Will unborn babies be Raptured out of the wombs of ungodly women?

Blade said:

No offense seems a silly question for me.

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Me too.

Blade said:

Seems no would be the answer.

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Looks to me like you win the internet tonight.

Woe to pregnant women in those days.

ewq1938 said:

The vials do not pour until the second coming, the time of God's wrath so they cannot happen prior to the second coming.

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Jesus's return is the second coming. There is nothing in Matthew 24 supporting the vials of God's wrath poured out after Matthew 24:30b.

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Juan777 said:

Assuming children are Raptured because they are before the age of accountability (generally believed to be up to 7 years old, where they could be too young to understand right and wrong and salvation, ....) and they are Raptured. Would this go down to unborn children as well?
Would the mothers of these children end up with their womb/stomach opened by the Rapture, or would the Rapture only apply with children who are outside of the womb and are birthed?

Unfortunately, children who are born after the Rapture can't be Raptured because it already passed? However, the good news is, if the age of accountability is 7, then no children will likely reach 7 years before the battle of Armageddon if sticking with a strict 7 year time-line and they may be next in line to populate the world during the Millenium Kingdom!

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I would love it if someone could provide me with a biblical passage that mentions a Rapture.

ewq1938 said:

All the examples given show that people have taught Christ would come and rapture people before the Great Tribulation before Darby taught it. Even Paul addressed the idea of Christ being able to come for the rapture before the Great Tribulation started. Paul said it could not happen, citing two Great Tribulation related events that had to happen first. So, the pre-trib rapture has been taught and believed in various forms since the time of Paul.

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Again, I don't see anything more than the idea that Christ will come initially to deliver the Church before venting on the wicked. This could take place via Pre-Wrath or Mid-Trib.

On the other hand, Pre-Trib has Christ coming *before* the appearance of Antichrist, and not just prior to Christ's Coming in judgment. Please quote me from any of those people indicating this?

What makes Pre-Trib so weird is that the whole concept of Imminency takes on a new flavor. Whereas originally it had more to do with the obscurity of Christ's Coming for unbelievers, and his Coming to defeat Antichrist in an unexpected time, Pre-Tribs began to say that Christ could actually come *at any time,* with no need to defeat Antichrist at his Coming at all.

Where do any of your supposed "Pre-Trib" references indicate this? Where do they differentiate between Christ coming at *any time in history* from his Coming in relation to Antichrist's appearance?

Let me put it this way. Christ's Coming traditionally had to do with his Coming to defeat and to destroy the Antichrist. Those who differentiated Christ's Coming into phases, one to deliver the Church and one to destroy the persecutors of the Church, were not intending to remove Christ's Coming from the context of Antichrist's destruction. They were just trying to point out that Christ was coming to save the Church, and not judge her!

Pre-Trib completely severed Christ's Coming from Antichrist's destruction. And yes, Mid-Tribs do this also. They want to believe that the entire period of Antichrist's reign is a punishment from God that the Church must be caught out of to be delivered from it.

But as I said, Pre-Tribs have gone much farther than Mid-Tribs by indicating that Christ can come *at any time.* And that is weird because it suggests that at any time in history, Christ could come and immediately set into motion the reign of Antichrist. Not only was this not the typical teaching in Church history, but it just doesn't make historical sense.

The rise of AntiChristianity has been progressive, and has not always been "at the ready," in case Christ suddenly appeared. He could not come at any point in history since God has "set a day" in advance.

Chris Thomas Shepherd said:

I would love it if someone could provide me with a biblical passage that mentions a Rapture.

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The Hebrew word transliterated "laqah" is "to rapture".
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h3947/kjv/wlc/0-1/The KJV translates Strong's H3947 in the following manner: take (747x), receive (61x), take away (51x), fetch (31x), bring (25x), get (6x), take out (6x), carry away (5x), married (4x), buy (3x), miscellaneous (26x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
to take, get, fetch, lay hold of, seize, receive, acquire, buy, bring, marry, take a wife, snatch, take away...
... to take from, take out of, take, carry away, take away... " ... to take to or for a person, procure, get, take possession of, select, choose, take in marriage,

God the Word "took" a rib from the Adam and built a female Adam person.
God the Word "took" the Adam and set him in the garden of Eden.
The angels "took" lot and family out of Sodom.
YHVH "took" enoch to heaven.
And so on and so forth.

Chris Thomas Shepherd said:

I would love it if someone could provide me with a biblical passage that mentions a Rapture.

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ewq1938 said:

All the examples given show that people have taught Christ would come and rapture people before the Great Tribulation before Darby taught it. Even Paul addressed the idea of Christ being able to come for the rapture before the Great Tribulation started. Paul said it could not happen, citing two Great Tribulation related events that had to happen first. So, the pre-trib rapture has been taught and believed in various forms since the time of Paul.

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I have no doubt that Darby produced material from preceding material. However, Dispensationalism is novel in history, and those who held beliefs prior to his and similar to his did not have his theology. Separating Christ's Coming into 2 Comings, 7 years apart, is not something I see anywhere prior to Darby. But please prove me wrong? Show me any teaching prior to Darby that isn't just a form of Pre-Wrath or Mid-Trib?

These positions all wished to remove the Church from "God's Wrath." But few wished to separate Christ's Coming from the destruction of Antichrist. Darby does this by completely removing the Rapture from the time of Antichrist's Revelation, marking it an "imminent event."

The Early Church largely saw Daniel's 70th Week as fulfilled in the death of Christ and in the fall of Jerusalem, 70 AD. Only a few, like Irenaeus and Hippolytus, held to a future view of the 70th Week.

The rise of futurism, after Ribera, began to look beyond historicism to dismiss the value of future prophecy for the present. And so began a lot of the prophetic speculation that is devoid of spiritual value and amounts to so much horoscope-reading!

In reality, futurism was always designed to bring spiritual sense to the present, and not just predict the future. As Antichrist is coming, so already there are many Antichrists.

So all of this talk about the Church avoiding tribulation is not helping the Church who is undergoing tribulation now. It is cancelling the whole value of the book of Revelation, in my opinion.

Darby did that. Prior to Darby I don't see that. Obviously, there are precursors to his position. But Dispensationalism, as such, is unique, in my opinion. And those who had PreTrib-like views didn't really establish a theological system supporting it until Darby.

ewq1938 said:

And Pre-trib. When the rapture is separate from the second coming and wrath, Pre-trib can and does exist. Darby merely built upon something that had long existed.

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Well, I'm willing to learn if you can produce statements from these people with a developed theological system. But as far as I can see, there is only the effort at relieving the Church of judgment at his 2nd Coming. Darby rendered the Rapture an imminent, any-moment event, prior to the revelation of Antichrist. Can you produce quotes from any of these people indicating that? I doubt it, because 2 Thes 2 teaches the exact opposite of this!

I think there is an effort to associate Pre-Trib with early Futurism in the Church, along with the idea of the Church not being the object of God's Wrath at Christ's Coming. But this is not a true association between Pre-Tribism and Early Church beliefs.

Obviously, Christians have always believed that Christ is coming back to *deliver* the Church from her oppressors--not judge her. This is not Pre-Tribism! To say that Christ's Coming has a 2-fold purpose, to deliver the Church and to judge the Antichrist, is not Pre-Tribism! To say that Christ's coming to judge the world is not the same thing as Christ coming to save the Church is *not* Pre-Tribism!

So much for any sense of early Pre-Tribism in the Church. These normal Christian beliefs are conflated later in history during the resurrection of Futurist teachings until yes, some divided Christ's coming into different times.

Again, if this is just a form of Pre-Wrath, Christ's Coming is still taking place at the same time, simply with different purposes. Christ comes for his Church, and immediately after comes to judge. This is not a form of Pre-Trib!

Mid-Trib is perhaps a form of Pre-Trib, I should think, since there is a division of Christ's Coming into separate time periods. However, the theology is not dealing with the idea of Christ's Coming as a secret Rapture, a mysterious imminent time before Antichrist even arrives. That seems to be Darby, or am I wrong?

George Ladd is someone I've respect for a long time. Here is an interesting article on this: History and origins Of Pretibulationalism by George Eldon Ladd

Dave Watchman said:

"And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.

"The stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

-->"Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.<--
​

"And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

​

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Thank you Dave, much appreciated.

ewq1938 said:

That's an argument from silence since the vials of wrath are not mentioned in the book of Matthew at all. However, the second coming and rapture (gathering of the saints) is mentioned.

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Jesus's Second Coming is in Revelation though in Revelation 19. The seven vials of God's wrath are in Revelation 16, with nothing about taking place after Jesus's Second Coming.

And several of the bowls of God's wrath intensify the judgments of the trumpets judgements.

trumpet 2 - a third of the sea became as blood and a third part of the creatures in the sea died.

vial 2 - the sea became as blood and every living soul in the sea died.

trumpet 3 - a third parts of the rivers and springs became poisoned.

vial 3 - the rivers and springs became blood.

vial 4 - men are scorched with great heat.

trumpet 4 - a third part of the sun, moon, stars darkened, resulting in a third part of the day and night into darkness.

vial 5 - the beast kingdom plunged into darkness.

____________________________________________

It is preposterous to say that the vials of God's wrath are not part of the Great Tribulation - for the sake of denying the timing of the rapture/resurrection in 1Thessalonians5:9-11 to be before the time of God's wrath, and also the time when Satan will be cast down to earth having great wrath.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Chris Thomas Shepherd said:

I would love it if someone could provide me with a biblical passage that mentions a Rapture.

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I did. Did u not see it?
And this is only the beginning of instruction on it from the WORD.
The word "rapture" is from The Latin, which is long long long after the Hebrew.
Also, consider this: Adam was taken/laqah to the 3rd heaven, to Paradise, in Mount Eden, and set in the Garden to work in it and to guard it.
Adam got cast down from the 3rd heaven, back to the earth below, from the holy Mount of God, mount Eden, from Paradise, where the Tree of Life is in the midst of it.

"The Hebrew word transliterated "laqah" is "to rapture".
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h3947/kjv/wlc/0-1/The KJV translates Strong's H3947 in the following manner: take (747x), receive (61x), take away (51x), fetch (31x), bring (25x), get (6x), take out (6x), carry away (5x), married (4x), buy (3x), miscellaneous (26x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
to take, get, fetch, lay hold of, seize, receive, acquire, buy, bring, marry, take a wife, snatch, take away...
... to take from, take out of, take, carry away, take away... " ... to take to or for a person, procure, get, take possession of, select, choose, take in marriage,

God the Word "took" a rib from the Adam and built a female Adam person.
God the Word "took" the Adam and set him in the garden of Eden.
The angels "took" lot and family out of Sodom.
YHVH "took" Enoch to heaven.
And so on and so forth. "

Chris Thomas Shepherd said:

I would love it if someone could provide me with a biblical passage that mentions a Rapture.

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The big snatch that everyone talks about is in the gospel to Paul's gentiles.

Some are kinda like that, with the angels gathering the wheat and the tares.

The others are in the Gospel of the Kingdom for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel:

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to Heaven but He that came down from Heaven, even the Son of man which is in Heaven.

John 20:17 Ιησους saith unto her, Touch Me not for I am not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say unto them, I ascend unto My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron, and her child was caught up unto God and to His throne. (Isaiah 66:7-8, Revelation 2:27)

Revelation 11:11-12 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them and they stood upon their feet, and great fear fell upon them which saw them.[12] And they heard a great voice from Heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to Heaven in a cloud, and their enemies beheld them. (Revelation 11:4, Revelation 1:20, Revelation 7:4-8)

ewq1938 said:

Actually it is preposterous to claim they happen anywhere within the Great Tribulation. They don't pour until the 7th trump has sounded, which is after the Great Tribulation is over.

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Revelation 11 does not say the Great Tribulation is over when the 7th trumpet is sounded.