Why do catholics pray to Mary

Landon Caeli said:

Well, it sounds like you don't actually *hate* Catholicism, or even Catholics. That's all I can ask for.

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No I don't. My wife's family are Catholic, although many of them don't regularly attend Mass. I would never discuss these issues with them. My wife's cousin is a Catholic priest. I have met him once. My wife's late aunt was very devout, and she loved singing the Angelica and had a beautiful voice. Another of my wife's late cousins was a member of a strict Catholic movement (Agnus Dei or something similar). None of them ever tried to convert me to Catholicism.

There have been times when I have asked my wife to explain something from a Catholic point of view so I can understand, for instance, conversion to Christ, and she explained the whole process in Catholic terminology. As part of my M.Div I did a paper in Catholic Theology which I found very interesting and informative.

Watchman1 said:

You still not have addressed the problem that if Mary really was the Queen of Heaven, Jesus and Paul would have clearly included her as such in their teaching concerning who to venerate, worship, and pray to. But they never did, which, if she was Queen of Heaven, their exclusion of her would have been a clear insult to her.

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I like to take such accusations one or two at a time. First, it is Catholic teaching that the worship given to God is for God alone. We venerate and honor saints. It is Catholic teaching that we are to pray for one another, and that those in Heaven are alive, not dead. As to Mary holding the title of queen, in the Davidic kingdom, starting with Solomon, the mother of the king, not the wife, but the mother of the king was the queen mother. As per the Bible, the queen petitioned the king on behalf of others. Apparently you think that Mary is somehow not deserving of the title of queen given to all of those other queen mothers. Don't you believe that is more insulting than Paul not using the title in the texts he left us? ALL of the Bible is beneficial, not just what Paul decided to write. We see the Mother of our Lord in Revelation, wearing a crown. What women wear crowns?

Valletta said:

I like to take such accusations one or two at a time. First, it is Catholic teaching that the worship given to God is for God alone. We venerate and honor saints. It is Catholic teaching that we are to pray for one another, and that those in Heaven are alive, not dead. As to Mary holding the title of queen, in the Davidic kingdom, staring with Solomon, the mother of the king, not the wife, but the mother of the king was the queen mother. As per the Bible, the queen petitioned the king on behalf of others. Apparently you think that Mary is somehow not deserving of the title of queen given to all of those other queen mothers. Don't you believe that is more insulting than Paul not using the title in the texts he left us? ALL of the Bible is beneficial, not just what Paul decided to write. We see the Mother of our Lord in Revelation, wearing a crown. What women wear crowns?

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I don't see any reference in Revelation about Mary wearing a crown.

Watchman1 said:

I don't see any reference in Revelation about Mary wearing a crown.

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How about answering some of my questions? Let me rephrase, don't you think that Mary deserves the title of queen given to all of those other queen mothers in the Davidic kingdom? Why do you think she is less worthy than they?

As to you missing the reference in Revelation, the woman wearing the crown is Mary.

prodromos said:

It always amazes me how the Holy Spirit supposedly teaches so many people mutually exclusive things. One person says the Holy Spirit led them out of one Church while another says they were led into the same. How can a person be sure that it is indeed the Holy Spirit since it obviously can't be, as the Holy Spirit does not contradict. We as Christians are supposed to be of one mind yet clearly we aren't. How do people discern which spirit is leading them? How do they test? Just claiming you were led by the Holy Spirit unfortunately means nothing to me as statistically all are not led by the same spirit.

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That is why I said I read and was given understanding of scripture. And maybe you don't understand God's will and how He can led people by His Spirit to do perform different tasks, so a person can be lead to serve, to lead, to teach, to pray, to encourage, to disciple...
Just because you don't understand how He leads doesn't mean people are wrong when they say they were led as long as where ever being led God is glorified.

I have been led to a job so I could help someone other times I have been led to a job so someone could help me.

Watchman1 said:

Mary's blessing does not make her the Queen of Heaven whom people can pray to, or for her to be a mediator between people and God.

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Does not answer the question. The question was..."What do you believe was the basis of Mary's blessing in the passages of Luke 1: 45 and Luke 1: 46-48?

It is merely that she is honoured as the mother of Jesus, but as soon as Jesus grew up to be an adult, He went his own way, and his mother had no further influence on Him.

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Ok, so as a sola scripturist, you should have no problem showing us where in the bible it say's this? Book, chapter and verse/verses please.

In fact, she became a believer and received Jesus as her Lord and Saviour after His resurrection, along with His brothers.

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Once again, as a sola scripturist, you should have no problem showing us where in the bible it say's this? Book, chapter and verse/verses please.

Have a Blessed Day!

Watchman1 said:

My wife was brought up and educated Catholic, and so I wouldn't dream of having this debate with her. I would be sleeping with the cat in the laundry if I did!

I recently attended a full Requiem Mass for the mother in law of my daughter's best friend. I found it very interesting seeing that it was the first full Requiem Mass I had been to. My wife was very critical of the priest who wouldn't allow non-Catholics to participate in the Eucharist. She felt that he should have shown more tolerance seeing that around half of the attendees were non-Catholics.

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Interesting, if your wife was truly "brought up and educated" in the Catholic faith, she should not have been so critical of the Priest's reasoning why non- Catholics are asked not to come forward to receive the Blessed Sacrament. Sounds to me she may have been poorly catechized.

She felt that the priest was implying that non-Catholics were not even Christians.

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Sorry to say this, but for your wife to imply or think this, confirms she 'was' poorly catechized in the Catholic faith. I should also add that unfortunately, this is quite common thinking within this Christian Forum among the many who claim to be former Catholics. That being...... poorly catechized in the Catholic faith.

Having said that, I would not have gone to the priest afterward and debated with him. That would have been very disrespectful of me. So, I kept my mouth shut and enjoyed the wonderful spread of food afterward.

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Wait a minute, did you or did you not debate with the priest afterwards?

Have a Blessed Day!

Watchman1 said:

The issue is our respective definitions of "blessed" in relation to what Elizabeth's prophetic word to Mary stated. Did it mean that Mary was a divine, sinless person who is to be worshiped and prayed to as the Mother of God, Queen of Heaven, or was she to be honoured as the woman who was to be the vessel to give birth to the Saviour of the world?

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When you make statements like the above, it really makes me wonder about the quality of the research you did for the below.

Watchman1 said:

As part of my M.Div I did a paper in Catholic Theology which I found very interesting and informative

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Landon Caeli said:

If the Church proclaims something as a Revealed Truth, then it is as equally true as the Scriptures. The Holy Scriptures are equally authoritative as the Holy Church, for Catholics.

I don't expect others to accept this, but they should understand it.

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Actually, I do understand it. The Catholic Church claims extrabiblical revelation and fortified it in 1871 when it was determined that the Pope can, and does, speak infallibly under certain conditions. The doctrine of papal infallibility was yet one more barrier established to maintain the division of the body of Christ.

Landon Caeli said:

If the Church proclaims something as a Revealed Truth, then it is as equally true as the Scriptures. The Holy Scriptures are equally authoritative as the Holy Church, for Catholics.

I don't expect others to accept this, but they should understand it.

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it's actually quite funny.

All Christians accept the Church's authority when it says The Gospel of Matthew is Inspired text. They accept this fact with no proof. Jesus didn't tell us to listen to what Matthew would write.

Yet many of these same Christians scream foul when the same Church say Mary was Immaculately conceived.

That is why I have the quote of Benedict the XV in my signature. You either accept it all or it ain't gonna end too good.

Valletta said:

How about answering some of my questions? Let me rephrase, don't you think that Mary deserves the title of queen given to all of those other queen mothers in the Davidic kingdom? Why do you think she is less worthy than they?

As to you missing the reference in Revelation, the woman wearing the crown is Mary.

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Quote me the verse which says that.

Fidelibus said:

Does not answer the question. The question was..."What do you believe was the basis of Mary's blessing in the passages of Luke 1: 45 and Luke 1: 46-48?



Ok, so as a sola scripturist, you should have no problem showing us where in the bible it say's this? Book, chapter and verse/verses please.



Once again, as a sola scripturist, you should have no problem showing us where in the bible it say's this? Book, chapter and verse/verses please.

Have a Blessed Day!

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I think I would be wasting my time doing that, seeing that the Marian doctrine that has come from Church tradition and the Pope declaring it ex cathedra overrules the Scripture, and no Catholic believer that I know of would say that the Pope who stated the revealed truth of Marian doctrine would be wrong. So, even if I did quote chapter and verse, you would have a different interpretation of it according to Catholic theology. So, I will leave it to the "jury" of the silent readers of the forum to form their own judgment of whether Marian doctrine is correct or not.

Fidelibus said:

Interesting, if your wife was truly "brought up and educated" in the Catholic faith, she should not have been so critical of the Priest's reasoning why non- Catholics are asked not to come forward to receive the Blessed Sacrament. Sounds to me she may have been poorly catechized.



Sorry to say this, but for your wife to imply or think this, confirms she 'was' poorly catechized in the Catholic faith. I should also add that unfortunately, this is quite common thinking within this Christian Forum among the many who claim to be former Catholics. That being...... poorly catechized in the Catholic faith.



Wait a minute, did you or did you not debate with the priest afterwards?

Have a Blessed Day!

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It is not my practice to go into another priest's or minister's church and debate theology with him, in the same way that I would not go into the Catholic forum on CF and debate these things.

Also, just because you disagree with what I am saying doesn't mean that I am necessarily wrong, or that you are correct.

prodromos said:

When you make statements like the above, it really makes me wonder about the quality of the research you did for the below.

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I have learned that the Roman Catholic church is quite a diverse organisation. Different orders have different aspects of theology. Some have a total devotion to Mary in that they worship her and pray to her statue. Others ignore Mary altogether. Some accept that people outside of the Church are genuine Christians, while others are adamant that only those in the Church are true Christians.

Anyhow, as I am saying on this thread. I will leave it to the silent "jury" of the majority of members reading the thread to make up their own minds who is correct and who is not.

Watchman1 said:

I have learned that the Roman Catholic church is quite a diverse organisation. Different orders have different aspects of theology. Some have a total devotion to Mary in that they worship her and pray to her statue. Others ignore Mary altogether. Some accept that people outside of the Church are genuine Christians, while others are adamant that only those in the Church are true Christians.

Anyhow, as I am saying on this thread. I will leave it to the silent "jury" of the majority of members reading the thread to make up their own minds who is correct and who is not.

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If you choose not to answer my questions that if fine, but please quit spreading false information about Catholics or the Catholic Church. As I had just posted, the worship Catholics give to God is for God alone. I don't go around even suggesting you give that worship to anyone but God. Catholics do not pray "to" a statue of Mary. Catholics believe that there is a "communion of saints," and, as per the Bible, we are encouraged to pray for one another. It is of spiritual benefit to have reminders of our spiritual life, a crucifix on the wall, a Nativity scene, a statue of a saint and to pray. There might even be kneelers next to a statue, it is a great time to pray and ask for the prayers of that particular saint. Your teachers may have taught you differently and that the saints in Heaven cannot hear you, that doesn't mean you should suggest idolatry by others because of a practice that your religion has dropped. People have different roles in life, one might be a fisherman, another a tax collector, and God gives people and religious orders or groups different gifts and different charisms. Some might focus on helping the poor, others on preaching the Gospel. God in His beautiful wisdom gave us these different gifts, and I assure you His purpose was not so people could suggest division.

Valletta said:

If you choose not to answer my questions that if fine, but please quit spreading false information about Catholics or the Catholic Church. As I had just posted, the worship Catholics give to God is for God alone. I don't go around even suggesting you give that worship to anyone but God alone. Catholics do not pray "to" a statue of Mary. Catholics believe that there is a "communion of saints," and, as per the Bible, we are encouraged to pray for one another. It is of spiritual benefit to have reminders of our spiritual life, a crucifix on the wall, a Nativity scene, a statue of a saint and to pray. There might even be kneelers next to a statue, it is a great time to pray and ask for the prayers of that particular saint. Your teachers may have taught you differently and that the saints in Heaven cannot hear you, that doesn't mean you should suggest idolatry by others because of a practice that your religion has dropped. People have different roles in life, one might be a fisherman, another a tax collector, and God gives people and religious orders or groups different gifts and different charisms. Some might focus on helping the poor, others on preaching the Gospel. God in His beautiful wisdom gave us these different gifts, and I assure you His purpose was not so people could suggest division.

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Because this is a general theology forum and not a protected one, I can freely write what I believe about any religion I choose while keeping within the general rules of the forum. You have the right to disagree with me, but not to issue instructions to me what I should or should not write. To be frank, I don't believe that Marian doctrine is consistent with what I read in Holy Scripture, and my position is that if it ain't in the Bible then it ain't true. For something to be consistent with Scripture then it has to be clearly stated by Jesus and the Apostles, and not on the basis of a word definition, or a woman wearing a crown in an apocalyptic book of the Bible. If the woman wearing a crown is Mary Queen of Heaven, then the woman would have been clearly named a such, which she isn't. Therefore there is absolutely no proof in Scripture that the woman wearing a crown is actually Mary.

There is a whole book of prayers to Mary that has been sanctioned by the Catholic church, and many of those prayers are prayers of worship and linking Mary with salvation with requests to her to advocate to Jesus in order to get the person saved. This means that there are many Catholics who have no doubt that Mary is the Queen of Heaven, someone to be worshiped, and the mediator between man and Christ for salvation. Therefore my views are direct from what Catholics say about Mary.

You may not accept that, but many Catholics do. My answer to the OP about why Catholics pray to Mary, is that at some time during the Church's history, Marian doctrine was set up through "revealed truth" that teaches that Mary is the person to be prayed to and that Jesus will do what she says. One of the big reasons why Catholics pray to Mary is that she is so linked to their salvation, they would have no assurance of salvation unless they do pray to her that she will advocate for them.

So you can discredit and accuse me of falsehood if you please, but I just don't care. You might need to go and read Catholic literature and prayers to Mary to confirm that what I am saying is true.

Here is a link to 7 powerful prayers to Mary which proves everything I have said.
7 Powerful Prayers for Mary's Intercession - Catholic Gallery

.

Watchman1 said:

My answer to the OP about why Catholics pray to Mary, is that at some time during the Church's history, Marian doctrine was set up through "revealed truth" that teaches that Mary is the person to be prayed to and that Jesus will do what she says. One of the big reasons why Catholics pray to Mary is that she is so linked to their salvation, they would have no assurance of salvation unless they do pray to her that she will advocate for them.

So you can discredit and accuse me of falsehood if you please, but I just don't care. You might need to go and read Catholic literature and prayers to Mary to confirm that what I am saying is true.

Here is a link to 7 powerful prayers to Mary which proves everything I have said.
7 Powerful Prayers for Mary's Intercession - Catholic Gallery

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False. That Catholics ask saints to pray for us is something I posted about us, it is quite well known that there are a variety of prayers. The fact that such prayers exist hardly proves your numerous accusations. Let's look at your link: The Magnificat, one of the prayers you list, is the canticle from Luke 1:46-55. Catholics have other prayers from the Bible, all practicing Catholics regularly pray portions of the Psalms at mass. Recall that we address angels in some Psalms. There is nothing wrong with praying the Bible! The Bible is the book of the Catholic Church, the Church chose the 73 books of the Bible in the late 300s and considers the Bible the Word of God. We believe ALL of the Bible is profitable, and thus it should not surprise anyone that portions of the Bible are in many Catholic prayers. Mary is part of salvation history. Your new allegation that Catholics "would have no assurance of salvation unless they do pray to her" is also false. It is the Once saved, always saved religions that preach assurance of salvation. We are told in the Bible to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. That means while, as the Bible says, we are saved through Baptism, many of us fall and God continues to save us. So there is no assurance or guarantee in salvation. I heartily recommend all to pray the Bible.

Watchman1 said:

I think I would be wasting my time doing that, seeing that the Marian doctrine that has come from Church tradition and the Pope declaring it ex cathedra overrules the Scripture, and no Catholic believer that I know of would say that the Pope who stated the revealed truth of Marian doctrine would be wrong.

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I beg to differ it being a waste of your time. I think it would be a great opportunity for you to explain to those of us that are not Pentecostal, what Pentecostals believe was the basis of Mary's blessing in the passages of Luke 1: 45 and Luke 1: 46-48?

So, even if I did quote chapter and verse, you would have a different interpretation of it according to Catholic theology.

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So what if I did, surly as a Sola Scripturists, you are not disconcerted discussing Scripture with a Catholic are you?

Besides, you seem to not be having a problem asking a Catholic (Valletta) to quote Scripture on post #211 to prove his point.

Quote me the verse which says that.

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Surly you do not wish to come off looking hypocritical, do you?

So, I will leave it to the "jury" of the silent readers of the forum to form their own judgment of whether Marian doctrine is correct or not.

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Well, let's go back and take a look-see at your post # 195 where you said in the second and third sentences:

I subscribe to Sola Scriptura. This means that I believe that if it ain't in the Bible, then it ain't true.

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So, if this is what you believe, it would seem that you would not have any problem showing us the book, chapter, and verse in the bible to back up what you said and 'believe' in post #192:

It is merely that she is honoured as the mother of Jesus, but as soon as Jesus grew up to be an adult, He went his own way, and his mother had no further influence on Him.

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And

In fact, she became a believer and received Jesus as her Lord and Saviour after His resurrection, along with His brothers.

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Soooo.... if you cannot provide from the bible alone (book, chapter or verse) where it say's this, the "jury of silent readers" as well as myself can only come to a verdict, from your very own belief system, that what you said "ain't true" because it "it ain't in the bible."

Have a Blessed Day!

Watchman1 said:

I have learned that the Roman Catholic church is quite a diverse organisation. Different orders have different aspects of theology. Some have a total devotion to Mary in that they worship her and pray to her statue. Others ignore Mary altogether. Some accept that people outside of the Church are genuine Christians, while others are adamant that only those in the Church are true Christians.

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Could you please enlighten us where you learned this? Maybe from your poorly catechized wife's understanding on Catholicism?

Have a Blessed Day!