This world

VCR-2000 · Jul 27, 2022

I know that God created us in his own image on this planet, but this world has been corrupted by sin, and our entire human nature with it. I have trouble with accepting this reality - it makes me ask why humans were not created directly in Heaven, if this worldly life is supposed to be only temporary. I can't understand or believe how/why God would make such a perfect world, have it brutally fall to evil, and then instead of reviving it he decides to "start over" because he wants to have a new plan. That sounds like God would have actually failed if this was the case. I don't understand or like that we have to be born here as humans and grow up enjoying things that are potential sin and being wild, only to be told our enjoyment of it is temporary and that we need to be transformed.

It's dawning on me that maybe existence itself is useless because this is not our permanent home and everything material or that we pursue here, even things like family and friends, are meaningless. Meritocracy is meaningless. God or His son said that status is meaningless. Heaven and New Earth sound like the representation of the logically perfect implementation of the socialist utopia that conservative Christians warn people about doing down here.

Are there people here who have a hard time accepting these things similar to me?

Sabertooth · Jul 27, 2022

“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:9 NKJV

VCR-2000 · Jul 27, 2022

God might have different ways then we do, but that doesn't necessarily help me feel more positive about the situation. I am tired of this game where I want X or Y, I wonder why I don't or can't have it, but it's because God has a better plan that I don't understand. Can I have a break of it for once, please? I also know God is not a personal genie or servant, but it also says that his children will receive the desires of their hearts. It seems that nothing changes no matter how much tears, groveling, suffering one goes through.

And people grow old and life doesn't wait. So sometimes patience shouldn't be necessary or needed.

Sabertooth · Jul 27, 2022

VCR-2000 said:
I am tired of this game where I want X or Y, I wonder why I don't or can't have it, but it's because God has a better plan that I don't understand.

Right On Time, Roby Duke (2006)

Hawkins · Jul 27, 2022

VCR-2000 said:
it makes me ask why humans were not created directly in Heaven

Are there people here who have a hard time accepting these things similar to me?

It's just some math. In mathematics, it is about the topic of statistics and probabilities. There's a math term there, called the expected outcome.

Free will, in the end, means you are given the option to oppose God. If opposing God is a true option then some will do so, mathematically. If no one chooses it, it simultaneously means it's not a true option. So it all boils down to what extent of free will is given, versus what percentage will oppose God as the mathematical expected outcome.

In the end, you either accept and live with a sin-incompatible God or you choose to oppose Him to leave such a God. There's nothing in between. That is, you either live with Him or you don't in a forever sense.

Then it came the Law. Law in terms of the same math is to make a cut on the statistical distribution to define who is opposing enough to be excluded from being able to live with God.

Roughly speaking, by the extent of free will given to angels and judged by Law, there would be 2/3 of angels can live with God while the other 1/3 can't. As for humans, they are given a larger extent of free will thus there could be around or less than 1/3 of humans can live with God, in contrary to the angels.

However, another factor jumps in, the much more intelligent and capable angels (from those 1/3 fallen ones) can have an influence on the much more stupid humans. As a result, no humans can be saved by the judgment of Law. Humans together with everything on earth shall be destroyed as a whole (by the flood in Noah's story).

God however has Jesus for the redemption of humans from the judgment of Law. We are thus said to be under God's Grace, and not under Law.

disciple Clint · Jul 28, 2022

VCR-2000 said:
I know that God created us in his own image on this planet, but this world has been corrupted by sin, and our entire human nature with it. I have trouble with accepting this reality - it makes me ask why humans were not created directly in Heaven, if this worldly life is supposed to be only temporary. I can't understand or believe how/why God would make such a perfect world, have it brutally fall to evil, and then instead of reviving it he decides to "start over" because he wants to have a new plan. That sounds like God would have actually failed if this was the case. I don't understand or like that we have to be born here as humans and grow up enjoying things that are potential sin and being wild, only to be told our enjoyment of it is temporary and that we need to be transformed.

It's dawning on me that maybe existence itself is useless because this is not our permanent home and everything material or that we pursue here, even things like family and friends, are meaningless. Meritocracy is meaningless. God or His son said that status is meaningless. Heaven and New Earth sound like the representation of the logically perfect implementation of the socialist utopia that conservative Christians warn people about doing down here.

Are there people here who have a hard time accepting these things similar to me?

God wrote a complete book to tell us how to enjoy life to the fullest, I believe He has done His part, the rest is up to us.

mmarco · Jul 28, 2022

VCR-2000 said:
I know that God created us in his own image on this planet, but this world has been corrupted by sin, and our entire human nature with it. I have trouble with accepting this reality - it makes me ask why humans were not created directly in Heaven, if this worldly life is supposed to be only temporary. I can't understand or believe how/why God would make such a perfect world, have it brutally fall to evil, and then instead of reviving it he decides to "start over" because he wants to have a new plan. That sounds like God would have actually failed if this was the case.

This is a wrong idea; God has not failed, He does not have a new plan and heaven is not a start over, because we do not enter heaven as totally anaware babies. The point is that through this eartyhly life we must become aware of who we really are (=sinners) and that we need to be changed by God to become saints. God has created us with free will, and he wants to respect our free will. Therefore , he does not want to change us without our consent. This is the reason why, through this life, we must understand that we need God's grace and allow God to change and sanctify us, so that we can live a holy life in heaven.

VCR-2000 said:
I don't understand or like that we have to be born here as humans and grow up enjoying things that are potential sin and being wild, only to be told our enjoyment of it is temporary and that we need to be transformed.

The truth is that we need to be transformed and that we can only be transformed after consciously accepting to be transformed, because God respects our free will.

VCR-2000 said:
It's dawning on me that maybe existence itself is useless because this is not our permanent home and everything material or that we pursue here, even things like family and friends, are meaningless.

False. Love is not meaningless and neither are friends and family meaningless.

timf · Jul 28, 2022

Many people fault God for the evil in the world. Often they use their own comfort and enjoyment as the yardstick to measure God and find him coming up short.

In a way, creation is a demonstration that free will used apart from God will always lead to pain and suffering. Like the life of an alcoholic, it may not seem so at first.

Creation exposes two dynamic forces in the universe, living for self (the flesh) and living for others (love).

We have the opportunity to choose which force to align ourselves with.

BobRyan · Jul 28, 2022

VCR-2000 said:
I know that God created us in his own image on this planet, but this world has been corrupted by sin, and our entire human nature with it. I have trouble with accepting this reality - it makes me ask why humans were not created directly in Heaven, if this worldly life is supposed to be only temporary. I can't understand or believe how/why God would make such a perfect world, have it brutally fall to evil, and then instead of reviving it he decides to "start over" because he wants to have a new plan. That sounds like God would have actually failed if this was the case. I don't understand or like that we have to be born here as humans and grow up enjoying things that are potential sin and being wild, only to be told our enjoyment of it is temporary and that we need to be transformed.

It's dawning on me that maybe existence itself is useless because this is not our permanent home and everything material or that we pursue here, even things like family and friends, are meaningless.

Matt 5 -- the saints "inherit the Earth" - Rev 21 points us to the Earth made new - our eternal home is here as per Rev 21 and so also does heaven come down to Earth as we see in Rev 21.

Existence is not futile.

Sir Joseph · Aug 7, 2022

VCR-2000, if you base your belief or unbelief in the Christian faith upon understanding God's reasons for all he does, you'll never draw a conclusion. There's simply too many events and issues for anyone to possibly know and too much intellectual knowledge for anyone to fully understand. Consider though, we accept the existence of cars, computers, minds, and a conscience without fully understanding them. In effect, we don't determine truth or reality by how well we fully understand something, but by the evidence we gather or perceive.

There are in fact many answers to the questions you pose, but even if you studied and accepted them, more would follow. Might I suggest that your pursuit for truth in religion would best be achieved by assessing the evidence for a faith rather than expecting to understand the infinite number of questions applicable to any faith. It's not that all questions are wrong or to be suppressed, but they can be more productively examined after a faith's foundation is accepted as true.

The evidence for God and the Bible can be found by studying Christian apologetics, with the laws of science supporting God's existence and fulfilled prophesy demonstrating the Bible's Divine inspiration unlike any other religion or book. I'd encourage you to read some Christian apologetic books or watch some of the excellent videos available on YouTube - some of which I can recommend if you're interested.

Meanwhile, let me make one point that addresses some of the challenges you pose. Our purpose in life here has been expressed well in many ways. Jesus said that it's to love God and to love people. Many preacher/teachers have said that it's to grow our souls or our character in preparation for the real, eternal life and new world to come. In either case, the current fallen, messed up world ends up being a very suitable environment for achieving these goals, since difficulties do shape our character, reveal our mortality, and expose our need for a loving relationship with God and with others around us.

VCR-2000 · Sep 14, 2022

Am I the only one that wants the world to change for the better but not for the end of times to come soon? I am a little upset if it is because I only started my 30s and I wanted to enjoy living this kind of life until I was at least in my 60s.

Sir Joseph · Sep 18, 2022

VCR-2000 said:
Am I the only one that wants the world to change for the better but not for the end of times to come soon? I am a little upset if it is because I only started my 30s and I wanted to enjoy living this kind of life until I was at least in my 60s.

No, you're not the only one VCR-2000. I think it's human nature for all of us to want the world to change for the better. That's fine, but expecting this fallen world to become a utopia before Christ's return is unreasonable, given the Bible's numerous prophesies and historical trend.

Your pleasure for this life preempting any desire for the end times to come is another matter - one which I can relate to quite well. I too had an extraordinarily good life through my 20's, 30's, and 40's, not wanting them to end and essentially giving little thought to the rapture or world end times. I get it, and here's my response to you.

Go ahead and enjoy the blessed life the Lord's given to you for now, but recognize that as one's body ages, a Christian can look forward to a coming renewal of that physical body. And as one matures and sees more death, suffering, and injustice throughout life, leaving this fallen world for a new heavenly one also grows more appealing. Understand too, that for the saved believer, having an eye on the rapture, our eternity in heaven, and the new world is what gives us the hope that Paul teaches about. It's part of the Christian foundation that's best established before life's hardest challenges and setbacks occur - and those times inevitably occur sooner or later.

I don't think any Christian wants to endure the world's terrible end times - better to die first or be raptured. But what if the pre-mil rapture position is wrong and Christians today face the 7-year tribulation period? Sure, it'd be tough and scary, but the end result of being raptured with new bodies, visiting heaven, ruling in the millennial kingdom, and enjoying eternity in a new world would far outweigh any such trials or tribulation.

But what about you now, not wanting the current, good, earthly times to end too soon? Suppose you went to an outdoor picnic with perfect weather, your best friends or family, and all of your favorite foods to feast on for the day. Life may not be perfect, but it's sure enjoyable for the time being. After awhile someone comes in and hands you a legal document showing that you're one of the top 3 contenders for a unique world lottery that would enrich your life with a private island to govern, gorgeous mansion to live in, and a billion dollars to spend. Let's assume that money would buy you everything you could ever want or imagine. Now, how upset would you be if a whole fleet of black limos showed up soon after to advise you that the drawing was done and your name was selected? You had only to sign the acceptance form promptly and catch the ride to a waiting private jet immediately. Could you give up the remaining short afternoon time for a whole life of unimaginable perks and pleasures?

In short, I think a Christian can enjoy life now AND look forward to the rapture since the ultimate future is superior to the present. Given a choice though facing the unbeliever between living only for today versus living for today AND tomorrow, there's no comparison on which is more valuable. A non-believer's happiness is based upon temporary circumstances that are frequently lost throughout life and permanently lost upon death. A Christian's joy is based upon assured salvation and eternal life which is encouraging during this life's difficulties and continues upon and after death.

VCR-2000 · Sep 20, 2022

Sir Joseph said:
No, you're not the only one VCR-2000. I think it's human nature for all of us to want the world to change for the better. That's fine, but expecting this fallen world to become a utopia before Christ's return is unreasonable, given the Bible's numerous prophesies and historical trend.

Your pleasure for this life preempting any desire for the end times to come is another matter - one which I can relate to quite well. I too had an extraordinarily good life through my 20's, 30's, and 40's, not wanting them to end and essentially giving little thought to the rapture or world end times. I get it, and here's my response to you.

Go ahead and enjoy the blessed life the Lord's given to you for now, but recognize that as one's body ages, a Christian can look forward to a coming renewal of that physical body. And as one matures and sees more death, suffering, and injustice throughout life, leaving this fallen world for a new heavenly one also grows more appealing. Understand too, that for the saved believer, having an eye on the rapture, our eternity in heaven, and the new world is what gives us the hope that Paul teaches about. It's part of the Christian foundation that's best established before life's hardest challenges and setbacks occur - and those times inevitably occur sooner or later.

I don't think any Christian wants to endure the world's terrible end times - better to die first or be raptured. But what if the pre-mil rapture position is wrong and Christians today face the 7-year tribulation period? Sure, it'd be tough and scary, but the end result of being raptured with new bodies, visiting heaven, ruling in the millennial kingdom, and enjoying eternity in a new world would far outweigh any such trials or tribulation.

But what about you now, not wanting the current, good, earthly times to end too soon? Suppose you went to an outdoor picnic with perfect weather, your best friends or family, and all of your favorite foods to feast on for the day. Life may not be perfect, but it's sure enjoyable for the time being. After awhile someone comes in and hands you a legal document showing that you're one of the top 3 contenders for a unique world lottery that would enrich your life with a private island to govern, gorgeous mansion to live in, and a billion dollars to spend. Let's assume that money would buy you everything you could ever want or imagine. Now, how upset would you be if a whole fleet of black limos showed up soon after to advise you that the drawing was done and your name was selected? You had only to sign the acceptance form promptly and catch the ride to a waiting private jet immediately. Could you give up the remaining short afternoon time for a whole life of unimaginable perks and pleasures?

In short, I think a Christian can enjoy life now AND look forward to the rapture since the ultimate future is superior to the present. Given a choice though facing the unbeliever between living only for today versus living for today AND tomorrow, there's no comparison on which is more valuable. A non-believer's happiness is based upon temporary circumstances that are frequently lost throughout life and permanently lost upon death. A Christian's joy is based upon assured salvation and eternal life which is encouraging during this life's difficulties and continues upon and after death.

I don't want this earth to necessarily become a utopia, I just want a relative greatness back.

Sir Joseph · Sep 25, 2022

VCR-2000 said:
I don't want this earth to necessarily become a utopia, I just want a relative greatness back.

I understand, and most of us can agree with such a desire. Unfortunately, the Bible's prophesies for the future don't paint that picture. That's why a lot of pastor/preachers don't teach eschotology. People generally don't want to go to church to hear about impending gloom and doom.

Reasonable Christian · Sep 26, 2022

I would echo other responses here and emphasize that God wanted free creatures who would freely love Him, not robots who were programmed to do so. That entails that we have free will, including the freedom to sin and reject God.

I would also encourage you not to assume that God is a cosmic killjoy who wants to prevent you from doing a bunch of fun stuff because He says so. All of His rules are for our own good, and this is born out time and again in the lives of people who choose to sin and face unfortunate consequences.

Finally, although at some level all Christians long to be in God's presence in Heaven, this life still contains immeasurable joy that can be found in living for His glory.

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