On the Morality of Abortion

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Is abortion an immoral act?
If it constitutes the killing of a human being, then the answer would seem to be yes.
But if if is simply the termination of a clump of cells, then no.

So that leads us to the question: what is a living human being? Certainly, a pre-born organism (right from the fertilised egg to the nine-month old baby) is formed of living human cells. But so is an appendix.
What is it, then, that constitutes "personhood"?

The answer is: the faculty for consciousness. It is that which separates a living person from mere living human flesh.

The question then becomes: does an abortion terminate something that has the faculty for consciousness? If not, then an abortion is nothing more than the removal of a clump of human cells, no different from an appendectomy.
 
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There are many verses in the word of God that correlate to God knowing intimately about everything of us and predestined us. So, looking at the bible every life is precious not depending on whether what stage the baby is in. He also forms us the word says he's in hand with our formation before we are birthed into the world
 
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There are many verses in the word of God that correlate to God knowing intimately about everything of us and predestined us. So, looking at the bible every life is precious not depending on whether what stage the baby is in. He also forms us the word says he's in hand with our formation before we are birthed into the world
The bold part would mean he is the one responsible for everything we do.
 
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SimonPeter111

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You asked a few common questions
Your point of view should be that the fetus cannot be compared with the baby, right?
First of all, we need to determine what is "people"
Second, the fetus is a future natural person
So, the future man, is he a man?
If yes, abortion is not good
If not, I will continue to talk
Let's take a look at the biological definition of life“Life is a complex phenomenon of self-reproduction, growth and development, metabolism, genetic variation and response to stimuli exhibited by organisms”Clearly the fetus fits the criteria here,So the fetus is alive
Basic charge of abortion convicted, taking the life of a future man
Then again, human life cannot be compared with animals
So, abortion is clearly immoral, but whether it kills a person, I'm not so sure about it because in the biblical invalidity debate, the definition of a person is very vague
Finally I want to say that your abortion has nothing to do with me, but you can't say that abortion is not a bad act
 
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SimonPeter111

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Thank you all for your replies.
I don't want to break any forum rules, of course. Is it against the rules to discuss abortion? I looked, but couldn't find anything. If it is, could someone please direct me to the rule?
Of course not.I rarely see a friendly atheist like you in Chinese Internet
 
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ranunculus

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If it constitutes the killing of a human being, then the answer would seem to be yes.

I have questions.

Is every killing of a human immoral?

What if abortion is merely the termination of a pregnancy and if that results in a human being dying that's a side effect but not the primary goal?
 
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Katania

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Is abortion an immoral act?

I had a pregnancy scare years ago (either the pregnancy was a false alarm, or I had a very early miscarriage...but at the time I assumed it was a false alarm). I remember sitting up all night searching the internet for answers. Not from a theological perspective (although there was a bombardment of that, which was unwelcome to me as I was purely a cultural Christian at that point) but from a scientific perspective.

By the time it was sunrise, I'd made up my mind that if I was pregnant I would keep the baby. Just the thought that I might be pregnant was enough to awaken maternal instincts. Those instincts are very strong. If a woman has them, and has an abortion anyway, I think psychologically it's likely to be pretty harmful (and don't forget women are often placed under pressure to abort by men who don't want the responsibility & cost of fatherhood).

There are also the people working in the medical profession to consider, and the psychological impact performing abortions on a daily basis has on them. And, of course, the man who was involved in creating the foetus - who might be devastated by the loss of opportunity to be a father. I'm not an anti-feminist per se, but I dislike the way feminism often discourages women from contemplating that impact of abortion. I think it's right to extend compassion and support to the man who loses an opportunity to be a father. It's never NOT right to extend compassion to somebody who's hurting.

I think people hear the word "immoral" and they flip out because it has such an old fashioned "stone them...put them to death!!" harshly judgemental ring to it. As does sin. But often what's classed as sin or immorality is really behaviour that has a negative impact on us or others. Emotionally, psychologically...maybe to the degree that it takes us down a wrong path (since emotional/psychological harm does often result in that).

Even by 6 weeks the foetus has taken a distinctly human looking form - and most abortions are conducted a bit later than 6 weeks though before 12. I think people conducting abortions probably have to naturally have a tougher mindset (or harder heart depending on how you want to view it) than the average person....or else they have to develop one. This is an issue I also consider in terms of whether I should eat meat. Knowing that somebody has to kill that animal - and that however humanely it's carried out, it's an act that has an impact on the person doing it.

So even if you reject the notion that the foetus has a soul or is sentient, there are these other elements to consider in deciding "is this a moral act?" An obvious answer might be "okay, but even if it isn't moral...aren't there lots of other human acts & behaviours - including spending more time judging others than searching inward for our own "sin" or unhealthy thinking patterns - that are immoral?" and the answer to that is a resounding yes.

That's possibly not going into it in the philosophical depth you're looking for in terms of what it means to be human. All I can really say to that is that a pregnant woman doesn't necessarily have the time nor luxury to read lengthy philosophical & theological discourses on the nature of being human. Ultimately she has to consider what the least harmful, from her personal perspective (and only she really knows what that is) course of action will be.

If she's contemplating an abortion, she has to make that decision quickly and preferably without other people muddying her difficult decision making process by imposing their own political, philosophical or theological ideologies on her. I think even if she 100% rejects any idea that the foetus has a soul or is sentient...the issue of foetal sentience/soul-having may not be the only moral issue at stake for the pregnant woman. Sadly, this is one of those tremendously upsetting, difficult social issues that offers people an opportunity to virtue signal at another person's expense.
 
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Is abortion an immoral act?
If it constitutes the killing of a human being, then the answer would seem to be yes.
But if if is simply the termination of a clump of cells, then no.

So that leads us to the question: what is a living human being? Certainly, a pre-born organism (right from the fertilised egg to the nine-month old baby) is formed of living human cells. But so is an appendix.
What is it, then, that constitutes "personhood"?

The answer is: the faculty for consciousness. It is that which separates a living person from mere living human flesh.

The question then becomes: does an abortion terminate something that has the faculty for consciousness? If not, then an abortion is nothing more than the removal of a clump of human cells, no different from an appendectomy.
When you are involved in your next abortion, please ask to see what came out. They may not allow that, but ask. You should be able to see for yourself if it’s all just a clump of cells or not.
 
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chevyontheriver

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[QUOTE="InterestedAtheist, post: 76847380, ]

The answer is: the faculty for consciousness. It is that which separates a living person from mere living human flesh.

The question then becomes: does an abortion terminate something that has the faculty for consciousness? If not, then an abortion is nothing more than the removal of a clump of human cells, no different from an appendectomy.[/QUOTE]
Do I have that when asleep, or if I faint, or if I black out in an accident, or am put out for surgery, or am in a medically induced coma, or a non-induced coma? Can you snuff me in those circumstances? Does a born baby have consciousness? How do you measure that to know? How about a 22 week gestation premature delivered baby? How about a 15 week old baby in the womb? How do you say this one has it and the other one does not?
 
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chevyontheriver

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You’re not allowed to argue that abortion is moral on this form.
We have LOTS of people on CF who DO argue for abortion. Probably a higher proportion here than in the general public. And CF is supposedly Christian. Not quite.
 
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Thank you all for your replies.
I don't want to break any forum rules, of course. Is it against the rules to discuss abortion? I looked, but couldn't find anything. If it is, could someone please direct me to the rule?
It falls under promotion of abortion if you say it’s moral or correct.
 
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Petros2015

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Thank you all for your replies.
I don't want to break any forum rules, of course. Is it against the rules to discuss abortion? I looked, but couldn't find anything. If it is, could someone please direct me to the rule?

Statement of Purpose - Site Rules- Updated 8-27-18
  • Abortion, adultery, premarital sex, and marijuana use may be discussed, but encouraging participation in these activities is not allowed. Illegal activities may not be encouraged or promoted*.
Seems to be the only mention in the rules.

The * goes to

* Promotion is defined as encouragement of the progress, growth, or acceptance of something including advertising and publicity.

Historically, it seems to have been defined clearly as as immoral act for Christians as far back as the Didache (1st or 2nd century) Sort of a very early proto-catechism for new converts. There was also a "thou shalt not kill what has been begotten" line as well - no sneaky taking your babies out afterwards and leaving them to the wolves. I think standard protocol back in the day was you had a waiting period where you were allowed to "return to sender" if you didn't like the gender you got or the goods seemed damaged.

(somewhere around 2:24)

Didache - Wikipedia




 
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chevyontheriver

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Statement of Purpose - Site Rules- Updated 8-27-18
  • Abortion, adultery, premarital sex, and marijuana use may be discussed, but encouraging participation in these activities is not allowed. Illegal activities may not be encouraged or promoted*.
Seems to be the only mention in the rules.

The * goes to

* Promotion is defined as encouragement of the progress, growth, or acceptance of something including advertising and publicity.

Historically, it seems to have been defined clearly as as immoral act for Christians as far back as the Didache (1st or 2nd century) Sort of a very early proto-catechism for new converts. There was also a "thou shalt not kill what has been begotten" line as well - no sneaky taking your babies out afterwards and leaving them to the wolves. I think standard protocol back in the day was you had a waiting period where you were allowed to "return to sender" if you didn't like the gender you got or the goods seemed damaged.

(somewhere around 2:24)

Didache - Wikipedia



Abortion gets lots of promotion in CF. I think there are folks who are working hard trying to shape opinion here to accept abortion among Christians. What if Russian boys were discovered trying to influence opinion on some other matter? I think it’s pretty much the same.

Thanks for bringing the actual rules up.
 
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Petros2015

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Abortion gets lots of promotion in CF.

Sure, but I don't think that's the intent of the poster (or mine)

What if Russian boys were discovered trying to influence opinion on some other matter?

7 in 10 Women Who Have Had an Abortion Identify as a Christian - Lifeway Research

Speaking of Russians, I'm with Tolstoy on this one

upload_2022-8-6_10-19-11.png
 
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chevyontheriver

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We have LOTS of people on CF who DO argue for abortion. Probably a higher proportion here than in the general public. And CF is supposedly Christian. Not quite.
Take it up with the mods.
 
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Katania

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Sure, but I don't think that's the intent of the poster (or mine)



7 in 10 Women Who Have Had an Abortion Identify as a Christian - Lifeway Research

Speaking of Russians, I'm with Tolstoy on this one

View attachment 319449

I'm sure there are lots and lots of people out there working very hard on changing themselves, and no doubt were in Tolstoy's day too!

I was once asked, by a hospital consultant, (during a college placement) to counsel a pregnant Christian who was in the middle of her university studies. She'd been raised to regard abortion as a sin, by parents who had decided it would be best if she had a termination. There was nothing I could really offer her other than an opportunity to talk if she wanted to. I certainly wasn't going to try to counsel her into getting an abortion - which appeared to be what the consultant expected me to do.

Suddenly her very strongly held belief was an inconvenience to the very parents who had brought her up to have that strong belief. An obstacle to be overcome. A belief she could go back to once she'd had the abortion - and, presumably, repented. In that sort of scenario I think there's often a lack of meaningful communication beyond "this is a sin, don't do it", secrecy and compartmentalisation of sin followed by "we'll never talk of it again" or even an attitude of "as part of repenting we'll redouble our vociferous anti abortion campaigning."

A lot of the US population are agnostic or atheists. If the survey you cite is correct, it begs the question of what agnostic/atheist families are getting right, to ensure that the women in their families don't have abortions at the rate that Christian women are getting them. I would venture the possibility that abortion is less likely in situations where women have a strong, non judgemental support network where they can have open communication about matters like contraception - and, indeed, how to lay down boundaries with men in a confident, realistic way that won't get them ridiculed in modern society.
 
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