Do gender roles still apply today?

Paulos23

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It’s not okay to me that it’s decided on a federal level. The state should get to decide what is legal marriage.

@Paulos23 What I think counts as a marriage: one man and one woman, whether they are Christian or not.
I was talking more about the roles in the marriage, but I see you are just focusing on one thing. The thing is, I have seen group marriages that work as well, same with same sex marriages.

Society does work with them in it, so I don't agree with the one man and one women model being the bases of society since I have seen it isn't.
 
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Ken-1122

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If a person who is born male transgender to female or a person who is born female transgender to male dies under circumstances which prevent medical personnel from determining the gender by external physical examination how will they determine the gender?
The only remaining way is skeletal structure and DNA, Science has not found a way to alter either one of those.
If Gender is restricted to whatever is going on inside of your head, upon death they do not determine that type of gender, they determine your biological sex at that time.
 
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RDKirk

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I was talking more about the roles in the marriage, but I see you are just focusing on one thing. The thing is, I have seen group marriages that work as well, same with same sex marriages.

Society does work with them in it, so I don't agree with the one man and one women model being the bases of society since I have seen it isn't.

Exceptions don't invalidate the rule, they prove it.

We've already got ample evidence that persons raised single-parent families are proportionately less successful than those raised with both parents in the home.

And how successfully, really, do you think society would proceed if same sex marriages were the "basis for society" rather than male-female marriages?

Exceptions only survive within the margin above survival that the successful social bases can establish.
 
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RDKirk

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I just wrote this in another place:

We already know that race is a social construct. For that matter, we know that ancient societies didn't recognize race. It's a fairly modern social construct that was fairly recently established.

If gender is also a social construct, it's a darned old one and a universal social construct at that...much older and more universal than race has ever been.

Which means that if being merely a social construct means one's gender is purely a matter of what one wishes it to be...then race as a social construct is even more negligible. I can identify as a white man just as logically as I can identify as a woman.

However, just because we've designated something a "social construction" does not mean that it's negligible. Traffic laws are certainly social constructs--they aren't even consistent from state to state--yet nobody would want to drive on the roads with everyone considering traffic laws to be negligible. Neighborhood HOAs are certainly social constructions, and IMO most HOAs are 'way overboard...but nobody wants to live in Chiraq, either. The people living in Chiraq don't even want to live in Chiraq.
 
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PloverWing

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Larry Elder makes the case that even the state should stay out of the marriage business and leave it to non-government institutions.

I do, in fact, see marriage (for Christians) primarily as a church Sacrament, and only secondarily as a state matter. In that way, I'm sympathetic to the idea that the state should stay out of it. My Episcopal Church could marry whichever couples it sees fit, and we wouldn't have to wait for the Congress or the Supreme Court to agree with us. But there are a couple of complications that I can think of:

1) Nonreligious people should also have access to marriage, even though they're not part of a religious community.

2) There are legal matters that commonly arise in marriage. Usually, much of the couple's property is held in common, and there are legal policies surrounding this property. Custody of children is another matter the state may be interested in: who has the legal right to make decisions for the children before they are adults? Medical: Who is permitted to visit a patient in the hospital, and to make decisions for them if they are incapacitated? A lot of this is done automatically with civil marriage.
 
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RDKirk

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I do, in fact, see marriage (for Christians) primarily as a church Sacrament, and only secondarily as a state matter. In that way, I'm sympathetic to the idea that the state should stay out of it. My Episcopal Church could marry whichever couples it sees fit, and we wouldn't have to wait for the Congress or the Supreme Court to agree with us. But there are a couple of complications that I can think of:

1) Nonreligious people should also have access to marriage, even though they're not part of a religious community.

2) There are legal matters that commonly arise in marriage. Usually, much of the couple's property is held in common, and there are legal policies surrounding this property. Custody of children is another matter the state may be interested in: who has the legal right to make decisions for the children before they are adults? Medical: Who is permitted to visit a patient in the hospital, and to make decisions for them if they are incapacitated? A lot of this is done automatically with civil marriage.

Civil contracts are necessary to handle civil requirements. One of the great problems in divorce court is that a marriage license is a very lousy contract. The man and the woman (even in the most successful couplings) usually have vastly different ideas of the performances required, those change over time, and change dramatically with a decision to dissolve the marriage. Traditional Jewish marriage contracts were exceedingly detailed in the expected performance of each party of the marriage.

"Marriage" should be outside government, but if the couple expects government and industry to enforce any aspect their relationship, then they need to go to their lawyers and have an appropriate civil contract drawn up.
 
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Paulos23

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Exceptions don't invalidate the rule, they prove it.

We've already got ample evidence that persons raised single-parent families are proportionately less successful than those raised with both parents in the home.

And how successfully, really, do you think society would proceed if same sex marriages were the "basis for society" rather than male-female marriages?

Exceptions only survive within the margin above survival that the successful social bases can establish.
Fine, but that is no reason to remove or not allow the exceptions.
 
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Der Alte

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If Gender is restricted to whatever is going on inside of your head, upon death they do not determine that type of gender, they determine your biological sex at that time.
Exactly. And so far so-called science has not found a way to change that. As for validity I refer to 2 recent events. A born male transgender to female, HS student sexually assaulted a born female student in a rest room. The school responded by doing nothing but transferring the student to another school where said student sexually assaulted another female student.
The other incident a born male transgender to female prisoner impregnated two female prisoners.
In neither of those cases was the central figure actually a female in any physical sense. Both were fully functional males.
 
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Gregorikos

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Firstly, what is meant by the term “gender roles”? Do these roles pertain only to what is possible biologically? For example, some men produce seed, but no man produces eggs. Likewise, no woman produces seed, but some women produce eggs. Maybe it’s irrelevant to some because they think gender and sex mean different things. Christians, on the other hand, may have another consideration in mind. What about the institution of marriage designed by God to be between a man and a woman?

[But now, to get into the semantics of it. Do I acknowledge that some understand sex and gender to mean different things? Yes, I do. But that does not mean that I’m going to concede to the argument: If I agree that gender and sex mean different things, then I’m saying gender theory is correct. But the fact is, not all dictionary definitions agree on this.]

I would argue that yes gender roles are still relevant today. Some might counter this with a verse in Galatians where it says “there is neither…male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” (See Gal 3:28) This is meaning something different. The apostle Paul was affirming what Jesus said, “an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth” (Jn 4:23). According to the Reformation Study Bible, “The ceremonial and sacrificial aspects of the law were…temporary and provisional.” So, Paul was instead emphasizing spiritual equality. The apostle also had in several letters, discussion on roles of husband and wife. (See 1 Co 11:3; Eph 5:21-33; Col 3:18-19; 1 Pe 3:1-7)

So again, Paul was emphasizing spiritual equality. This spiritual equality is not incompatible “with the God-ordained roles of headship and submission in the church, society, and the home.” (MacArthur Study Bible)

In other words, I do not see it as “gender” vs “nature”. Rather, the DNA inherent in males and females determines who we are; the roles we should live by are determined by the gender that our DNA says that we are.* Now, when I say “roles”, I mean conduct, and things that are commonly true of men and women.

Now when the Bible makes a prohibition of transvestitism (Deut. 22:5), some argue that this is a case against women in combat roles. The reason behind this interpretation is that women are the life-givers, nurturers. Also, it seems women don’t really have the issue of crossdressing generally, so it’s not to do with jeans. Quoting the Reformation Study Bible, “Women were not to adopt the accoutrements of the male (e.g., carrying weapons), and men were not to dress as women. The symbols of gender difference were to be respected, and while such symbols vary over time and from culture to culture, the principle of gender distinction remains (Gen. 1:27; cf. 1 Tim. 2:13).”

Men are to be leaders in the household
I’ve often wondered what that looks like. I know this is not to mean we condone men acting like tyrants. From a devotional titled, Spousal Roles, from Ligonier, “…that he will remember that she is a person and not to be run roughshod over when decisions are made. He will respect her opinion and work to compromise when necessary. Nevertheless, the two will not agree at times and in these cases the wife is called to submit insofar as she does not sin by doing so.” I also think that verses here, Ephesians 5:25-26, mean that men of their household are to take the initiative in godly devotion. While verse 21 does say that Christians are to submit to one another, Paul also teaches wives to submit to husbands, as to the Lord (v. 22).

Roles for the church
In the same way, pastors/elders are to be males. Paul, instructing Timothy about the office of overseer, rules out the polygamist, “the husband of one wife” (1Ti 3:2). Why is he only addressing male polygamists? It’s because he already made it clear in the previous chapter that women are not to be overseers/pastors/elders (and yes, I take all those words to mean the same thing). However, believing women are very much encouraged to preach to unbelievers; you don’t have to hold the title of pastor/teacher in order to evangelize the lost.

Societal roles
So if these “roles” relate to what is a general rule about men and women, why is the standard applied across the board? Some women are stronger than some men. However, it sounds like a terrible idea to have women drafted into war. So then, if men wield the sword and the civil magistrate wields the sword (see Ro 13:4), then does this apply to mayor, governor, city council, and Supreme Court justice to be only men? I’m just explaining how some interpret this. It’s relatively new that I’ve heard this perspective.

Conclusion
But I thought I might end with this, an article by Susan Hunt, The Goodness of Gender. —I asked our eight-year-old and eleven-year-old granddaughters, "Who is better—boys or girls?" There was immediate consensus: "Girls!" We had a Titus 2 sit-down. Ask them now and they will tell you, "Boys are better at being boys, girls are better at being girls, we are equal but different, and it is very good because God said so.”—

*But what about intersex conditions? some may counter. Doesn’t this make it uncertain that there are only two sexes? While there are rare diseases that make it appear that some males have XX chromosome pairs, or females with XY, these aren’t genuine mismatched chromosome pairs in the truest sense. Further analysis allows us to know what’s really happening. Swyers happens, when a female has what appears to be an XY sex chromosome pair, caused by mutation or deletion on important parts "of the segment of the Y chromosome containing the SRY gene." [quote by rarediseases.org] With de la Chapelle syndrome, a male with an XX pair, a translocation occurs, a piece of the SRY gene attaches with an X chromosome. Androgen insensitivity syndrome occurs in genetic males (XY). “Because their bodies are unable to respond to certain male sex hormones (called androgens), they may have mostly female external sex characteristics or signs of both male and female sexual development.” (From MedlinePlus) These conditions may not be noticed until puberty; they are infertile.

The very concept of "Gender Roles" was invented by George Knight III in his 1977 book New Testament Teaching on the Role Relationship of Men and Women. No theologian in the history of the church had ever framed it that way before.

This was done because prior to the 1960s, it was universally thought that women were inferior to men. That's why women couldn't vote prior to 1920 in our country, why they couldn't have their own credit until 1974, etc. It was unthinkable that women could have authority or access to the same privileges as men, because women were thought to be not up to it. And then people realized that wasn't at all true.

So Knight, who prompted John Piper and Wayne Grudem to join him, constructed brand new theology that would maintain the 1950s culture they preferred. They proclaimed women were equal, but that God had ordained certain roles for the sexes. These roles placed limitations on what women could do, but no limitations, at least in theory, on what a man could do.

So..."do gender roles apply today?" - They never did. They were made up from the start.
 
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RDKirk

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The very concept of "Gender Roles" was invented by George Knight III in his 1977 book New Testament Teaching on the Role Relationship of Men and Women. No theologian in the history of the church had ever framed it that way before.

This was done because prior to the 1960s, it was universally thought that women were inferior to men. That's why women couldn't vote prior to 1920 in our country, why they couldn't have their own credit until 1974, etc. It was unthinkable that women could have authority or access to the same privileges as men, because women were thought to be not up to it. And then people realized that wasn't at all true.

So Knight, who prompted John Piper and Wayne Grudem to join him, constructed brand new theology that would maintain the 1950s culture they preferred. They proclaimed women were equal, but that God had ordained certain roles for the sexes. These roles placed limitations on what women could do, but no limitations, at least in theory, on what a man could do.

So..."do gender roles apply today?" - They never did. They were made up from the start.

What you've pointed out is that George Knight was a man who codified gender roles, not that he invented them. He certainly did not...as you yourself demonstrated by pointing out gender roles that existed before George Knight. Knight just codified them in a theological context.

I suspect we can find writers back in the Victorian era who tried their hands at codifying gender roles for British society.

The concept of an "age of majority" is also a social construct...simply made up. Different states, different countries have made up their own different ages of majority. As long as we're disregarding social constructions, why not disregard ages of majority? Why not disregard rules prohibiting a 45-year-old man talking a 14-year-old girl into sleeping with him?
 
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eleos1954

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Firstly, what is meant by the term “gender roles”? Do these roles pertain only to what is possible biologically? For example, some men produce seed, but no man produces eggs. Likewise, no woman produces seed, but some women produce eggs. Maybe it’s irrelevant to some because they think gender and sex mean different things. Christians, on the other hand, may have another consideration in mind. What about the institution of marriage designed by God to be between a man and a woman?

[But now, to get into the semantics of it. Do I acknowledge that some understand sex and gender to mean different things? Yes, I do. But that does not mean that I’m going to concede to the argument: If I agree that gender and sex mean different things, then I’m saying gender theory is correct. But the fact is, not all dictionary definitions agree on this.]

I would argue that yes gender roles are still relevant today. Some might counter this with a verse in Galatians where it says “there is neither…male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” (See Gal 3:28) This is meaning something different. The apostle Paul was affirming what Jesus said, “an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth” (Jn 4:23). According to the Reformation Study Bible, “The ceremonial and sacrificial aspects of the law were…temporary and provisional.” So, Paul was instead emphasizing spiritual equality. The apostle also had in several letters, discussion on roles of husband and wife. (See 1 Co 11:3; Eph 5:21-33; Col 3:18-19; 1 Pe 3:1-7)

So again, Paul was emphasizing spiritual equality. This spiritual equality is not incompatible “with the God-ordained roles of headship and submission in the church, society, and the home.” (MacArthur Study Bible)

In other words, I do not see it as “gender” vs “nature”. Rather, the DNA inherent in males and females determines who we are; the roles we should live by are determined by the gender that our DNA says that we are.* Now, when I say “roles”, I mean conduct, and things that are commonly true of men and women.

Now when the Bible makes a prohibition of transvestitism (Deut. 22:5), some argue that this is a case against women in combat roles. The reason behind this interpretation is that women are the life-givers, nurturers. Also, it seems women don’t really have the issue of crossdressing generally, so it’s not to do with jeans. Quoting the Reformation Study Bible, “Women were not to adopt the accoutrements of the male (e.g., carrying weapons), and men were not to dress as women. The symbols of gender difference were to be respected, and while such symbols vary over time and from culture to culture, the principle of gender distinction remains (Gen. 1:27; cf. 1 Tim. 2:13).”

Men are to be leaders in the household
I’ve often wondered what that looks like. I know this is not to mean we condone men acting like tyrants. From a devotional titled, Spousal Roles, from Ligonier, “…that he will remember that she is a person and not to be run roughshod over when decisions are made. He will respect her opinion and work to compromise when necessary. Nevertheless, the two will not agree at times and in these cases the wife is called to submit insofar as she does not sin by doing so.” I also think that verses here, Ephesians 5:25-26, mean that men of their household are to take the initiative in godly devotion. While verse 21 does say that Christians are to submit to one another, Paul also teaches wives to submit to husbands, as to the Lord (v. 22).

Roles for the church
In the same way, pastors/elders are to be males. Paul, instructing Timothy about the office of overseer, rules out the polygamist, “the husband of one wife” (1Ti 3:2). Why is he only addressing male polygamists? It’s because he already made it clear in the previous chapter that women are not to be overseers/pastors/elders (and yes, I take all those words to mean the same thing). However, believing women are very much encouraged to preach to unbelievers; you don’t have to hold the title of pastor/teacher in order to evangelize the lost.

Societal roles
So if these “roles” relate to what is a general rule about men and women, why is the standard applied across the board? Some women are stronger than some men. However, it sounds like a terrible idea to have women drafted into war. So then, if men wield the sword and the civil magistrate wields the sword (see Ro 13:4), then does this apply to mayor, governor, city council, and Supreme Court justice to be only men? I’m just explaining how some interpret this. It’s relatively new that I’ve heard this perspective.

Conclusion
But I thought I might end with this, an article by Susan Hunt, The Goodness of Gender. —I asked our eight-year-old and eleven-year-old granddaughters, "Who is better—boys or girls?" There was immediate consensus: "Girls!" We had a Titus 2 sit-down. Ask them now and they will tell you, "Boys are better at being boys, girls are better at being girls, we are equal but different, and it is very good because God said so.”—

*But what about intersex conditions? some may counter. Doesn’t this make it uncertain that there are only two sexes? While there are rare diseases that make it appear that some males have XX chromosome pairs, or females with XY, these aren’t genuine mismatched chromosome pairs in the truest sense. Further analysis allows us to know what’s really happening. Swyers happens, when a female has what appears to be an XY sex chromosome pair, caused by mutation or deletion on important parts "of the segment of the Y chromosome containing the SRY gene." [quote by rarediseases.org] With de la Chapelle syndrome, a male with an XX pair, a translocation occurs, a piece of the SRY gene attaches with an X chromosome. Androgen insensitivity syndrome occurs in genetic males (XY). “Because their bodies are unable to respond to certain male sex hormones (called androgens), they may have mostly female external sex characteristics or signs of both male and female sexual development.” (From MedlinePlus) These conditions may not be noticed until puberty; they are infertile.

gen·der

noun
  1. 1.
    either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones. The term is also used more broadly to denote a range of identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female (chromosomes).
According to science biologically it is XX or XY determines male or female

Whatever set of chromosomes a person has when they are born cannot be changed. This is because chromosomes are in all the cells that make up our bodies. To change a person's chromosomes would mean changing trillions of cells!

two aspects of gender .... social/cultural differences or biological differences.
 
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Gregorikos

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What you've pointed out is that George Knight was a man who codified gender roles, not that he invented them. He certainly did not...as you yourself demonstrated by pointing out gender roles that existed before George Knight. Knight just codified them in a theological context.

I suspect we can find writers back in the Victorian era who tried their hands at codifying gender roles for British society.

The concept of an "age of majority" is also a social construct...simply made up. Different states, different countries have made up their own different ages of majority. As long as we're disregarding social constructions, why not disregard ages of majority? Why not disregard rules prohibiting a 45-year-old man talking a 14-year-old girl into sleeping with him?


The point though is that, though the outcome is the same, the means of arriving there is completely different. Thus the theology behind the subjugation of women that exists today did not exist 60 years ago, and the former theology was abandoned.
 
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RDKirk

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The point though is that, though the outcome is the same, the means of arriving there is completely different. Thus the theology behind the subjugation of women that exists today did not exist 60 years ago, and the former theology was abandoned.

But you haven't disproven a place for gender roles.
 
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I do, in fact, see marriage (for Christians) primarily as a church Sacrament, and only secondarily as a state matter. In that way, I'm sympathetic to the idea that the state should stay out of it. My Episcopal Church could marry whichever couples it sees fit, and we wouldn't have to wait for the Congress or the Supreme Court to agree with us. But there are a couple of complications that I can think of:

1) Nonreligious people should also have access to marriage, even though they're not part of a religious community.

2) There are legal matters that commonly arise in marriage. Usually, much of the couple's property is held in common, and there are legal policies surrounding this property. Custody of children is another matter the state may be interested in: who has the legal right to make decisions for the children before they are adults? Medical: Who is permitted to visit a patient in the hospital, and to make decisions for them if they are incapacitated? A lot of this is done automatically with civil marriage.
You make a really great point, and it only shows that I haven't thought this through all that much.
So, this was an article back in 2012. Here’s what it had to say— “Because of the intimate connection between marriage and children, the move to privatize marriage is in essence a move to privatize parenting. If we wish to preserve the rights of children and limit the state’s power over the family, then we should oppose the privatization of marriage.”
Should government get out of the marriage business?
I’ve been kind of flip-flopping on this subject. First, I think the state should be involved in marriage, then I think it should be privatized, but now I’m thinking the government should be involved, the only consideration now is should the state be involved or should it be on a federal level.
 
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RDKirk

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You make a really great point, and it only shows that I haven't thought this through all that much.
So, this was an article back in 2012. Here’s what it had to say— “Because of the intimate connection between marriage and children, the move to privatize marriage is in essence a move to privatize parenting. If we wish to preserve the rights of children and limit the state’s power over the family, then we should oppose the privatization of marriage.”
Should government get out of the marriage business?
I’ve been kind of flip-flopping on this subject. First, I think the state should be involved in marriage, then I think it should be privatized, but now I’m thinking the government should be involved, the only consideration now is should the state be involved or should it be on a federal level.

As I mentioned before, the state should get out of the "marriage" game. People who want to be considered socially Mr and Mrs or Mr and Mr or Mrs and Mrs or Mr and Mrs and Mrs, or whatever, should go to whatever clergycritter they can find to do the ceremony. No state involvement.

But if they expect the state to enforce their union, or if they expect industry to recognize it, then they have to get to a lawyer and have a domestic partnership contract written up with all the proper legalize that codifies exactly what is expected of each party in the partnership and how everything will be divvied up if/when they divorce.
 
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As I mentioned before, the state should get out of the "marriage" game. People who want to be considered socially Mr and Mrs or Mr and Mr or Mrs and Mrs or Mr and Mrs and Mrs, or whatever, should go to whatever clergycritter they can find to do the ceremony. No state involvement.

But if they expect the state to enforce their union, or if they expect industry to recognize it, then they have to get to a lawyer and have a domestic partnership contract written up with all the proper legalize that codifies exactly what is expected of each party in the partnership and how everything will be divvied up if/when they divorce.
Larry Elder has some great talking points on politics, but I’ve only heard his side on the matter of the government’s role in legislating the definition of marriage. The first time I heard him mention that it should be the state’s right was during an interview; Dave Rubin invited him on his show (2016). Then, I found this old article about how he thought marriage should be privatized (2004). Maybe his views have changed. However, what I need to keep in mind is that Larry Elder is in favor of legalizing same-sex marriage, and I’m not in favor of that. If I’m being consistent here, it should be the federal government’s role to constitute what is marriage. But if not, then I agree that it can be the state’s right. The reason for this is because I take in account the biblical definition (Genesis 2:24) which makes it clear that it’s a creation ordinance; it applies to the whole human race. Adam and Eve were a prototype for all humanity. Jesus said that marriage has been defined this way “from the beginning” (Matt 19:4). Lifelong marriage between one man and one woman is God’s design for all people and all cultures in all times on earth.
 
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RDKirk

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Larry Elder has some great talking points on politics, but I’ve only heard his side on the matter of the government’s role in legislating the definition of marriage. The first time I heard him mention that it should be the state’s right was during an interview; Dave Rubin invited him on his show (2016). Then, I found this old article about how he thought marriage should be privatized (2004). Maybe his views have changed. However, what I need to keep in mind is that Larry Elder is in favor of legalizing same-sex marriage, and I’m not in favor of that. If I’m being consistent here, it should be the federal government’s role to constitute what is marriage. But if not, then I agree that it can be the state’s right. The reason for this is because I take in account the biblical definition (Genesis 2:24) which makes it clear that it’s a creation ordinance; it applies to the whole human race. Adam and Eve were a prototype for all humanity. Jesus said that marriage has been defined this way “from the beginning” (Matt 19:4). Lifelong marriage between one man and one woman is God’s design for all people and all cultures in all times on earth.

I don't think you got my point. If marriage is an ordnance of God, then the state has no part in the definition of "marriage," any more than the state has part in the definition of "communion" or "baptism."

But the state certainly has a part in civil partnership contracts drawn between two legal adults, whatever kind of contracts those legal adults want to draw up.
 
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Gregorikos

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Dec 31, 2019
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But you haven't disproven a place for gender roles.

I didn't have to. The fact that current complementarian theology is not the historic view of the church will give a wise man pause.
 
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