Indulgences

indulgences have never been a practice of the Church. plus, Pope JPII brought them back to my knowledge.

just the fact that they have such an inconsistent history is a pretty bad sign.

dóxatotheó said:

Matt calm down they will start declaring us anathema!!!!

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nah, we’re good. we were anathema for a while and we survived.

An indulgence (inside the Roman Catholic church and according to its teaching) is the forgiveness or the reduction of the temporal punishment that a sinner must undergo for the satisfaction of God's righteousness, after his guilt and the eternal punishment for sins are absolved, through his assimilation, by means of the Roman bishop, of the Saviour's surplus merits and the supererogatory good works of the Theotokos and the saints, outside of the sacrament of repentance. These indulgences are given to living men, who are released by them from the obligation to offer satisfactions and to fulfill penances for certain sins, and to the dead, for whom the period of torment in purgatory is shortened. These indulgences, in accordance with God's great mercy and in accordance with the pope's condescension, can be given out gratis for some pious deed - a journey to holy places (to Rome, for example), for beneficial social undertakings, for some service and donation in the pope's behalf. Indulgences are plenary, which extend to one's whole life and to all one's sins, and partial - to several days or years. Additionally, there are great indulgences, which are given at a certain time to the whole Catholic world, or to a whole country, or to all Christians who are in Rome on some special occasions: for example, during the solemn celebration of jubilees in the Roman Church or during the election of a new pope. These indulgences are given personally by the pope himself, or through the cardinal penitentiary or through bishops and other members of the ecclesiastical hierarchy. In Catholic countries there are special, privileged churches, chapels, altars, icons and statues before which everyone who desires may pray and receive an indulgence for several days. The grace of indulgences may be acquired in certain types of medals, rosaries and crosses hallowed in Rome.

The profitableness of indulgences led to their greater and greater growth and to the search for new occasions for granting them. Not without the influence of financial motives was the theory of indulgences itself worked out as well - frankly, their advocates and sellers were guided by monetary interests. Already long ago, all this evoked a protest against indulgences themselves and against the papacy's trafficking in them. Attacks on indulgences were some of the first features of the reformation movement. It goes without saying that this mediæval teaching on indulgences was completely unknown in the ancient, undivided Church and is unacceptable to us, since it contradicts the whole spirit of Orthodoxy.
source: Purgatory and Indulgences | RUSSIAN ORTHODOX CATHEDRAL OF ST.JOHN THE BAPTIST (stjohndc.org)

Concerning indulgences, I'd recommend reading :Selling Salvation: The Origins of Indulgences

In short, RC indulgences is a development from two things--almsgiving and proto-indulgences. The former has always existed since Jewish times and was always understood to be expiatory in some sense (i.e. efficacious towards salvation). The latter came from bishops which when getting a letter of recommendation from a martyr or confessor, could "indulge" the request and lessen a penance. We have ecumenical canons on these.

The RC doctrine is in reality neither. The RCC sells absolution for individuals and the dead not based upon a real letter of recommendation ("hey mr. bishop, I am a confessor for the faith and I know X apostatized for really strange reasons and his penance should be lessened because i know he is otherwise very faithful"), but simply by virtue that they can. Interestingly, indulgences began as something any monastery or bishop can sell, but like any commodity, got consolidated in a Papal controlled monopoly! Interesting scholarship on this.

Point is, indulgences are one of the bizarre, terrible excesses of RC theology which really set them apart from historic Christianity.

abacabb3 said:

Point is, indulgences are one of the bizarre, terrible excesses of RC theology which really set them apart from historic Christianity.

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yep, and their own history isn’t consistent with them.

ArmyMatt said:

yep, and their own history isn’t consistent with them.

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I lament this, as honestly so much of our culture is tied up with RCism and Protestantism, but they are definitely disjointed from the historical faith.

abacabb3 said:

I lament this, as honestly so much of our culture is tied up with RCism and Protestantism, but they are definitely disjointed from the historical faith.

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yep, and for the same reason with different conclusions.

abacabb3 said:

The RCC sells absolution for individuals and the dead . . .
Point is, indulgences are one of the bizarre, terrible excesses of RC theology which really set them apart from historic Christianity.

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Indulgences have Biblical roots, indeed, reading Holy Scripture is one of the acts involved in indulgences. Acts of charity and prayers were others. Unfortunately almsgiving, a wonderful act, led to some abuses around the time of the Protestant reformation. Giving cash to "buy" an indulgence is an abuse of the indulgences. Unfortunately because of anti-Catholic sentiment these abuses were magnified in the public arena with some going as far as claiming Catholics were buying their way to Heaven. (In fact indulgences have nothing to do with our final judgment.) Because of so much false information giving cash as an act for an indulgence was dropped, while of course charitable giving is still encouraged. Sadly, even so many centuries later, much misinformation still exists.

.

Valletta said:

Indulgences have Biblical roots, indeed, reading Holy Scripture is one of the acts involved in indulgences. Acts of charity and prayers were others. Unfortunately almsgiving, a wonderful act, led to some abuses around the time of the Protestant reformation. Giving cash to "buy" an indulgence is an abuse of the indulgences. Unfortunately because of anti-Catholic sentiment these abuses were magnified in the public arena with some going as far as claiming Catholics were buying their way to Heaven. (In fact indulgences have nothing to do with our final judgment.) Because of so much false information giving cash as an act for an indulgence was dropped, while of course charitable giving is still encouraged. Sadly, even so many centuries later, much misinformation still exists.

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what do they have to do with?

ArmyMatt said:

what do they have to do with?

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Temporal punishment. Saint Augustine said:

For many sins seem in this world to be overlooked and visited with no punishment, whose punishment is reserved for the future (for it is not in vain that the day when Christ shall come as Judge of quick and dead is peculiarly named the day of judgment); just as, on the other hand, many sins are punished in this life, which nevertheless are pardoned, and shall bring down no punishment in the future life. Accordingly, in reference to certain temporal punishments, which in this life are visited upon sinners, the apostle, addressing those whose sins are blotted out, and not reserved for the final judgment, says: "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world."
. . .
We must beware, however, lest any one should suppose that gross sins, such as are committed by those who shall not inherit the kingdom of God, may be daily perpetrated,and daily stoned for by almsgiving, The life must be changed for the better; and almsgiving must be used to propitiate God for past sins, not to purchase impunity for the commission of such sins in the future. For He has given no man license to sin, although in His mercy He may blot out sins that are already committed, if we do not neglect to make proper satisfaction.
Enchiridion 354-430 A.D.

Valletta said:

Temporal punishment. Saint Augustine said:

For many sins seem in this world to be overlooked and visited with no punishment, whose punishment is reserved for the future (for it is not in vain that the day when Christ shall come as Judge of quick and dead is peculiarly named the day of judgment); just as, on the other hand, many sins are punished in this life, which nevertheless are pardoned, and shall bring down no punishment in the future life. Accordingly, in reference to certain temporal punishments, which in this life are visited upon sinners, the apostle, addressing those whose sins are blotted out, and not reserved for the final judgment, says: "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world."
. . .
We must beware, however, lest any one should suppose that gross sins, such as are committed by those who shall not inherit the kingdom of God, may be daily perpetrated,and daily stoned for by almsgiving, The life must be changed for the better; and almsgiving must be used to propitiate God for past sins, not to purchase impunity for the commission of such sins in the future. For He has given no man license to sin, although in His mercy He may blot out sins that are already committed, if we do not neglect to make proper satisfaction.
Enchiridion 354-430 A.D.

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where exactly are indulgences in that quote?

ArmyMatt said:

where exactly are indulgences in that quote?

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Prayer, acts of charity which used to include almsgiving, those are indulgences to reduce the temporal effects of sin.

Valletta said:

Prayer, acts of charity which used to include almsgiving, those are indulgences to reduce the temporal effects of sin.

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where does the quote actually say that?

ArmyMatt said:

where does the quote actually say that?

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The word "indulgence" is not used. A prayer though can be an indulgence. The prayer can come from others.

Valletta said:

The word "indulgence" is not used. A prayer though can be an indulgence. The prayer can come from others.

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so what makes an indulgence specifically an indulgence, and where is that particular distinction in the quote?