What is the difficulty of getting into heaven?

fhansen said:

No, the free gift of justification is the foundation, the beginning of salvation. Even at that point the human will is involved as we can say "no" to the gift of faith, and we can say "no" at any point thereafter. We're not forced to remain in Him. But to the extent that we do, to the extent that we cooperate in doing His will with His grace we're transformed into His own image and our justice or holiness grow more yet. That's man's very purpose, resulting from knowing and loving God.

God is producing something in the whole endeavor called creation, something very good, something much better than He began with: beings who love as He does and that necessarily involves choice as we embrace and act upon that love He gives. He's overcoming sin in us, reversing Adam's rebellion and cultivating holiness, growing us in love rather than just stocking heaven with some otherwise worthless sinners who nonetheless believe.

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This is promoting selfwill work salvation !

fhansen said:

Yeah...that's not it. God's not interested in pretending that we're just, when we're not. He forgives and takes away our sins and then plants the seeds of His own righteousness in us. God, alone, can justify man, can make us who we we're created to be as we turn to Him in faith.

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people." Jer 31:33-34

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Thats not it ? The blood and righteousness of Christ ? My how we have fallen !

renniks said:

Do you believe you love perfectly?
I don't.
It's all grace.

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Again, we have three basic concepts going on here, all involving the absolute need for grace. Many Protestants believe that no righteousness is possible for man, or that none is necessary in any case in order to be justified, such that, according to some, sin/personal unrighteousness aren't a concern for a believer: grace covers it all.

Servant believes that personal righteousness, from Christ, is required and apparently believes that grace causes a true believer to be totally changed and made perfect all at once-and that this must be the case.

The church, historically, has taught that only God can turn man to Himself an justify man, by grace though faith, but that even then man can resist that gift of faith and say "no". But, having said "yes", he enters a state of justice defined first of all by union with God: he is justified and the righteousness of God is planted in him. He can continue to remain in God, picking up his cross and following as best he can whereupon God will cultivate in him even stronger and greater and more confirmed righteousness yet, defined primarily as love.

We continue to feed off of His grace, of His life in us, or not. Because we can still say "no" at any point along the way. The "way" is a journey, that we must be on, and it’s a journey to perfection, with trials and errors and challenges and slips and testing and, hopefully refining. As we stay the course we become more and more like God- and that’s man’s very purpose or telos. At the end of our lives we'll know with 100% certainty how we've done with what we’ve been given as the Just Judge renders His determination.

We can have a strong level of assurance based on fruit in our lives, but yet a healthy, somewhat guarded assurance due to our limitations, weaknesses, and tendency to sin. He’s wholly trustworthy and true while we’re the wildcard in it all. And He’s only seeking to draw us into greater and greater integrity, meaning greater and greater love for Himself and neighbor.

The church teaches that absolute perfect sinlessness is not possible for man in this life, but that growth in righteousness and away from sin, especially those sins that lead to death as they're directly opposed to and destroy love in us, is absolutely necessary. It's a journey, an incomparably good and worthy one, and one we must be on, with God.

Brightfame52 said:

Thats not it ? The blood and righteousness of Christ ? My how we have fallen !

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Yes, the Reformation caused quite a fall. The Blood of Christ not only wins forgiveness of sin, but also deliverance from its slavery - the overcoming of it. He didn't do all that just so we could and would remain in our sins.

"And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:3-4

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13

Brightfame52 said:

This is promoting selfwill work salvation !

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Study Romans for yourself. And the ECFs. And early church teachings and current church teachings. You'll leave the nonsense behind. For yourself.

fhansen said:

We can have a strong level of assurance based on fruit in our lives, but yet a healthy, somewhat guarded assurance due to our limitations, weaknesses, and tendency to sin.

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That's not what scripture teaches. It teaches we can know we have eternal life.

And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Interestingly, the same chapter said we know we love others if we keep the commandments.
So if we break a commandment it's an indicator that we are weak in our love for humanity, but it's not an indication that we are no longer in Christ.

No everyone advances in a straight line, always upward, on this journey. Most go through valleys and hilltops...and if you die in a valley, God doesn't abandon you there.

fhansen said:

Yes, the Reformation caused quite a fall. The Blood of Christ not only wins forgiveness of sin, but also deliverance from its slavery - the overcoming of it. He didn't do all that just so we could and would remain in our sins.

"And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:3-4

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13

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Im washed in His Blood and clothed in His Righteousness, so Im pure, holy , spotless before God !

fhansen said:

Study Romans for yourself. And the ECFs. And early church teachings and current church teachings. You'll leave the nonsense behind. For yourself.

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You can keep your doctrines of men and self righteousness. May I be found clothed in the spotless righteousness of Jesus Christ, thats my only hope and plea friend, and by Gods grace may it be yours one day.

renniks said:

No one ever followed the law perfectly except Jesus. No one is saying go out and sin so that you might get more grace, but that doing good and living upright doesn't save you in anyway.
"I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

"So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith."

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The law itself came with instruction for what to do when the people sinned, so there has never been the need to follow the law perfectly. Repentance doesn't change the fact that that we have not kept the law perfectly, so either we need to have perfect obedience and repentance has no value or repentance has value and we don't need to have perfect obedience, and the consistent message of the prophets was the call for repentance, not for perfect obedience. In Romans 3:21-22, it does not say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes through perfect obedience, but rather they only way to become righteous that they testify about is through faith in Christ for all who believe, so it is not the case that if we can't keep the law perfectly, then we don't need to obey it.

There can be any number of reason for obeying God's law, some of which are correct while some are not, so there is a huge difference between saying that our salvation does not require us to obey God's law in order to earn it as a wage, which there are many verses that support, and saying that our salvation does not require us to obey God's law for any reason, which there are many verses that speak against. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so living in obedience to God's law is inherently part of the concept of Jesus saving us from not living in obedience to it, so there is a correct role of obedience to God's law in regard to our salvation and what is said against incorrect roles should not be mistaken as speaking against the correct role. So for example:

Galatians 3:21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.

The above verse need to be reconciled with these verses:

In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus said that the way to inherit eternal life is by obey the greatest two commandments. In Hebrews 5:9, Jesus gives eternal salvation to those who obey him. In Romans 2:6-7, those who persist in doing good will be given eternal life. In Romans 6:19-23, no longer presenting ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin is contrasted with now presenting ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ. In Revelation 14:12, those who obey God's commandments are given access to the tree of life. In Deuteronomy 30:15-16 and Romans 10:5-8, our faith says that those who obey God's law will attain life by it. In Deuteronomy 32:47, God's law is our very life. In Proverbs 3:18, she is a tree of life for all who take hold of her. In Proverbs 6:23, for the commandment is a lamp and the teaching a light, and the reproofs of discipline are the way of life. In Proverbs 10:17, whoever heeds instruction is on the path to life, but he who rejects reproof leads others astray. Psalms 119:93 I will never forget your precepts, for by them you have given me life. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him His way, in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through His law, and in John 17:3, knowing God is eternal life.

So yes, I think that the Bible is abundantly clear that obedience to God's law is the gift of eternal life and the only way that I can see to reconcile all of the above verses with Galatians 3:21 is by recognizing that while God's law was given as a gift to teach us how to received the gift of eternal life, there can be incorrect motivations for obeying it that do not lead to eternal life, such as earning it as a wage. While Paul denied in Romans 4:4-5 that we can earn our righteousness as a wage, he also said in Romans 2:13 that only doers of the law will be declared righteous, so righteousness is indeed by the law, and again the way to reconcile this with Galatians 3:21 is that there must be a reason or reasons why our righteousness requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage, such as faith in Christ insofar as Romans 3:31 says that our faith upholds God's law.

Brightfame52 said:

You can keep your doctrines of men and self righteousness. May I be found clothed in the spotless righteousness of Jesus Christ, thats my only hope and plea friend, and by Gods grace may it be yours one day.

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God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so to rely on the law that God has instructions for righteousness is to rely on God for our righteousness, not on ourselves. If I were lost and asked someone for directions, then I would be putting my faith in them by obediently relying on their instructions and thinking that I was acting on my own to save myself from being lost would not be giving credit where it is due. If God's law were His instructions for how to become self-righteous and God does not what us to become self-righteous, then it would follow that God therefore does not want to be obeyed, which is absurd, especially considering that all throughout the Bible, God wanted His people to repent and to return to obedience to His law, therefore it is not God's instructions for how to become self-righteous, but rather it is His instructions for how to testify about His righteousness, which is why our good works in obedience to it give glory to God (Matthew 5:13-16). Christ expressed the righteousness God by living in obedience to God's law, so that is also the way that we live when we have being imputed with the righteousness of God.

Brightfame52 said:

You can keep your doctrines of men and self righteousness. May I be found clothed in the spotless righteousness of Jesus Christ, thats my only hope and plea friend, and by Gods grace may it be yours one day.

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Whatever. Yours is a doctrine of man. Of your own and of those who's private interpretations you've bought into

Soyeong said:

God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so to rely on the law that God has instructions for righteousness is to rely on God for our righteousness, not on ourselves. If I were lost and asked someone for directions, then I would be putting my faith in them by obediently relying on their instructions and thinking that I was acting on my own to save myself from being lost would not be giving credit where it is due. If God's law were His instructions for how to become self-righteous and God does not what us to become self-righteous, then it would follow that God therefore does not want to be obeyed, which is absurd, especially considering that all throughout the Bible, God wanted His people to repent and to return to obedience to His law, therefore it is not God's instructions for how to become self-righteous, but rather it is His instructions for how to testify about His righteousness, which is why our good works in obedience to it give glory to God (Matthew 5:13-16). Christ expressed the righteousness God by living in obedience to God's law, so that is also the way that we live when we have being imputed with the righteousness of God.

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You trusting in yourself and law righteousness. Christ came for His People and kept the Law and fulfilled all the righteousness of the Law for us, every minute holy detail of it, perfectly, and thats what is imputed as their righteousness. Gods true people now walk in faith understanding the righteousness required by the Law has been given to us as free gift donation of righteousness. Rom 5:17

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ)

fhansen said:

Whatever. Yours is a doctrine of man. Of your own and of those who's private interpretations you've bought into

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We will see on that Great Day who trusted in man !

Soyeong said:

The law itself came with instruction for what to do when the people sinned, so there has never been the need to follow the law perfectly. Repentance doesn't change the fact that that we have not kept the law perfectly, so either we need to have perfect obedience and repentance has no value or repentance has value and we don't need to have perfect obedience, and the consistent message of the prophets was the call for repentance, not for perfect obedience. In Romans 3:21-22, it does not say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes through perfect obedience, but rather they only way to become righteous that they testify about is through faith in Christ for all who believe, so it is not the case that if we can't keep the law perfectly, then we don't need to obey it.

There can be any number of reason for obeying God's law, some of which are correct while some are not, so there is a huge difference between saying that our salvation does not require us to obey God's law in order to earn it as a wage, which there are many verses that support, and saying that our salvation does not require us to obey God's law for any reason, which there are many verses that speak against. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so living in obedience to God's law is inherently part of the concept of Jesus saving us from not living in obedience to it, so there is a correct role of obedience to God's law in regard to our salvation and what is said against incorrect roles should not be mistaken as speaking against the correct role. So for example:

Galatians 3:21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.

The above verse need to be reconciled with these verses:

In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus said that the way to inherit eternal life is by obey the greatest two commandments. In Hebrews 5:9, Jesus gives eternal salvation to those who obey him. In Romans 2:6-7, those who persist in doing good will be given eternal life. In Romans 6:19-23, no longer presenting ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin is contrasted with now presenting ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ. In Revelation 14:12, those who obey God's commandments are given access to the tree of life. In Deuteronomy 30:15-16 and Romans 10:5-8, our faith says that those who obey God's law will attain life by it. In Deuteronomy 32:47, God's law is our very life. In Proverbs 3:18, she is a tree of life for all who take hold of her. In Proverbs 6:23, for the commandment is a lamp and the teaching a light, and the reproofs of discipline are the way of life. In Proverbs 10:17, whoever heeds instruction is on the path to life, but he who rejects reproof leads others astray. Psalms 119:93 I will never forget your precepts, for by them you have given me life. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him His way, in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through His law, and in John 17:3, knowing God is eternal life.

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So yes, I think that the Bible is abundantly clear that obedience to God's law is the gift of eternal life

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Not for the human race (Romans 3:20; Galatians 3:21).

and the only way that I can see to reconcile all of the above verses with Galatians 3:21 is by recognizing that while God's law was given as a gift to teach us how to received the gift of eternal life, there can be incorrect motivations for obeying it that do not lead to eternal life, such as earning it as a wage. While Paul denied in Romans 4:4-5 that we can earn our righteousness as a wage, he also said in Romans 2:13 that only doers of the law will be declared righteous, so righteousness is indeed by the law,

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Not for the human race (Romans 3:20; Galatians 3:21).

and again the way to reconcile this with Galatians 3:21 is that there must be a reason or reasons why our righteousness requires us to choose to be doers of the law

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Understanding that "doers of the law" in the New Covenant are doing love of God and neighbor which is the fulfillment of the law, "and every other commandment there may be" (Romans 13:8-10).

other than in order to earn it as a wage, such as faith in Christ insofar as Romans 3:31 says that our faith upholds God's law.

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Yes, it upholds it as a means of sanctification, not as justification (imputed righteousness).

Brightfame52 said:

We will see on that Great Day who trusted in man !

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K

Soyeong said:

God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so
to rely on the law that God has instructions for righteousness is to rely on God for our righteousness, not on ourselves.

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The instructions for righteousness (justification) is "faith" (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21, Romans 3:24-25, Romans 3:28).

Brightfame52 said:

Im washed in His Blood and clothed in His Righteousness, so Im pure, holy , spotless before God !

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Well, as long as that means that you, personally, are pure, holy, and spotless, i.e. sinless, I'm sure you'll be fine. There's certainly nothing to be condemned for in that.

renniks said:

That's not what scripture teaches. It teaches we can know we have eternal life.

And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Interestingly, the same chapter said we know we love others if we keep the commandments.
So if we break a commandment it's an indicator that we are weak in our love for humanity, but it's not an indication that we are no longer in Christ.

No everyone advances in a straight line, always upward, on this journey. Most go through valleys and hilltops...and if you die in a valley, God doesn't abandon you there.

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The bible says lots of things, sometimes hyperbole for encouragement, sometimes general truth statements for those they actually hold true for, such as the audience addressed in John 3 -and we can apply those words to ourselves if we prefer. Much of that is balanced by warnings and admonishments about the possibility of falling back away. We can read all the bible or part of it as, again, we prefer. Either way the elect are the elect, and God alone knows with perfect certainty who they are. Dying in a valley isn't the problem, dying opposed to God and love, evidenced by the way we live our lives and treat others, is a problem.

Clare73 said:

Not for the human race (Romans 3:20; Galatians 3:21).
Not for the human race (Romans 3:20; Galatians 3:21).

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The post that you are responding to quotes Galatians 3:21 and speaks about how to reconcile with the other verses that I listed that make it abundantly clear that obedience to God's law is the gift of eternal life, so please address what I said in my post instead of acting like citing Galatians 3:21 contradicts the verses that I quoted.

Understanding that "doers of the law" in the New Covenant are doing love of God and neighbor which is the fulfillment of the law, "and every other commandment there may be" (Romans 13:8-10).

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Love is inclusive of everything in the Mosaic Law and everything in it is an example of what it means to love, so the way to love God and our neighbor is by obeying the Mosaic Law.

Yes, it upholds it as a means of sanctification, not as justification (imputed righteousness).

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Paul was speaking in regard to the topic of justification without saying anything about sanctification, so you have no grounds for that claim, especially when Paul said in Romans 2:13 that only doers of the Mosaic Law will be justified.

Soyeong said:

Love is inclusive of everything in the Mosaic Law and everything in it is an example of what it means to love, so the way to love God and our neighbor is by obeying the Mosaic Law.

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I agree with this in a sense but the only way to love God and neighbor is to love God and neighbor, a gift of grace that we can embrace and act upon- and grow- or not. Obedience can still come from legalism or other motivations instead, while only love fulfills the law the right way, and by its nature, even if the law is never heard. I'll quote Basil of Caesarea again here, always worth citing IMO:

"If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children."