EV's...

Shemjaza · Aug 7, 2022

eleos1954 said:
well the priorities are causing a whole bunch of suffering ... that is except for governments and market leaders.

I agree absolutely, but that is an independent issue to methods of powering motor vehicles and energy grids.

childeye 2 · Aug 7, 2022

There are political forces at play. The entrenched insist on not losing a cash cow, but the fact is we need to create a sustainable lifestyle and, despite the protesting, it's feasible. My daughter has solar panels that create enough energy to power her house and perhaps if she had an electric vehicle she could recharge it for free.

Aussie Pete · Aug 7, 2022

eleos1954 said:
hmmm .... what's more important ... food and shelter for your family .... or an EV?

that is about where most are at in their lives ... they can't afford both .... some are struggling with food and shelter ... much less anything else

The order backlog for EV's demonstrates that there is huge demand. Sure, many people are struggling. Many are not. No one has to buy an EV. And the costs are coming down to near parity with with equivalent ICE vehicles.

Aussie Pete · Aug 7, 2022

eleos1954 said:
well the priorities are causing a whole bunch of suffering ... that is except for governments and market leaders.

Shemjaza said:
Uranium power stations are immensely expensive to set up and unfortunately one of the rarest materials on the planet.

Plus when they go wrong, they go reeeealy wrong.

Uranium is not that rare. Australia has plenty. Nuclear power is relatively clean once the power station has been built. Modern nuclear power is much safer than older designs. Even the catastrophic event in Japan, Fukushima, did not cause many casualties. Certainly far more died as a result of the tsunami that caused the meltdown.

I was involved in industrial sales for many years. There were many incidents in many facilities. It was usually human error, at least in the Western world. Compared to the disasters at oil refineries and drilling platforms, nuclear power is safe.

Aussie Pete · Aug 7, 2022

David's Harp said:
View attachment 319466

Hi Carl, I like that meme. I think it represents what's called "greenwashing". The carbon cost in the production and subsequent running of some EV's is high, but it is believed this will lessen over time. There's also the possibility of EV's being able to feed back into the grid.

I think they are a better alternative to fossil fuel vehicles, but only where you don't need to travel great distances.
I can't help but think there may be alternative fuels that are better - such as hydrogen - but that these are not economically viable. In other words they wouldn't be able to make enough profit from them.

Anyway, just for fun, I'll put in this meme that I quite like:

Hydrogen is miserable to work with. It is incredibly easy to ignite by a tiny spark, it has a wide range of dangerous air/fuel mix ratio, it will leak through the crystalline structure of plain steel pipework and is hard to store and transport.

There is a lot of research into how to produce and store hydrogen economically. Right now, about the only practical use is for heavy transport vehicles. Personally, I would avoid hydrogen refueling stations like the plague. I've had to work in an H2 plant just briefly. No thanks.

prodromos · Aug 8, 2022

Aussie Pete said:
Hydrogen is miserable to work with. It is incredibly easy to ignite by a tiny spark, it has a wide range of dangerous air/fuel mix ratio, it will leak through the crystalline structure of plain steel pipework and is hard to store and transport.

There is a lot of research into how to produce and store hydrogen economically. Right now, about the only practical use is for heavy transport vehicles. Personally, I would avoid hydrogen refueling stations like the plague. I've had to work in an H2 plant just briefly. No thanks.

One of my lecturers worked at BOC and was responsble for extinguishing a hydrogen fire at the chemical plant which they had not been aware of until someone walked into the invisible flame and suffered serious burns

Shemjaza · Aug 8, 2022

Aussie Pete said:
Uranium is not that rare. Australia has plenty. Nuclear power is relatively clean once the power station has been built. Modern nuclear power is much safer than older designs. Even the catastrophic event in Japan, Fukushima, did not cause many casualties. Certainly far more died as a result of the tsunami that caused the meltdown.

I was involved in industrial sales for many years. There were many incidents in many facilities. It was usually human error, at least in the Western world. Compared to the disasters at oil refineries and drilling platforms, nuclear power is safe.

Uranium isn't that rare with the amounts we use currently, but if we scaled up to replace coal locally (let alone globally) it could be problem.

However I in general agree that we should seriously consider nuclear power... but I'm greatly concerned that it could be put in place with safety and waste storage insufficiently accounted for. We already have a problem with some of our industries getting out of taking responsibility for the consequences of their actions.

eleos1954 · Aug 8, 2022

Shemjaza said:
I agree absolutely, but that is an independent issue to methods of powering motor vehicles and energy grids.

how many of the government officials and higher end business people are driving nothing but EV's? Seems they want to dictate how the general population is to live ... but then on the other hand don't do it themselves.

Really seems the best option would be to go to nuclear, but no they don't want to do that either. Even then ... there would be some things that would require fossil fuel to be powered.

eleos1954 · Aug 8, 2022

Aussie Pete said:
The order backlog for EV's demonstrates that there is huge demand. Sure, many people are struggling. Many are not. No one has to buy an EV. And the costs are coming down to near parity with with equivalent ICE vehicles.

Nearly one-third of American households, 29%, live in “lower class” households, the Pew Research Center finds in a 2018 report.

so ... too bad for these folks eh?

Other thing ... I live in a cold environment and somewhat remote .... if one gets caught in a snow storm .... how long do batteries last? If they get depleted then is there a "mobile" recharge unit that comes out? How does that work?

Ev's just don't work for everybody .... whether financial or for other reasons.

No one has to buy an EV.

Amen to that one.

prodromos · Aug 8, 2022

eleos1954 said:
Other thing ... I live in a cold environment and somewhat remote .... if one gets caught in a snow storm .... how long do batteries last? If they get depleted then is there a "mobile" recharge unit that comes out? How does that work?

Yes, EV's are completely useless in extremes, whether it is extreme heat or or extreme cold. They are fine for California all year round but could not survive an Alaskan Winter or Summer in Death Valley.

prodromos · Aug 10, 2022

Shemjaza said:
Uranium isn't that rare with the amounts we use currently, but if we scaled up to replace coal locally (let alone globally) it could be problem.

You have posted this out of ignorance.
1kg of coal produces 8 kWh of heat
1kg of mineral oil produces 12 kWh of heat
1kg of Uranium-235 produces 24,000,000 kWh of heat.
Taking into account the processing and enrichment of Uranium to produce fuel pellets, 1kg of Uranium-235 produces the same energy as 14,000 kg of coal. Its a no brainer.

Shemjaza · Aug 10, 2022

prodromos said:
You have posted this out of ignorance.
1kg of coal produces 8 kWh of heat
1kg of mineral oil produces 12 kWh of heat
1kg of Uranium-235 produces 24,000,000 kWh of heat.
Taking into account the processing and enrichment of Uranium to produce fuel pellets, 1kg of Uranium-235 produces the same energy as 14,000 kg of coal. Its a no brainer.

I admit that I don't know the details...

But what is the comparison of tons of yellow cake versus tons on brown coal?

I feel like the comparison of a purified sample of unstable radioactive Uranium versus the limited processing of coal to be ready for burning is significant.

prodromos · Aug 10, 2022

Shemjaza said:
I admit that I don't know the details...

But what is the comparison of tons of yellow cake versus tons on brown coal?

I feel like the comparison of a purified sample of unstable radioactive Uranium versus the limited processing of coal to be ready for burning is significant.

I included that in the above comparison. If it was simply comparing U235 and coal then 1kg of U235 is equivalent to 3,000,000 kg of coal

Shemjaza · Aug 10, 2022

prodromos said:
I included that in the above comparison. If it was simply comparing U235 and coal then 1kg of U235 is equivalent to 3,000,000 kg of coal

So you did. My mistake.

How common is it by quantity as a resource?

The uranium mines in northern Australia don't appear to be anything like the scale of our coal mines.

prodromos · Aug 10, 2022

Shemjaza said:
The uranium mines in northern Australia don't appear to be anything like the scale of our coal mines.

Nor would they need to be, given the ratio of energy density. Coal is also very necessary for steel production which are are not running out of demand for any time soon. In Australia we are seeing more and more steel frame house construction over timber frame, which is a huge pain for my electrical trade.

Shemjaza · Aug 10, 2022

prodromos said:
Nor would they need to be, given the ratio of energy density. Coal is also very necessary for steel production which are are not running out of demand for any time soon. In Australia we are seeing more and more steel frame house construction over timber frame, which is a huge pain for my electrical trade.

Unfortunately the brown coal we use for power is less useful for steel.

levnishbar · Sep 7, 2022

The battery packs of EVs are vulnerable to explode or catch fire, sometimes spontaneously.

In an accident, if the battery pack gets pierced or crushed, better start running.

Fires from lithium batteries are also notorious for re-starting after being put out, and the fumes are toxic (HCl and HF fumes).

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