the Mark of the Beast, Daniel's 70th week, and Pastor Bill Macgregor

RandyPNW said:

You should research the Church Fathers on this. Only a few of them might believe that. The vast majority believed that the 70th Week was fulfilled in the generation of Jesus, in particular with Christ's death and with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD by the Romans.

The "research" you must've engaged in is Premill in more recent times, ie "popular eschatology." The Dispensationalists are big on this. Happily, you're not a part of that!

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The early Church was dominantly Premill, Chiliasts, up to the third century. They knew nothing about dispensationalism.

Super Kal said:

so, I'll just come out and say it at the beginning so everyone knows how i view this, I'm personally a premillennial, futurist, post-trib. i understand there are others who would disagree with me, and im perfectly fine with that, that's why i dont want to limit who can respond. i would like to hear everyone's thoughts and opinions based on what they have searched and studied

in my search and study of eschatology, i've come across an individual named Pastor Bill MacGregor. now he himself is a post trib, pre wrath, however he does have some peculiar beliefs:

~ he believes that we are in Daniel's 70th week. He equates this due to his belief that the signing of the Abraham Accords was the start of Daniel's 70th week. He also thinks the Jared Kushner is the Antichrist, because it was Kushner who instigated the Abraham Accords.

~ he believes that the vaccine is the Mark of the Beast. he takes this stance based on his belief that the use of luciferase in the vaccine is what will trigger the mark once the use 5G is implemented.

~ he believes that the third seal is currently being opened with Biden and his inflation, while the first seal was Kushner promoting peace with the Abraham Accords, and the second seal being the vaccine.

~ because of his beliefs regarding Daniel's 70th week and the Antichrist, he has recently stated that he has been able to calculate when the rapture would take place: roughly 13 months from, IIRC, September of 2023. He has stated the exact date in some of his sermons, which are found exclusively on bit chute

~ in addition to the above, he has also stated that New York is the harlot of Babylon, New York will be destroyed due to a tsunami created by a nuclear explosion, there are 144,000 frozen Jews in Antarctica and will be unfrozen soon to spread the Gospel (i kid you not)

i would love to hear everyone's thought and opinions based on scriptures as to why this pastor may be right or wrong

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Super Kal, we are not in the 70th week yet.

The 70th week comes right after the Gog/Magog event in Ezekiel 38/39. That is a 100% lock. For reason being that Jesus Himself is speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29 having returned to this earth (in the near future).

The Antichrist does have to be a Jew, that part the MacGregor is right about.

The covenant though is the Mt. Sinai covenant, which the Antichrist will confirm as the Jews will initially think he is their messiah. The confirming for 7 years is a requirement that Moses made in Deuteronomy 31:9-13 of all future leaders of Israel.

Kushner is not the person - because he is from the wrong part of the world. The Antichrist has to be from the people who destroyed the city and temple - the Romans. That part of the world.

Someone like Zelensky. Too early to tell for certain.

The career path of the person to his destruction is...

little horn > the prince who shall come (into the middle east following Gog/Magog) > the Antichrist > the revealed man of sin > the beast

...right now, it first must be determined who that little horn person is - Zelensky or someone else.

Super Kal said:

so, I'll just come out and say it at the beginning so everyone knows how i view this, I'm personally a premillennial, futurist, post-trib. i understand there are others who would disagree with me, and im perfectly fine with that, that's why i dont want to limit who can respond. i would like to hear everyone's thoughts and opinions based on what they have searched and studied

in my search and study of eschatology, i've come across an individual named Pastor Bill MacGregor. now he himself is a post trib, pre wrath, however he does have some peculiar beliefs:

~ he believes that we are in Daniel's 70th week. He equates this due to his belief that the signing of the Abraham Accords was the start of Daniel's 70th week. He also thinks the Jared Kushner is the Antichrist, because it was Kushner who instigated the Abraham Accords.

~ he believes that the vaccine is the Mark of the Beast. he takes this stance based on his belief that the use of luciferase in the vaccine is what will trigger the mark once the use 5G is implemented.

~ he believes that the third seal is currently being opened with Biden and his inflation, while the first seal was Kushner promoting peace with the Abraham Accords, and the second seal being the vaccine.

~ because of his beliefs regarding Daniel's 70th week and the Antichrist, he has recently stated that he has been able to calculate when the rapture would take place: roughly 13 months from, IIRC, September of 2023. He has stated the exact date in some of his sermons, which are found exclusively on bit chute

~ in addition to the above, he has also stated that New York is the harlot of Babylon, New York will be destroyed due to a tsunami created by a nuclear explosion, there are 144,000 frozen Jews in Antarctica and will be unfrozen soon to spread the Gospel (i kid you not)

i would love to hear everyone's thought and opinions based on scriptures as to why this pastor may be right or wrong

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he believes that we are in Daniel's 70th week. He equates this due to his belief that the signing of the Abraham Accords was the start of Daniel's 70th week. He also thinks the Jared Kushner is the Antichrist, because it was Kushner who instigated the Abraham Accords.

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Revelation is based on Daniel 9:26 and Daniel 9:27, not just verse 27. Trumpets 1-4 & the 5th Trumpet (1st Woe) are the 'people of the prince to come will destroy the city' (Dan 9:26).

The 6th Trumpet is the 'people of the prince to come' destroying the sanctuary (Dan 9:26). After this 'great tribulation' is cut short, then the covenant is made (Dan 9:27) (symbolized by Revelation 10:1's rainbow 'sign of the son of man in heaven'). This is the start of the 2 witnesses 1260 days. After this is the 'sign of the son of man in heaven' of Revelation 12:1, and then the beast from the sea & earth arrive with the breaking of the covenant for the 3rd Woe/ 7th Trumpet.

Because the Trumpets begin on Sukkot/ Feast of Tabernacles (see Sukkot and Shushan Purim) and is the start of the great tribulation, either Feast of Tabernacles and/or the following Shushan Purim have to occur on a Saturday.

This year can't be the start, because neither Feast of Tabernacles nor Shushan Purim occur on a Saturday. But it can start at Feast of Tabernacles in 2023, as both are on a Saturday.

Keep in mind that the events of Revelation should have an appearance such that they could deceive the elect (Matthew 24:24). The Abraham Accords, confirmed on Sept 15, 2020, would be broken on Feb 27, 2024.

If the start of the great tribulation (start of the Trumpets, start of the 1st Woe) is Feast of Tabernacles in 2023 (dusk Sept 29, 2023), then Shushan Purim (15 Adar) (start of the 6th Trumpet, start of the 2nd woe) would be on dusk Feb 23, 2024.

This would be 3.5 days before the breaking of the Abraham Accords on Feb 27, 2024.

Thus, his timing is reasonable, BUT, the conclusions he draws from this are not reasonable. Once this part of the great tribulation is cut short, then we still have to get through 1260 days of the 2 witnesses, then an appearance with the beast from the sea & earth & living image worship.

Kushner is a reasonable candidate, but again, there is a short con and a long con being played out in Revelation. Just because Kushner might be part of the short con, doesn't mean he is part of the long con.

he believes that the vaccine is the Mark of the Beast. he takes this stance based on his belief that the use of luciferase in the vaccine is what will trigger the mark once the use 5G is implemented.

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the 'microchips in the vaccine conspiracy theory' is part of the end-times delusion. The '5G mind control' theory is the cover story for the 'pharmakia' of Revelation 18:23. It is probably related to the long con. My personal opinion is that the pharmakia is a hallucinogen that makes people think the '5G microchip' is their personal means of interacting with the AI god in the Metaverse.

he believes that the third seal is currently being opened with Biden and his inflation,

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Seems reasonable.

because of his beliefs regarding Daniel's 70th week and the Antichrist, he has recently stated that he has been able to calculate when the rapture would take place: roughly 13 months from, IIRC, September of 2023. He has stated the exact date in some of his sermons, which are found exclusively on bit chute

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There is no 'whisked away' rapture, imo. 'Israel' has to endure all 3 woes (birth pangs) (see Understanding Revelation through the Birth Pangs of Matthew 24)

His assessment about Sept 2023 could be the start of the Trumpets at Feast of Tabernacles.

in addition to the above, he has also stated that New York is the harlot of Babylon, New York will be destroyed due to a tsunami created by a nuclear explosion, there are 144,000 frozen Jews in Antarctica and will be unfrozen soon to spread the Gospel (i kid you not)

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Like I said earlier about Daniel 9:26 ties into the 'flood' idea here with NYC being the 'city'.
Dan 9:26 And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.

The most interesting part here is the 144,000 frozen Jews.

In all likelihood, he is promoting 'the people of the prince to come' (the 'many false prophets' of Matthew 24:11). These people are the 'locusts' of the 1st Woe (5th Trumpet).
They are symbolic locusts, representing the curse for being disobedience.

Judges 6

Deut 28
38You will sow much seed in the field but harvest little, because the locusts will consume it. 39You will plant and cultivate vineyards, but will neither drink the wine nor gather the grapes, because worms will eat them. 40You will have olive trees throughout your territory but will never anoint yourself with oil, because the olives will drop off. 41You will father sons and daughters, but they will not remain yours, because they will go into captivity.

42 Swarms of locusts will consume all your trees and the produce of your land.

43The foreigner living among you will rise higher and higher above you, while you sink down lower and lower. 44He will lend to you, but you will not lend to him. He will be the head, and you will be the tail.

[...]
48you will serve your enemies the LORD will send against you in famine, thirst, nakedness, and destitution. He will place an iron yoke on your neck until He has destroyed you.

49 The LORD will bring a nation from afar, from the ends of the earth, to swoop down upon you like an eagle—a nation whose language you will not understand, 50a ruthless nation with no respect for the old and no pity for the young.

51 They will eat the offspring of your livestock and the produce of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain or new wine or oil, no calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks, until they have caused you to perish. 52They will besiege all the cities throughout your land, until the high and fortified walls in which you trust have fallen. They will besiege all your cities throughout the land that the LORD your God has given you.

Locusts 'eat the land up' and this is compared to a nation bringing an army that will 'eat up their produce, leaving no grain or wine'. These 'locusts' are 'besieging the cities' in the same way that the 'people of the prince to come' 'destroy the city'.

This army is what is helping to place the abomination in Jerusalem at the start of the 6th Trumpet.

Super Kal said:

im hoping what i am saying is understandable to those of you who read it. if it is not, i humly apologize, it is not my desire to make things confusing, i have ADHD, and sometimes more often than not, my mind goes a million miles faster than what i can type, say, or express, and if you need help with what i am trying to convey, i will do my best to slow down my brain and try to rearticulate whatever it was that created the confusion

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Most thought to day is not that hard to understand. People set in their ways just refuse to change their thinking as long as they are convinced they are right.

All modern eschatology is based on the wrong assumptions, and contradicts other Scripture in their understanding. There is only one logical conclusion, and no one has seemed to settle on it. But that conclusion seems as foreign to Amil as it is to pre-mill. It is as foreign to pre-trib as it is to post trib. It does take one willing to see Scripture slightly different, but many already change Scripture to fit their eschatology. They just refuse to change Scripture they think is more clear, in light of more symbolic Scripture. They would rather use what is seemingly clearer Scripture to interpret what to them is too symbolic to be taken literally.

Matthew 24 is not in chronological order, but Revelation is. So that point alone will get a response from those who declare Revelation is not chronological, while Matthew 24 is. But that one simple point is why all cannot agree with each other when it comes to the Second Coming and the rapture.

Getting past that hurdle which will be too high for the majority of posters here, will clear up a lot of misinformation abounding in the church.

Super Kal said:

i admit i grew up in a dispensational home and went to a dispensational church, so, of course, there is that possibility some remnants of those teachings may influence me to some small degree, but the majority of it i have completely turned away from it; i actually went thru some trauma related to it, but when it concerns Daniel's 70th week, i dont base it on "popular eschatology".
i base it on scripture, most importantly, but i also base it on what the early church had to say, and it's interesting you brought up the early church, because Irenaeus directly relates the 70th week to Antichrist (Against Heresies, book 5, chapter 25), and Hippolytus touches upon it, too (5.182 in Bercot's Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs)

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Ha, I've had similar experiences, and let me relate them to you. I was raised in an Amill environment from childhood, and simply didn't know any better. When, as a teen I recommitted to Christ I came under the influence of the Dispensationalist crowd, and immediately adopted their eschatology.

Later, when memorizing 2 Thes, I discovered, to my surprise, that Paul was actually teaching Postrib in ch. 2! So I abandoned Dispensationalism entirely, not recognizing that I retained some beliefs from its influence, including the 70th Week of Daniel notion.

So for some time I taught that the 70th Week was future. I thought the 1st half of the Week was fulfilled in Christ's death, and the last half will be fulfilled in the Reign of Antichrist.

Well, over time and many years I began to feel uncomfortable with the rationale behind this. One cannot easily split up an established time period of 70 Weeks and still call it a 70 Weeks period! I ultimately recognized that my future view of the 70th Week was Dispensationalist in origin, even though I had abandoned Dispensationalism for many years!

I went back to study the Church Fathers and came to realize nearly all of them believed the 70th Week was historically fulfilled. As you mention, Irenaeus was only one of two or three that held to a futurist version of the 70th Week, which is hardly representative of what the Church Fathers generally believed!

I'm pretty confident of this because I've been sharing this for a long time now, and in fact debated it on another Christian forum. Sadly, those who don't like my stating this ignore the factual nature of my claims, and instead wish to attack me as a Preterist, which I'm not!

I do hold to some beliefs that Preterists also hold, but these are not Preterist beliefs, but actually, historical interpretations of Bible Prophecies which the Church Fathers also held to.

So Preterists embraced what the Church Fathers felt were prophecies historically fulfilled. They weren't actually "Preterist beliefs!" After all, we all believe that some prophecies were fulfilled historically, right?

Jerryhuerta said:

The early Church was dominantly Premill, Chiliasts, up to the third century. They knew nothing about dispensationalism.

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Christian historian Philip Schaff confirms this in a very explicit statement in this regard. I recently shared that with someone who then chose to view Schaff as a "nobody witness!" So much for open-mindedness among some!

Another person who "makes a living" denouncing Premill claims the jury is still out on this, and believes there is a noticeable lack of evidence Premills believed in mortal humanity with a Sin Nature in the Millennium, because he can't find any of them talking about "Sin-Rabid People" in the Millennial Era!

So reading through replies here something I’d thought I’d comment on, in vain hope of dissuading anybody from participating in this, is rapture date setting.

I’ve seen some mention it alongside the information the OP presented and it’s completely futile to even attempt such things. You’ll end up joining the likes of Harold Camping with things like that. Not even Jesus knows the hour in which he is returning.

Douggg said:

Super Kal, we are not in the 70th week yet.

The 70th week comes right after the Gog/Magog event in Ezekiel 38/39. That is a 100% lock. For reason being that Jesus Himself is speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29 having returned to this earth (in the near future).

The Antichrist does have to be a Jew, that part the MacGregor is right about.

The covenant though is the Mt. Sinai covenant, which the Antichrist will confirm as the Jews will initially think he is their messiah. The confirming for 7 years is a requirement that Moses made in Deuteronomy 31:9-13 of all future leaders of Israel.

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Gog attacks at the start of the Day of the Lord's wrath, the start of the Trumpets.


The naysayers will say that the translation is


but that word for 'fury' or 'wrath' ('chemah', H2634) is overwhelmingly translated as 'wrath' more than 10x over 'fury'.

And this is why Amos 7:1 is translated in the Septuagint as
The 'locusts' of the 1st Woe (5th Trumpet) are the 'locusts' of Gog, the 'people of the prince to come'.

This is why the 'locusts' last for 5 months in the 5th Trumpet. 5 months + 7 months to bury Gog (Ezekiel 39:12) = 12 months, or a 'day' as a 'year', the 'day of the Lord's wrath, the 'year of vengeance'.)

So yes, Daniel 9:27's 7 years does come after Gog, does come after the start of the day of the Lord's wrath, at the 'rainbow' in Revelation 10:1, for the start of the 2 witnesses 1260 days.

ByTheSpirit said:

So reading through replies here something I’d thought I’d comment on, in vain hope of dissuading anybody from participating in this, is rapture date setting.

I’ve seen some mention it alongside the information the OP presented and it’s completely futile to even attempt such things. You’ll end up joining the likes of Harold Camping with things like that. Not even Jesus knows the hour in which he is returning.

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A previous Christian forum I was on banned date-setting with respect to the time of Jesus' Coming. But you always get new attempts to do so--it's no wonder that Jesus said the times and seasons are exclusively in the hands of the Father. He knew people would try to preempt God's Plan, and try to draw followers to themselves.

tranquil said:

Gog attacks at the start of the Day of the Lord's wrath, the start of the Trumpets.

Ezekiel 38:18 Now on that day when Gog comes against the land of Israel, declares the Lord GOD, My wrath will flare up.

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Try this approach instead, tranquil.

The day that Jesus returns is what is critical - as a fail-proof way to figure out the end times timeline framework of events.

Jesus return in is in Ezekiel 39:21-29, Jesus Himself speaking in the text.

So, backtrack through the verses.

Ezekiel 39:17-20, the Armageddon event.

Ezekiel 39:9 the seven years, the 70th week of Daniel 9.

Ezekiel 39:1-6, the destruction of Gog's army.

So the timeline framework is....

Gog/Magog ..............7years.................Armageddon > Jesus's return.

The seals, the trumpets, the vials... fit within that framework.

Super Kal said:

well wait a minute, Randy, you earlier said literally none of the Early Church held to Premillennialism, but now you say "only one of two or three that held to a futurist version"... not trying to be mean or anything, but i have to call you out on this, because both statements can't be correct. which one is right?

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As I said, I'm not new to this. Both are true. The general position, ie the majority, of the Early Church Fathers was Premill--it was initially the dominant position. At the end I will show you a link that I just posted on another forum.

Irenaeus was an exception--not the rule, and a very small minority, in regard to his particular brand of Premill. His follower, Hippolytus, followed him in his view of a future 70th Week of Daniel. There was one other that I know of.

Again, it is no contradiction to say the majority view believes something when there are a small minority of exceptions. Thankyou--I'm not embarassed nor offended. It's a reasonable question.

It is generally recognized within the scholarly world of early church historians that premillennialism was the most widely held view of the earliest church tradition. One of the leading experts on the doctrine of the early church is J. N. D. Kelly, who says, “millenarianism, or the theory that the returned Christ would reign on earth for a thousand years, came to find increasing support among Christian teachers. . . . This millenarian, or 'chiliastic', doctrine was widely popular at this time.”17 "The great theologians who followed the Apologists, Irenaeus, Tertullian and Hippolytus, were primarily concerned to defend the traditional eschatological scheme against Gnosticism,” explains Kelly. “They are all exponents of millenarianism." 18 Philip Schaff, the dean of American church historians and himself a postmillennialist, provided the following summary of the early church’s view of the millennium: The most striking point in the eschatology of the ante-Nicene age is the prominent chiliasm, or millenarianism, that is the belief of a visible reign of Christ in glory on earth with the risen saints for a thousand years, before the general resurrection and judgment. It was indeed not the doctrine of the church embodied in any creed or form of devotion, but a widely current opinion of distinguished teachers, such as Barnabas, Papias, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Methodius, and Lactantius. 19 European scholar and church historian, Adolph Harnack echoes Schaff and tells us, “First in point of time came the faith in the nearness of Christ’s second advent and the establishing of His reign of glory on the earth. Indeed it appears so early that it might be questioned whether it ought not to be regarded as an essential part of the Christian religion.” (https://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1021&context=pretrib_arch)

I'm not Dispensationalist, but I am Premillennialist. This link shows that virtually all of the earliest Church Fathers were Premill. What it does not show, however, is what they believed about Daniel's 70th Week. Virtually all of them believed that Daniel's 70th Week was historically fulfilled in the general time of Christ's own generation, when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans. Only a few, among them Irenaeus and Hippolytus, believed in a future 70th Week. And this was anachronistic with the majority position.

Super Kal said:

this also brings up other points... even if these individuals were the only ones who taught chiliasm, these individuals, i would argue, play a pretty important part, maybe more so than, say, Augustine, Clement of Alexandria, and especially Origen. Irenaeus was the student of Polycarp, who was in turn the student of the Apostle John. Irenaeus even writes to the extent of reminiscing how Polycarp use to tell Irenaeus about how John talked about Jesus... now, im not saying Irenaeus is perfect or anything like that, but that kind of connection cannot be overlooked.

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Yes, I've heard that. Irenaeus was in the line of instruction from the Apostle John and likely had a more reliable eschatology than later Church Fathers and Christian scholars. But he and Hippolytus were not the only chiliasts, or Premills. They were almost all Chiliasts early on. What you have to determine is what all of the Church Fathers believed with respect to Daniel's 70th Week?

And my point remains: virtually all of them believed it was historically fulfilled. Only a few, among them Irenaeus and Hippolytus, believed otherwise, that Daniel's 70th Week is still future. I'm not surprised with this particular pair believing the same thing, since Hippolytus followed Irenaeus as a mentor.

Super Kal said:

furthermore, the statement of you saying you've studied the entire early church and how none of them taught chiliasm, and then a few posts later you then say "only one of two or three that held to a futurist version", it forces me to call into question whether you have studied the early church as much as you claim on this particular subject. again, im not trying to be mean, or rude... im just sharing with you my observations.

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Well, you're messing up your "facts!" I've not indicated I've thoroughly studied all of the Church Fathers--just covered many of their beliefs on these particular subjects. What point is wrong?

Super Kal said:

and finally, the claim that only one, or two, or three people held to a futurist version is overwhelmingly incorrect.

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Then show me otherwise, brother, before you say I'm "overwhelmingly incorrect?"
I didn't indicate that only Irenaeus and Hippolytus were the only futurists!! I indicated only that they were among the very few futurists who held to a future view of Daniel's 70th Week!!

Douggg said:

Gog/Magog ..............7years.................Armageddon > Jesus's return.

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Yours:

Gog/Magog ..............7years.................Armageddon > Jesus's return.

Mine:

Gog/Magog ..............7years.................Armageddon > Jesus's return.

Black = completed.

We are just a little past the middle of the 70th week.

RandyPNW said:

A previous Christian forum I was on banned date-setting with respect to the time of Jesus' Coming. But you always get new attempts to do so--it's no wonder that Jesus said the times and seasons are exclusively in the hands of the Father. He knew people would try to preempt God's Plan, and try to draw followers to themselves.

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Pretty sure it is banned here as well, or was.

Super Kal said:

alright, unlike some other posters here, i can admit when im wrong, and i was wrong. i mistakenly assumed that all premillennialists held to a future fulfillment of Daniel 9:27, and for that i apologize.
you helped me learn something today, and for that I thank you.

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We're not in competition. We're on the same side as Christians.

Super Kal said:

now having said that and doing some study, i will be more open to that, but im not thoroughly convinced that Daniel's 70 weeks are completely fulfilled, because in my study, those who taught that Daniel's 70 weeks (but not the tribulation) were fulfilled were those who ascribed to the Catechetical School of Alexandria.

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And you base that on what source?

Super Kal said:

i find it interesting that before this school existed, one of the most prominent Christian teachers of that century taught that Daniel 9:27 was a future fulfillment, but those who solely came out of the school in Alexandria, all of them said otherwise... something about that doesn't sit right with me, because a lot of theological errors came out of this school, and for all i know, this teaching could possibly be one of them.

but you have given me a lot to think about

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I expect nobody to believe something because I believe it. My interest is only in sharing what I think, and let the Holy Spirit bring the truth to us individually. Our faith is in God, and not so much in one another.

Dave Watchman said:

Gog/Magog ..............7years.................Armageddon > Jesus's return.

Black = completed.

We are just a little past the middle of the 70th week.

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Dave, why would you think Gog/Magog is complete ?

Timtofly said:

Pretty sure it is banned here as well, or was.

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It is against the forums rules here.