorry, but that reasoning doesn't make sense to me, unless you mean that in order for Mary to be born in the same state as Eve we're not talking about the state of their souls but also the state of the world they were born into.

When I say Mary was born in the same state as Eve prior to the fall I am speaking only about the state of their souls. Both Eve and Mary (in my view) had no ancestral or original sin. Eve because she was a new creation; Mary by a special gift of God's grace (again in my view). That would make them both born in the same state -- no original or ancestral sin. She is truly the new Eve.

The difference between the two was not the state of their soul at their creation. It was the world they were born into.

If Eve had never fallen (along with Adam) they would never have died. They would have continued to live in paradise, in a perfect creation, and there would have been nothing to cause their death because creation was in complete holiness and harmony along with them.

Mary wasn't born into paradise, she was born into a fallen world. A world that acted against her body and caused her death.

But the fact that she died doesn't somehow prove that her and Eve's souls were not in the same state when they were created that I can see. The state of the world they were born into is what was the difference.
 
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narnia59

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I always found it strange that Mary needed to be sinless to bear Christ because of course why weren't Mary's parents sinless and so on?
I'm not aware of anyone who teaches that Mary "needed" to be sinless to bear Christ.
 
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