Creation Sabbath Origin

Leaf473 · Jul 29, 2022

BobRyan said:
I can understand that you might find fault with the KJV just then as if "lawlessness" is not "transgression of the law". For many it appears to be "a distinction without a difference".

And of course KJV makes it very apparent at that point what is being stated in Gen 4.

there are more texts "not to look at" in the case of not liking the statement "Sin is transgression of the Law" in 1 John 3:4 ...

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. KJV

15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression. NKJV

15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation. NASB

Looking at the first part of the sentence,
For the law produces wrath..

But Deuteronomy says that the law can bring blessings. So by connecting different verses we can make the Bible contradict itself.

BobRyan · Jul 29, 2022

Leaf473 said:
Looking at the first part of the sentence,
For the law produces wrath..

But Deuteronomy says that the law can bring blessings. So by connecting different persons, we can make the Bible contradict itself.

Not a game I play.

Exegesis is the right way to do it - and "yes" it shows how the same teaching is in different places in the Bible (As "bad" as that might sound to you at the moment)

Leaf473 · Jul 30, 2022

BobRyan said:
Not a game I play.

Exegesis is the right way to do it - and "yes" it shows how the same teaching is in different places in the Bible (As "bad" as that might sound to you at the moment)

Oops! I meant to say connecting different verses. That's voice-typing for ya.

Another great passage from Romans 2, that I think relates to when the Sabbath commandment as it stands in Exodus 20 was given:
For when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves.

Leaf473 · Jul 30, 2022

Did Cain have all the laws as they were given in Exodus 20?

The law related to murder changed after the flood:
Genesis 9
Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans shall their blood be shed.

I'm pretty sure it was different for Cain, because he tells God he's worried about whoever finds him will kill him.

BobRyan · Aug 1, 2022

Leaf473 said:
Did Cain have all the laws as they were given in Exodus 20?

The law related to murder changed after the flood:
Genesis 9
Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans shall their blood be shed.

I'm pretty sure it was different for Cain, because he tells God he's worried about whoever finds him will kill him.

Hmm - the thread is on "Creation Sabbath" and then your response is another "any topic other than Sabbath please"?? -- again?

Leaf473 · Aug 2, 2022

BobRyan said:
Hmm - the thread is on "Creation Sabbath" and then your response is another "any topic other than Sabbath please"?? -- again?

This relates to which laws Cain had, an idea also discussed by the OP.

BobRyan · Aug 2, 2022

Leaf473 said:
This relates to which laws Cain had, an idea also discussed by the OP.

Even you will admit however that the title is "Creation Sabbath origin" and not "all the other moral commands known to Cain" -- right?

As for the "law changing" -- your argument that Cain was afraid someone would take revenge on him for killing their son/brother/relative - is proof that the "law changed" -- makes no sense to me. And is not discussing the Sabbath origin - at all.

Leaf473 · Aug 3, 2022

BobRyan said:
Even you will admit however that the title is "Creation Sabbath origin" and not "all the other moral commands known to Cain" -- right?

As for the "law changing" -- your argument that Cain was afraid someone would take revenge on him for killing their son/brother/relative - is proof that the "law changed" -- makes no sense to me. And is not discussing the Sabbath origin - at all.

Yes, the title of the thread is
Creation Sabbath origin.
It is in the Sabbath and the law section, which is in the general theology section. So there is a cascading set of subjects, imo.

The OP brings up Cain and murder in post 10.

I believe the thinking is that since God talks to Cain about murder being a sin, Cain must have had a commandment about murder available to him. Since there is a commandment about murder in the ten commandments, then Cain must have had the entire ten commandments. Thus, Cain also had access to the Sabbath commandment. He must have gotten it from his parents. This then proves that the Sabbath commandment as it stands in the ten commandments was known to the very earliest humans.

(OP, if I haven't portrayed the reasoning properly, please correct it.)

There are several issues that I have with that line of reasoning. As you bring up in post 13, it relies heavily on "sin is transgression of the law".

If you like word for word correspondence between the original and English, please tell me how one gets that out of:
ἡ ἁμαρτία ἐστὶν ἡ ἀνομία

BobRyan · Aug 4, 2022

Leaf473 said:
Yes, the title of the thread is
Creation Sabbath origin.
It is in the Sabbath and the law section, which is in the general theology section.

True that does not mean one can bend every single Sabbath thread into "how to build an altar out of dirt" or "Who was supposed to kill Cain for his killing of Able".

Leaf473 said:
I believe the thinking is that since God talks to Cain about murder being a sin, Cain must have had a commandment about murder available to him. Since there is a commandment about murder in the ten commandments, then Cain must have had the entire ten commandments.

well it shows that commandments existed at that time - or it would not have been a sin.

But when "creation Sabbath origin" is mentioned the proof is never "because it was a sin for Cain to murder" -- but rather that actual Sabbath text of Gen 2:1-3 -- as we all know... the very thing you do not wish to focus on??

Leaf473 · Aug 4, 2022

BobRyan said:
True that does not mean one can bend every single Sabbath thread into "how to build an altar out of dirt" or "Who was supposed to kill Cain for his killing of Able".

well it shows that commandments existed at that time - or it would not have been a sin.

But when "creation Sabbath origin" is mentioned the proof is never "because it was a sin for Cain to murder" -- but rather that actual Sabbath text of Gen 2:1-3 -- as we all know... the very thing you do not wish to focus on??

Right, I'm not intending to bend the thread to talk about Cain and murder primarily. I'm still waiting for the OP to reply to my post 18, should they wish to do so.

Since then, the people talking about Cain and murder have been you and I.

If you're not interested in talking about Cain and murder anymore, then let's stop.

I agree that the Sabbath is first talked about in Genesis 2. But the Commandment is not stated until Exodus 20. I believe the OP agreed with that as well.

Peace be with you, my friend!

BobRyan · Aug 5, 2022

Gen 2:1-3 shows us the creation Sabbath in Genesis before the fall

Ex 20:11 confirms it in legal code.

And the result?

... these Sunday sources all affirm all TEN of the Ten Commandments for Christians and do so in a way that is consistent with the interpretation of the Sabbath in Eden that you see in most of the Sabbath keeping groups - having the start of the Sabbath for all mankind in Eden.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism

Icyspark · Aug 5, 2022

Leaf473 said:
I was looking at this:
Strong's Hebrew: 1288. בָּרַך (barak) -- to kneel, bless

Note that it's a primitive root, so there's going to be a lot of leeway imo.

Hi Leaf473,

I supplied a Bible dictionary definition for the word "bless". You provided a Strong's reference to the word which is translated as either to kneel, or bless. That doesn't seem too helpful. Let's recall that in a previous post above you wrote:

Leaf473 said:
Looking at the Hebrew word for bless, it looks like it can be used a lot of different ways.

If you're appealing to Strong's to support this contention then I don't see how you're arriving at this word being "used a lot of different ways."

Leaf473 said:
I went back and reread your post. It seems to rely heavily on the definition of sin as being Transgression of the law. Therefore, in order for God to be talking to Cain about sin, the law almost have been there.

An awful lot depends the famous passage, Sin is transgression of the law.

But if you look at that in the original, what's being equated with sin is Anomia, or not-law.

Let's recall that my appeal to this particular text was in response to your contention that "Cain wasn't punished for breaking the letter of a particular commandment, but for going against his knowledge of good and evil, which he inherited from his parents, as we all do." A knowledge of good and evil doesn't overtly translate to a knowledge of what constitutes "sin." Adam and Eve sinned when they transgressed the express command of God not to do a particular thing. If they were not aware that eating from that particular tree was forbidden would you think that God would find them guilty of sin? Also, if they were not aware of any command against eating from that specific tree do you think that God would be just in punishing them?

Leaf473 said:
You don't think we as humans inherited our knowledge of Good and evil from Adam and Eve?

God never intended us to know evil. Adam and Eve became aware of good and evil when they sinned (i.e. transgressed God's command). Likewise, each of us know sin when we also go against His revealed will. But as with Cain, God says that we must not let sin be our master.

Leaf473 said:
We are told the reasoning of Eve in the garden. She sees that the fruit is good for giving a person wisdom.

I believe Abel brings the first born, or something. A valuable offering. Cain brings some vegetables. That may have been the difference.

I understand you don't see the Sabbath as ceremonial. But it looks like you do believe some laws are ceremonial. Do the scriptures call those laws Ceremonial? I certainly can't find such a passage.

Regarding the ceremonial aspect of your comments above I'll refer you back to my previous post as I supplied several references to texts which contain ceremonial statutes.

Do you believe that the Sabbath is found in Genesis 2:1-3?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Leaf473 · Aug 6, 2022

Icyspark said:
Hi Leaf473,

I supplied a Bible dictionary definition for the word "bless". You provided a Strong's reference to the word which is translated as either to kneel, or bless. That doesn't seem too helpful. Let's recall that in a previous post above you wrote:

If you're appealing to Strong's to support this contention then I don't see how you're arriving at this word being "used a lot of different ways."

Let's recall that my appeal to this particular text was in response to your contention that "Cain wasn't punished for breaking the letter of a particular commandment, but for going against his knowledge of good and evil, which he inherited from his parents, as we all do." A knowledge of good and evil doesn't overtly translate to a knowledge of what constitutes "sin." Adam and Eve sinned when they transgressed the express command of God not to do a particular thing. If they were not aware that eating from that particular tree was forbidden would you think that God would find them guilty of sin? Also, if they were not aware of any command against eating from that specific tree do you think that God would be just in punishing them?

God never intended us to know evil. Adam and Eve became aware of good and evil when they sinned (i.e. transgressed God's command). Likewise, each of us know sin when we also go against His revealed will. But as with Cain, God says that we must not let sin be our master.

Regarding the ceremonial aspect of your comments above I'll refer you back to my previous post as I supplied several references to texts which contain ceremonial statutes.

Do you believe that the Sabbath is found in Genesis 2:1-3?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

I believe you'll scroll down further you'll come to the Brown-Driver-Briggs, a very detailed reference work.

Strong's Hebrew: 1288. בָּרַך (barak) -- to kneel, bless

Leaf473 · Aug 6, 2022

Icyspark said:
Hi Leaf473,

I supplied a Bible dictionary definition for the word "bless". You provided a Strong's reference to the word which is translated as either to kneel, or bless. That doesn't seem too helpful. Let's recall that in a previous post above you wrote:

If you're appealing to Strong's to support this contention then I don't see how you're arriving at this word being "used a lot of different ways."

Let's recall that my appeal to this particular text was in response to your contention that "Cain wasn't punished for breaking the letter of a particular commandment, but for going against his knowledge of good and evil, which he inherited from his parents, as we all do." A knowledge of good and evil doesn't overtly translate to a knowledge of what constitutes "sin." Adam and Eve sinned when they transgressed the express command of God not to do a particular thing. If they were not aware that eating from that particular tree was forbidden would you think that God would find them guilty of sin? Also, if they were not aware of any command against eating from that specific tree do you think that God would be just in punishing them?

God never intended us to know evil. Adam and Eve became aware of good and evil when they sinned (i.e. transgressed God's command). Likewise, each of us know sin when we also go against His revealed will. But as with Cain, God says that we must not let sin be our master.

Regarding the ceremonial aspect of your comments above I'll refer you back to my previous post as I supplied several references to texts which contain ceremonial statutes.

Do you believe that the Sabbath is found in Genesis 2:1-3?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

(I wasn't aware how long this post was. I'll answer it in parts.)

About sin being transgression of the law, I'm having difficulty following your reasoning.

Are you attempting to end with the conclusion that sin is transgression of the law... and nothing else?

That is, transgression of the law, and only transgression of the law, constitutes sin?

Leaf473 · Aug 6, 2022

Icyspark said:
Hi Leaf473,

I supplied a Bible dictionary definition for the word "bless". You provided a Strong's reference to the word which is translated as either to kneel, or bless. That doesn't seem too helpful. Let's recall that in a previous post above you wrote:

If you're appealing to Strong's to support this contention then I don't see how you're arriving at this word being "used a lot of different ways."

Let's recall that my appeal to this particular text was in response to your contention that "Cain wasn't punished for breaking the letter of a particular commandment, but for going against his knowledge of good and evil, which he inherited from his parents, as we all do." A knowledge of good and evil doesn't overtly translate to a knowledge of what constitutes "sin." Adam and Eve sinned when they transgressed the express command of God not to do a particular thing. If they were not aware that eating from that particular tree was forbidden would you think that God would find them guilty of sin? Also, if they were not aware of any command against eating from that specific tree do you think that God would be just in punishing them?

God never intended us to know evil. Adam and Eve became aware of good and evil when they sinned (i.e. transgressed God's command). Likewise, each of us know sin when we also go against His revealed will. But as with Cain, God says that we must not let sin be our master.

Regarding the ceremonial aspect of your comments above I'll refer you back to my previous post as I supplied several references to texts which contain ceremonial statutes.

Do you believe that the Sabbath is found in Genesis 2:1-3?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

About God never intending us to know evil,

I'm wary of saying what God's intentions are. But it does look like he intended at least the possibility that we would get the knowledge of Good and evil. That's why he put that tree in that garden.

I think we inherit the knowledge of good and evil from our parents. If we disagree on that, we probably won't agree on a definition of sin, either.

Leaf473 · Aug 6, 2022

Icyspark said:
Hi Leaf473,

I supplied a Bible dictionary definition for the word "bless". You provided a Strong's reference to the word which is translated as either to kneel, or bless. That doesn't seem too helpful. Let's recall that in a previous post above you wrote:

If you're appealing to Strong's to support this contention then I don't see how you're arriving at this word being "used a lot of different ways."

Let's recall that my appeal to this particular text was in response to your contention that "Cain wasn't punished for breaking the letter of a particular commandment, but for going against his knowledge of good and evil, which he inherited from his parents, as we all do." A knowledge of good and evil doesn't overtly translate to a knowledge of what constitutes "sin." Adam and Eve sinned when they transgressed the express command of God not to do a particular thing. If they were not aware that eating from that particular tree was forbidden would you think that God would find them guilty of sin? Also, if they were not aware of any command against eating from that specific tree do you think that God would be just in punishing them?

God never intended us to know evil. Adam and Eve became aware of good and evil when they sinned (i.e. transgressed God's command). Likewise, each of us know sin when we also go against His revealed will. But as with Cain, God says that we must not let sin be our master.

Regarding the ceremonial aspect of your comments above I'll refer you back to my previous post as I supplied several references to texts which contain ceremonial statutes.

Do you believe that the Sabbath is found in Genesis 2:1-3?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

About some laws being ceremonial,

I believe the question is:
Do the scriptures call those laws Ceremonial?

It's not a matter of finding some laws which a person believes are ceremonial. Rather, do the scriptures call those laws ceremonial.

iirc, I did a word search on the King James Bible looking for the word Ceremonial... it doesn't occur.

Leaf473 · Aug 6, 2022

Icyspark said:
Hi Leaf473,

I supplied a Bible dictionary definition for the word "bless". You provided a Strong's reference to the word which is translated as either to kneel, or bless. That doesn't seem too helpful. Let's recall that in a previous post above you wrote:

If you're appealing to Strong's to support this contention then I don't see how you're arriving at this word being "used a lot of different ways."

Let's recall that my appeal to this particular text was in response to your contention that "Cain wasn't punished for breaking the letter of a particular commandment, but for going against his knowledge of good and evil, which he inherited from his parents, as we all do." A knowledge of good and evil doesn't overtly translate to a knowledge of what constitutes "sin." Adam and Eve sinned when they transgressed the express command of God not to do a particular thing. If they were not aware that eating from that particular tree was forbidden would you think that God would find them guilty of sin? Also, if they were not aware of any command against eating from that specific tree do you think that God would be just in punishing them?

God never intended us to know evil. Adam and Eve became aware of good and evil when they sinned (i.e. transgressed God's command). Likewise, each of us know sin when we also go against His revealed will. But as with Cain, God says that we must not let sin be our master.

Regarding the ceremonial aspect of your comments above I'll refer you back to my previous post as I supplied several references to texts which contain ceremonial statutes.

Do you believe that the Sabbath is found in Genesis 2:1-3?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Do I believe that the Sabbath is found in Genesis 2:1-3?

The Sabbath day is there, the Sabbath commandment is not... At least not as it is given in Exodus 20.

Freth · Aug 6, 2022

Let's address this Cain/Abel argument.

How did Cain and Abel know to bring an offering to the Lord in the first place?

Genesis 4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.

Genesis 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering.

Did Abel just get lucky and guess a blood offering would be accepted by God? Or did Abel know ahead of time?

God even warned Cain before he slew his brother.

Genesis 4:6-8 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

Strong's H2403 sin (ḥaṭṭā'āṯ): sin, sinful

Conclusion: They were intimately aware of the definition of sin according to God's law, which includes Sabbath observance. They knew not to murder, they knew the correct offering, they knew right from wrong, because God spoke to them and reasoned with them directly, as has been shown in Genesis 4:6-8.

Leaf473 · Aug 8, 2022

Freth said:
Let's address this Cain/Abel argument.

How did Cain and Abel know to bring an offering to the Lord in the first place?

Genesis 4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.

Genesis 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering.

Did Abel just get lucky and guess a blood offering would be accepted by God? Or did Abel know ahead of time?

God even warned Cain before he slew his brother.

Genesis 4:6-8 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

Strong's H2403 sin (ḥaṭṭā'āṯ): sin, sinful

Conclusion: They were intimately aware of the definition of sin according to God's law, which includes Sabbath observance. They knew not to murder, they knew the correct offering, they knew right from wrong, because God spoke to them and reasoned with them directly, as has been shown in Genesis 4:6-8.

Hi Freth, Good to hear from you.

My thinking is that Cain and Abel knew about sacrifice In the same way that the Aztecs knew about it before the Spanish came. Or the people in ancient India knew.

Gentiles who don't have the law still have a general idea of God's nature, and ideas about sacrifice probably flow out of that.

That's my thinking at this time, but I'm open to reconsidering.

Freth · Aug 8, 2022

Leaf473 said:
Hi Freth, Good to hear from you.

My thinking is that Cain and Abel knew about sacrifice In the same way that the Aztecs knew about it before the Spanish came. Or the people in ancient India knew.

Gentiles who don't have the law still have a general idea of God's nature, and ideas about sacrifice probably flow out of that.

That's my thinking at this time, but I'm open to reconsidering.

Hi Leaf.

Scripture does say God spoke to them directly, and shows God reasoning with Cain concerning sin (Genesis 4:6-8). I don't think God would leave out a whole series of important instructions concerning their relationship, if He was having intimate conversations with them.

Best regards.

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