Will unborn babies be Raptured out of the wombs of ungodly women?

ewq1938

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Revelation 11 does not say the Great Tribulation is over when the 7th trumpet is sounded.


Matthew 24 says Christ returns after the Great Tribulation is over. Christ returns at the last of 7 trumps, and the 7th and last trump is mentioned in Revelation 11 showing the Great Tribulation is over by the time the 7th trump sounds. Only at that time does the wrath of God begin, Revelation 11, which is when the vials of God's wrath are poured.
 
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Douggg

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Matthew 24 says Christ returns after the Great Tribulation is over.
Jesus returns to end the Great Tribulation by casting the false prophet and beast into the lake of fire, and having Satan cast into the bottomless pit.

And destroying the armies that have gathered to make war on Him.

Christ returns at the last of 7 trumps
What scripture says that?

and the 7th and last trump is mentioned in Revelation 11 showing the Great Tribulation is over by the time the 7th trump sounds.
No the 7th trumpet sounds just after the two witnesses are killed. The 1263 days of the two witnesses testimony is the first half of the 7 years.

It is in the days of the 7th angel sounding that the mystery of God that he declared to his servants the prophets will be fulfilled.

The 7th angel sounds and the process of taking the kingdoms of this world out from under Satan and his angels control will begin.

That process take a time/times/half time. Basically the second half of the seven years.

Their kingdom is called Mystery Babylon the Great. It's fall is Revelation 18. 24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Jesus's Second Coming is in Revelation 19. No trumpet in Revelation 19. But it starts of with rejoicing over the demise of Babylon the Great.

Only at that time does the wrath of God begin, Revelation 11, which is when the vials of God's wrath are poured.
It is in the days of the 7th angel sounding that the vials of God's wrath are poured out. During the second half of the Great Tribulation.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Assuming children are Raptured because they are before the age of accountability (generally believed to be up to 7 years old, where they could be too young to understand right and wrong and salvation, ....) and they are Raptured. Would this go down to unborn children as well?
Would the mothers of these children end up with their womb/stomach opened by the Rapture, or would the Rapture only apply with children who are outside of the womb and are birthed?

Unfortunately, children who are born after the Rapture can't be Raptured because it already passed? However, the good news is, if the age of accountability is 7, then no children will likely reach 7 years before the battle of Armageddon if sticking with a strict 7 year time-line and they may be next in line to populate the world during the Millenium Kingdom!

No, the only children raptured who have not come to the age of accountably are the children of a married couple who are believers, or the children of a married couple who have at least one believing parent, which makes the children "clean", as Paul wrote.
A believing pregnant mother and her baby are raptured together, wherher she is married or not. If there is a living father and he is not a believer, he is left.
If a woman is pregnant and is raptured, why would she not carry her pregnancy to term, in heaven? All raptured children of believing parents will grow up in heaven, though there is no more marraige in heaven, in the body made for glory, the bodies of the raptured are all changed to the new man flesh, named Israel, not Adam, at the rapture, and their bodies will be their own. The raptured bodies eat, sleep, talk, fellowship, worship....as themselves, but no more marriage in those bodies changed to glory.
I believe aborted babies and all murdered children or ones who died before thier time get their own bodies back, made in the image the New man, with the new man name, and grow up.
 
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Juan777

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No, the only children raptured who have not come to the age of accountably are the children of a married couple who are believers, or the children of a married couple who have at least one believing parent, which makes the children "clean", as Paul wrote.
A believing pregnant mother and her baby are raptured together, wherher she is married or not. If there is a living father and he is not a believer, he is left.
If a woman is pregnant and is raptured, why would she not carry her pregnancy to term, in heaven? All raptured children of believing parents will grow up in heaven, though there is no more marraige in heaven, in the body made for glory, the bodies of the raptured are all changed to the new man flesh, named Israel, not Adam, at the rapture, and their bodies will be their own. The raptured bodies eat, sleep, talk, fellowship, worship....as themselves, but no more marriage in those bodies changed to glory.
I believe aborted babies and all murdered children or ones who died before thier time get their own bodies back, made in the image the New man, with the new man name, and grow up.

Thank you. This might be the only post that at least responded directly to the original question with seriousness. I thought the children and unborn children of unbelievers and ungodly reprobates were also taken, but with this info, I could be mistaken. However, that would be cruel to them, but it could also shock them into repentance too if they knew that God took them like that. It may be out of God's character to do that to lead people to repentance.
 
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ewq1938

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What scripture says that?

The 7th trump of Revelation is the same last trump Paul speaks of because that's when the dead in Christ are raised along with his second coming.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Here we have the second coming associated with a trumpet, and the dead in Christ rising, and the rapture.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


And here we have a trumpet called the last trump, and the dead in Christ being raised. This clearly is at the second coming as the other verse makes clear. The dead in Christ rise and Christ returns. So all we have to do is find out which end times trumpet Christ returns in:

Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Here we have the end of the Tribulation, and the sounding of the last of the 7 trumps. Though not explicitly mentioned here, I think the language does highly imply Christ's second coming is at this time. The second coming is directly tied to the time for wrath:

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


We see this wrath in greater detail here:


Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

So, the "last trump" is the same as the last of the 7 trumpets of Revelation and it is when Christ returns, the dead in Christ rise and the rapture all take place.



Jesus's Second Coming is in Revelation 19. No trumpet in Revelation 19. But it starts of with rejoicing over the demise of Babylon the Great.

Of course there is no trumpet there. It sounds before any Revelation 19 events happen.

It is in the days of the 7th angel sounding that the vials of God's wrath are poured out. During the second half of the Great Tribulation.

The vials are not poured before the 7th trumpet. The verse says the mystery of God is finished in t3h days leading up to the 7th trump, not anything about the vials of wrath.

Also, the Great Tribulation is never said to have a middle, with a first and last part like this. It is 42 months, nothing happens in the middle that is special or written about. It is not known or called a tribulation prior to the 42 months (the tribulation is not 7 years long). God's wrath comes after the Great Tribulation is over, not any moment before that, Revelation 11.
 
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And Pre-trib. When the rapture is separate from the second coming and wrath, Pre-trib can and does exist. Darby merely built upon something that had long existed.

Yes, I can see the evolution of the concept from a Pre-Wrath separation of a single Coming into 2 parts to a single Coming separated by 7 years. But again, Pretrib also posits Imminency *at any time* in the age! You completely ignore that. Where are pre-Darby teachings, with any theological acceptance, indicating that Christ can come *at any time in history,* and *prior to the beginning of Antichrist's reign?*

A big difference between Mid-Trib and Pre-Trib is that Mid-Trib continues to connect the Rapture of the Church to Christ's Coming to destroy Antichrist. And Pre-Trib completely severs the connection by making Christ's Coming *before* the beginning of Antichrist's reign!

Previous examples of 2 phases of Christ's Coming all had to do with taking place *within the scope* of Antichrist's reign in order to show that Christ is coming to *destroy Antichrist,* just as Paul teaches in 2 Thes 2. But when Pre-Trib separates Christ's Coming for the Church from even the beginning of Antichrist's reign, then the whole idea of his coming to *destroy Antichrist* is lost!

2 Thes 2.3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction... 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.
 
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All of the pre-Darby examples have a rapture before the second coming. This is Pre-trib, in various forms. Each is fairly unique and so is Darby's but they all share a connection. To say Pre-trib began with Darby is wrong. Sure, he had his own version but Pre-trib in various forms existed long before Darby.



Yes, I can see the evolution of the concept from a Pre-Wrath separation of a single Coming into 2 parts to a single Coming separated by 7 years. But again, Pretrib also posits Imminency *at any time* in the age! You completely ignore that. Where are pre-Darby teachings, with any theological acceptance, indicating that Christ can come *at any time in history,* and *prior to the beginning of Antichrist's reign?*

A big difference between Mid-Trib and Pre-Trib is that Mid-Trib continues to connect the Rapture of the Church to Christ's Coming to destroy Antichrist. And Pre-Trib completely severs the connection by making Christ's Coming *before* the beginning of Antichrist's reign!

Previous examples of 2 phases of Christ's Coming all had to do with taking place *within the scope* of Antichrist's reign in order to show that Christ is coming to *destroy Antichrist,* just as Paul teaches in 2 Thes 2. But when Pre-Trib separates Christ's Coming for the Church from even the beginning of Antichrist's reign, then the whole idea of his coming to *destroy Antichrist* is lost!

2 Thes 2.3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction... 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.
 
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Douggg

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Here we have the end of the Tribulation, and the sounding of the last of the 7 trumps. Though not explicitly mentioned here, I think the language does highly imply Christ's second coming is at this time. The second coming is directly tied to the time for wrath:
Except for it is not in that text of Revelation 11 - but in Revelation 19 - a time, times, half times later.

The seven vials of God's wrath - which is different from the wrath of the Lamb to take vengeance on behalf of the Great Tribulation martyrs - are during the Great Tribulation.

The rapture/resurrection is in 1Thesslaonians4:15-18, 1Corinthians15:51-53, but your timing is off.

The rapture/resurrection will take place before the Great Tribulation begins which contains not only God's wrath but Satan's wrath, knowing that he will have but a short time left - the time/times/half time.

1Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Your post Great Tribulation view is hardly one of comfort - as well as being wrong.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Dear Christian believers, please study the Living Oracles for the types and shadows of the rapture, then you will be made wise on this subject.
The priests garments made "for beauty and for glory" to minister in the temple were put on to go in. They are an oracle of the New Man body all the righteous receive at the change, at the rapture, so they can "go in".
The High Priest's garments are an oracle of the New Man, God the Word, come in flesh to ransom back the kingdom Adam lost, and the brothers (includes the male and female Adam souls) lost in Adam for the purpose they were created for.
Study the oracle of the two silver trumpets made to call the priests to come stand before the temple door to receive instructions from YHVH when the two are blown together, one time; BUT both are blown TWICE, TOGETHER and that last, second trump of the two calls all the entire congregation of Israel to come together and stand before the temple doors to receive instructions from YHVH.

Lots more in Scripture, in the oracles.
Psalm 50 is most enlightening about that call, and Isaiah 26: 19-21.
 
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Juan777

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The 7th trump of Revelation is the same last trump Paul speaks of because that's when the dead in Christ are raised along with his second coming.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Here we have the second coming associated with a trumpet, and the dead in Christ rising, and the rapture.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


And here we have a trumpet called the last trump, and the dead in Christ being raised. This clearly is at the second coming as the other verse makes clear. The dead in Christ rise and Christ returns. So all we have to do is find out which end times trumpet Christ returns in:

Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Here we have the end of the Tribulation, and the sounding of the last of the 7 trumps. Though not explicitly mentioned here, I think the language does highly imply Christ's second coming is at this time. The second coming is directly tied to the time for wrath:

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


We see this wrath in greater detail here:


Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

So, the "last trump" is the same as the last of the 7 trumpets of Revelation and it is when Christ returns, the dead in Christ rise and the rapture all take place.





Of course there is no trumpet there. It sounds before any Revelation 19 events happen.



The vials are not poured before the 7th trumpet. The verse says the mystery of God is finished in t3h days leading up to the 7th trump, not anything about the vials of wrath.

Also, the Great Tribulation is never said to have a middle, with a first and last part like this. It is 42 months, nothing happens in the middle that is special or written about. It is not known or called a tribulation prior to the 42 months (the tribulation is not 7 years long). God's wrath comes after the Great Tribulation is over, not any moment before that, Revelation 11.

Daniel 9:27 indicates it is 7 years long but everyone wants to ignore that verse and come with their own timelines.
 
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ewq1938

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Daniel 9:27 indicates it is 7 years long but everyone wants to ignore that verse and come with their own timelines.


Actually people ignore this:


Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
 
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Juan777

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Actually people ignore this:


Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

That's in Daniel 9:27 too. If it was longer than 7 years then no flesh would be saved, imagine if it was 8 years! Rev 12:14 says the Great Tribulation is 3.5 years (time (1 year) and times (2 years) and half a time (6 months), and Rev 13:5 also references the 3.5 years (ie 42 months). It all fits like a glove.
 
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Juan777

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Here is an article explaining why the term "Last Trump" could have been used in 1 Cor 15. Keep in mind there will be Trumpets blown through the Millennium Kingdom as indicated by the Feast of Tabernacles which involves Trumpets and is detailed in Zechariah 14.

When does "the last trump" sound? The Rapture, the Second Coming, or some other time? - JA Show Articles

The point is neither the Rapture of the Second Coming is the "last trumpet sound" ever or implying that Paul was going into the same level of detail as John was in the book of Revelation (ie John had a vision in Patmos and has a unique revelation compared to Paul) as their ministries had different scopes. As Revelation was compiled after Corinthians, there is no way Paul could have read the book of Revelation and make a conclusion that the last trump is also the 7th trump like you are making here!

People have been twisting the "Last Trump" to fit their narrative. For example, Donald Trump's last name was also said to be the "Last Trump" for America before the nation falls apart, and end-times prophecies start getting fulfilled in some circles. It's amazing how people can stretch an idea when it may not be what is originally intended.
 
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That's in Daniel 9:27 too. If it was longer than 7 years then no flesh would be saved, imagine if it was 8 years!


It isn't in Daniel. Daniel has a full 7 years. Christ said no flesh would survive so it would be shortened. In Revelation he showed John it was now only 42 months, half of the original.
 
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Is the last trumpet of 1 Thessalonians 4 the same as the seventh trumpet of Revelation? | GotQuestions.org

This is from gotquestions. The Last Trump in 1 Cor 15 is referring to the end of the church age. The church age is already at an end by the time the Tribulation starts and the prophecy narrative becomes Jewish in nature from this time on. (ie focusing on the 2 witness, 144, 000 Jews, Jews fleeing Israel to go to Petra when the Anti-christ breaches a peace covenant 3.5 years into it, etc...).

This is the second reputable article that presents a great and clear argument that the Last Trump in 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 4 is not the same Trumpet as the 7th Trumpet.
 
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It isn't in Daniel. Daniel has a full 7 years. Christ said no flesh would survive so it would be shortened. In Revelation he showed John it was now only 42 months, half of the original.

The Great Tribulation is the last half of the week. The first half of the week is a peace covenant that is made which brings peace and stability to the Middle-East and follows the conflicts of the Gog and Magog war and Psalm 83. This is supposed to be the eye-of-the-hurricane. However, behind the scenes the Anti-Christ is rising to power, and plans to invade the Third re-built Temple and install himself as god to be worshipped there after a failed assassination attempt. We are seeing a Jewish perspective of prophecy. To the Gentile world at large, the anti-christ is a hero that solves the world's economic problems and is the most popular and loved guy alive at this point. He doesn't just show up like that and becomes a crazy dictator... he has to build his credibility to the world through signs and lying wonders and gradually the world trusts him, as does Israel, to bring peace and stability (safety?).

It says in Daniel 9:27 that at the middle of the week he (Anti-Christ) will cause sacrifice and oblation to cease in this re-built Temple, which at least shows there is an actual Temple that has to be re-built for that prophecy to take place.

We see there is a serious movement in Israel right now to re-built the Third Temple, and the Dome of the Rock may eventually have to be torn down if it has to be rebuilt there, or perhaps the anti-christ will broker a deal that allows Israel to rebuilt that Temple. Don't ask me how, but it says "a strong covenant" so something is going to happen there!
 
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RandyPNW

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All of the pre-Darby examples have a rapture before the second coming. This is Pre-trib, in various forms. Each is fairly unique and so is Darby's but they all share a connection. To say Pre-trib began with Darby is wrong. Sure, he had his own version but Pre-trib in various forms existed long before Darby.

I suppose it depends on what you mean? Darby's own version of Pretrib obviously didn't exist before Darby. But were earlier versions of Christ's Coming indicative of a separation between a coming in judgment and a coming in salvation? Sure.

But they weren't necessarily *Pre-Trib.* They sound more like *Pre-Wrath,* because the object wasn't to have Christ's Coming precede the "Tribulation Period," but rather, to render the Church free of the threat of judgment at Christ's Coming.

Darby's version views the entire "Tribulation Period" of 7 years as being God's judgment, apparently? And so, the Church, to "avoid God's Wrath," must exit even before the Tribulation Period starts!

Where do you find this in Church history before Darby? Even more, Darby viewed, I believe, that Christ could have come *at any time* in Church History. As far as I know, Christian eschatology has always connected Christ's Coming with endtime events which had to progressively develop over time, meaning that Christ could *not* come at "any time!"

The entire idea of an "imminent Coming" did occur in the Early Church in the time of Paul, who dispelled the idea simply by declaring that Christ's Coming had to, of necessity, be attached to the coming of Antichrist. Christ would only come when it is time to destroy Antichrist.

This is, I believe, the traditional and historic view with respect to Christian eschatology. But there was of course this sense that Christ isn't coming to judge the Church, but rather, to save the Church and judge the world.

And so, there are some separate facets to Christ's Coming given in history. But I think separating Christ's Coming into 2 stages separated by 7 years is rare if not non-existent, particularly when Christ's Coming is viewed as *before* the Reign of Antichrist.

Please prove me wrong?
 
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mndgn.j

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There are two events referred this is referenced about the Second Coming of Jesus. One of them I'm referring to is the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. The second one is at the Battle of Armageddon which ends the Great Tribulation and Starts the Millennium Kingdom.

I will categorize the verses you've mentioned and explain if they are referring to the Rapture or Second Coming:

1) 11 Thess 2 -- is referring to the Rapture. The issue is how I've read it, and how others have taught it, would make it sound like ..."and then"...does A (The Great Falling Away) and B (Anti-Christ revealed) happen simultaneously, or if A comes first, then B comes second, AFTER the Rapture, and there is a gap between A and B would be an issue.

The prevailing thought is that before the Rapture, there is a great falling away, and then after the Rapture, the Anti-Christ mystery-man is revealed to the world, likely heralded by a fleet of UFOs that appear to be under his control producing signs and lying wonders and claiming they were responsible for the mass abductions as a purge and they are tasked to lead humanity to their next stage of evolution, etc... can just speculate at this point.

Right now there are limited UFO sightings/disclosures with some abductions here and there, as well as the birth pangs of the Rapture (ie wars and rumours of wars, earthquakes in diverse places, etc...), but the floodgates of the paranormal and bizarre open up after the Rapture because the restraining power of the Holy Spirit, keeping these things at bay today, is removed. (11 Thess 2:6-7)

2) Matt 24:29, 30 is not the Rapture, but is the Second Coming.

The Rapture is supposed to be such a secret event that nobody knows it takes place. The only evidence is that millions of people are supposedly vanished out in thin air and it's not likely discovered until you see airplanes and cars crashing without drivers or the feeling that something is very wrong in the air, and you can't find your saved loved one, children, or un-born children, and see the ominous news on CNN that people are simply missing. But nobody who was left behind sees Jesus, whereas in Matt 24 - all the Earth sees Jesus.

Again, I've labelled 2 Thess as pointing to that. It's so secret that the chapter implies strongly that it's secret because why would you need to give assurance to people that they didn't miss a secret event if its so public and not secret in Matthew 24?

The issue of this whole thread is those who are left behind, after the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, who are pregnant, may find their pre-born babies are gone from their bellies. Either their bellies will pop open and make a mess or there will be some process where the mother is unharmed, but notices her belly getting flat with no explanation.

@RDKirk , With all the Rapture knowledge out there, and the Christian stand that abortion is a sin because life happens at conception, it's a wonder how there is an issue bridging that gap. In one hand we say abortion is killing a human being, but on the other, God would rescue children from the Tribulation because they are innocent, but not those still inside the womb? It would have to include those if you believe that life starts at conception! (I believe life happens at conception and I also believe the Rapture, which is why both makes me feel confused about the Rapture as I can't imagine pregnant unsaved woman with Raptured fetuses, in a similar manner of people being Raptured, it is never covered in movies depicting the subject, it's just too much etc...)



Bro, What you're saying rings true so hard for me. I have studied a decent amount about "aliens" and stuff of the paranormal. What I have noticed is most Christians today tend to separate paranormal from the things of God saying that we shouldn't talk about certain things. not realizing that the things of God ex: the holy spirit often times operates in a paranormal way (beyond the scope of normal scientific understanding). So its by the power of the holy spirit we can see what's coming and others do not, they write it off as nonsense. back when I still believed that aliens were beings from another planet I used to think the same way. Since then God has revealed to me that aliens are demons and they will be used in a mass deception sometime in the future.
 
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mndgn.j

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There are two events referred this is referenced about the Second Coming of Jesus. One of them I'm referring to is the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. The second one is at the Battle of Armageddon which ends the Great Tribulation and Starts the Millennium Kingdom.

I will categorize the verses you've mentioned and explain if they are referring to the Rapture or Second Coming:

1) 11 Thess 2 -- is referring to the Rapture. The issue is how I've read it, and how others have taught it, would make it sound like ..."and then"...does A (The Great Falling Away) and B (Anti-Christ revealed) happen simultaneously, or if A comes first, then B comes second, AFTER the Rapture, and there is a gap between A and B would be an issue.

The prevailing thought is that before the Rapture, there is a great falling away, and then after the Rapture, the Anti-Christ mystery-man is revealed to the world, likely heralded by a fleet of UFOs that appear to be under his control producing signs and lying wonders and claiming they were responsible for the mass abductions as a purge and they are tasked to lead humanity to their next stage of evolution, etc... can just speculate at this point.

Right now there are limited UFO sightings/disclosures with some abductions here and there, as well as the birth pangs of the Rapture (ie wars and rumours of wars, earthquakes in diverse places, etc...), but the floodgates of the paranormal and bizarre open up after the Rapture because the restraining power of the Holy Spirit, keeping these things at bay today, is removed. (11 Thess 2:6-7)

2) Matt 24:29, 30 is not the Rapture, but is the Second Coming.

The Rapture is supposed to be such a secret event that nobody knows it takes place. The only evidence is that millions of people are supposedly vanished out in thin air and it's not likely discovered until you see airplanes and cars crashing without drivers or the feeling that something is very wrong in the air, and you can't find your saved loved one, children, or un-born children, and see the ominous news on CNN that people are simply missing. But nobody who was left behind sees Jesus, whereas in Matt 24 - all the Earth sees Jesus.

Again, I've labelled 2 Thess as pointing to that. It's so secret that the chapter implies strongly that it's secret because why would you need to give assurance to people that they didn't miss a secret event if its so public and not secret in Matthew 24?

The issue of this whole thread is those who are left behind, after the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, who are pregnant, may find their pre-born babies are gone from their bellies. Either their bellies will pop open and make a mess or there will be some process where the mother is unharmed, but notices her belly getting flat with no explanation.

@RDKirk , With all the Rapture knowledge out there, and the Christian stand that abortion is a sin because life happens at conception, it's a wonder how there is an issue bridging that gap. In one hand we say abortion is killing a human being, but on the other, God would rescue children from the Tribulation because they are innocent, but not those still inside the womb? It would have to include those if you believe that life starts at conception! (I believe life happens at conception and I also believe the Rapture, which is why both makes me feel confused about the Rapture as I can't imagine pregnant unsaved woman with Raptured fetuses, in a similar manner of people being Raptured, it is never covered in movies depicting the subject, it's just too much etc...)

well If a baby is raptured from the mothers womb It would be counted in the alien deception. the womans stomach would just return to a state of being not pregnant in the blink of an eye just as the 2.3 billion or so christians disappear. its not that wild of a thought xD God can do anything.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
days cut off shorter than they were by 1/3 parts of the night shining and 1/3 parts of the day shining, as Revelation states.
Enoch the prophet, the 7th from Adam wrote that a day and night have 18 total parts (not hours), and so not shining for 1/3 of each makes a day =12 parts, truly cut short/OFF.
 
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