Will unborn babies be Raptured out of the wombs of ungodly women?

RandyPNW · Aug 4, 2022

Juan777 said:
For purposes discussion I am referring to the Pretribulation Rapture as poplarised by movies such as Left Behind (2014) starring Nicolas Cage, and the other 90s movied before that one with Kirk Cameron. They tend to focus on the immediate horror and chaos right after a Rapture event. We already know if you are left behind you are a walking dead man, whether by the anarchic crowds trying to steal your food or loot the neighborhood (ie like BLM in 2020 that people were complaining about but in a larger scale, mass UFO sitings since the Holy Spirit is Raptured too???,). Most people will die before Armagaddon because the judgments end up killing billions on a scale not seen before. So I am made to believe the public anarchy will be the most immediate threat to those left behind and a total brealdown of law and order as millions of people are missing rather than a 7 year distant Armageddon (if you survive the plagues, demon locusts, trumpet and vial jidgments and managed.not to take the mark and get beheaded to make it to that time).

The battle of Armageddon is.mainly Jews fleeing the antichrist with a final showdown. But Jesus will return and cast both antichrist and false prophet alive in the lake of fire and destroy the demonized army.

Okay, Pretrib fable? I have watched most all of the Pretrib dramas for purposes of entertainment, as unrealistic as they are. Can't see millions of Christians just disappearing with the rest of the world suddenly shifting to follow the Beast. Planes falling out of skies, car accidents, families left devastated by the loss of loved ones.

But oh well. I do think they have value in drawing attention to a biblical version of the apocalyptic world. There are lots of post-apocalyptic movies now, and people are geared up to look at a world with increasingly less hope and purpose. We are indeed turning into beasts.

I do have trouble understanding what I think is the real meaning of Paul's version of the "Rapture." There isn't much about it in Scriptures. We just know that Jesus returns to his people in the same way that he left, by physically appearing here.

But the Bible says it will be across the sky like lightning, shining from east to west. So I think this indicates he will come at a time of nuclear war, when the whole world will recognize a major change on earth at a climactic moment.

As Elijah went up to heaven at the end of his ministry, so I think the Rapture will be for mature Christians who are at the end of their callings. How many that will involve I don't know. But I do think planes won't be falling out of the skies from "raptured" pilots!

Juan777 · Aug 4, 2022

What I have gathered from previous replies is that there is no cohesive agreement as to the Rapture and Pre-Tribulation in order to really get into that type of discussion. My mother, who is a Pre-Trib Rapture believer thinks children, including those still in the womb would be Raptured (ie can't imagine the panic disturbances this would cause on the mothers). If this idea is taken to its logical conclusion, it would appear the Rapture would be a vital part of the Tribulation prophecy as it spearheads the anarchy and confusion that would make the population at large more susceptible to the antichrist, especially if planes are falling from the sky, cars are crashing and there is mass pandemonium more than any other event can.

Juan777 · Aug 4, 2022

RandyPNW said:
Okay, Pretrib fable? I have watched most all of the Pretrib dramas for purposes of entertainment, as unrealistic as they are. Can't see millions of Christians just disappearing with the rest of the world suddenly shifting to follow the Beast. Planes falling out of skies, car accidents, families left devastated by the loss of loved ones.

But oh well. I do think they have value in drawing attention to a biblical version of the apocalyptic world. There are lots of post-apocalyptic movies now, and people are geared up to look at a world with increasingly less hope and purpose. We are indeed turning into beasts.

I do have trouble understanding what I think is the real meaning of Paul's version of the "Rapture." There isn't much about it in Scriptures. We just know that Jesus returns to his people in the same way that he left, by physically appearing here.

But the Bible says it will be across the sky like lightning, shining from east to west. So I think this indicates he will come at a time of nuclear war, when the whole world will recognize a major change on earth at a climactic moment.

As Elijah went up to heaven at the end of his ministry, so I think the Rapture will be for mature Christians who are at the end of their callings. How many that will involve I don't know. But I do think planes won't be falling out of the skies from "raptured" pilots!

Why would you think it is a fable? We all seem to have different views on the topic, and this is an old and established view. It's also a dangerous word to carry around to label something as a fable that you don't agree with since there are allot of things about Christianity that the unbelievers can dismiss as fables so I don't think adding the Rapture is a stretch (ie there is nothing spectacular in believing a Rapture if we also believe God created the world in 7 days, or Dinosaurs were in Noah's Ark, or virgin birth, or even Elijah and Enoch being Raptured, etc...). I take the Bible literally. If it says lightening, it literal lightening, like a secret event that nobody will know about because it happens too fast. Just like you won't notice a freak lightening out of the blue. God doesn't need help from people to fulfill His prophecies or agenda.

JulieB67 · Aug 4, 2022

Juan777 said:
There are two events referred this is referenced about the Second Coming of Jesus

I used to believe in a pretrib rapture as well because I was "taught" that. It's not biblical. Christ only returns one more time.

Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin, unto salvation."

There's nothing in between. He returns a second time for those watching for him. There's not a third.

The Thessalonians were confused about his timing and that's partly why Paul wrote the second letter to clear up their confusion. He tells them not to be confused and tells them that day shall not happen....What day is that? The event that he described with these verses,

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

We are meeting him in the air. Air in this verse does not mean sky or elevation. That's an entirely different Greek word. The air in this verse is the air we breath in.

I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

He goes on because it's still the same subject, and there were no chapters, these were letters,

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

So Paul actually names the event that the's talking about in 4:17. This isn't a pretrib rapture, this is the day of the Lord. Which is when Christ returns. He returns at the 7th trump.

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

I Thessalonians 5:4 "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."

I Thessalonians 5:5 "Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

I Thessalonians 5:6 "Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober."

How does this day not overtake us as a thief? By heeding the warnings by Christ and Paul to know the signs. The biggest is this,

II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

Christ, Paul and later John lay out everything. And warnings about deception. There is no pretrib rapture.

We have to take everything in context. And read chapter by chapter, verse by verse so we don't lose the context. We shouldn't have to spin verses around and split the Second Coming to produce such a doctrine. We need to let the scriptures speak for themselves.

If this idea is taken to its logical conclusion, it would appear the Rapture would be a vital part of the Tribulation prophecy as it spearheads the anarchy and confusion that would make the population at large more susceptible to the antichrist, especially if planes are falling from the sky, cars are crashing and there is mass pandemonium more than any other event can.

This I believe is why these types of movies do more harm than good. People will be thinking peace and safety when the true Christ returns. That's because most of the world will be buying into the fake peace that Satan and his will bring. Paul states he will be disguised as an angel of light. People will believe he's the savior. He looks like a lamb but speaks as a dragon. That's the true deception and snare that will come across the entire world. Many will fall away into this deception (taken/associate oneself with). Only those that endure to the end will be saved.

RandyPNW · Aug 4, 2022

Juan777 said:
Why would you think it is a fable? We all seem to have different views on the topic, and this is an old and established view. It's also a dangerous word to carry around to label something as a fable that you don't agree with since there are allot of things about Christianity that the unbelievers can dismiss as fables so I don't think adding the Rapture is a stretch (ie there is nothing spectacular in believing a Rapture if we also believe God created the world in 7 days, or Dinosaurs were in Noah's Ark, or virgin birth, or even Elijah and Enoch being Raptured, etc...). I take the Bible literally. If it says lightening, it literal lightening, like a secret event that nobody will know about because it happens too fast. Just like you won't notice a freak lightening out of the blue. God doesn't need help from people to fulfill His prophecies or agenda.

To Be Honest, I wasn't sure if you were Pretrib or not? Perhaps you were just challenging the position AFAIK? Anyway, I didn't mean to offend you.

I see the Pretrib Rapture theory as a "fable" because it is so unrealistic. Many miracles may appear to be "unrealistic," as well, but really are not. Those who produce miracles have a divine design in their ministries, along with that holy aura that gives credibility to their purpose.

When miracles are depicted in exaggerated ways, that's just language to poetically express it with emphasis. For example, the Red Sea waters stood up like "walls." I think the waters separated, biblically, due to a wind the Lord caused to blow upon them--they didn't stand up like walls. But poetically, the language illustrates the miracle of waters being separated miraculously, by the hand of God, to deliver His people.

I don't believe dinosaurs were in Noah's ark. Again, we read way too much into the account. When the Bible said "everything under heaven was covered with water," it sounds like a universal flood. Again, this is language that is applied in a universal sense only to a local area.

That time period did not have knowledge of the earth as a "globe," and used language depicting local territory. For example, "all the land" meant "all the land within visual distance." "All the earth" meant "all the earth within visual distance or within the particular realm being spoken of."

And so, Noah was asked to spare local animals--not insects, fish, birds, etc.--just a representative sample of animals in his local area to show God's real desire to preserve the earth--not destroy His creation! The Flood covered the area around the Black Sea--not the entire planet!

Those who take things at face value quite often do a disservice to the Scriptures by opening the stories to ridicule. The fact is, the miracles were real and did not need to be "dolled up" to look more spectacular. A floating axe is miraculous enough, and doesn't have to be a gigantic axe that levitates!

The Pretrib Rapture theory was 1st taught as a theology in about 1830 by John N. Darby--as such, it may appear to be old to us, but in reality, it is a young theory, appearing far after the Church Fathers' formed the core theology of the Church. Nobody believed in a Pretrib Rapture, or a "Coming" of the Lord that spans 7 years, before 1830.

On the other hand, Futurism and Premillennialism have reemerged in recent centuries and had advocates in the Early Church. And so, I find the burden of Dispensationalism somewhat legitimate, minus the Pretrib Rapture Theory.

What makes it appear "fable"-like is this idea of millions of Christians disappearing. When Elijah disappeared, it was far more realistic, because people went looking for him. In Enoch's case, people knew what happened because it was recorded in the Bible.

But the disappearance of millions asks more questions than it can answer. Like you said, what about the millions of Christians not quite there as true disciples of Christ? In reality, Paul is just talking about the last day of the age, when Christ comes back. That will see entire cities falling in one hour, according to the Revelation.

That indicates a nuclear war--the only time entire cities can fall in an hour that I know of! And so, Christ's coming will be both physical and personal, as well as accompanied by a battle taking place planet-wide. Maybe that's why it's called a "battle," and not a "war?" A battle is quick, whereas a war takes time.

When Christ comes back, the mature saints will greet him. Many will die in the battle, whether guilty or in innocence. Many will be Christians. But those who are still alive and Christian will be given to greet Jesus *in the clouds." This indicates a Rapture, which takes place in a second of time. And then the saints will appear with Jesus on earth to begin to impose Christian rights on earth.

I won't claim to know much more about the details of how this will happen. It will just be very quick--a rapture to heaven and back down to earth in a second! The apparent reason for going to heaven first is to recognize that transformation begins with Christ in heaven, so that it is then revealed on earth, in that order. But it is so fast that nobody will really know the difference save those who are changed, as far as I can see?

Juan777 · Aug 4, 2022

JulieB67 said:
I used to believe in a pretrib rapture as well because I was "taught" that. It's not biblical. Christ only returns one more time.

Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin, unto salvation."

There's nothing in between. He returns a second time for those watching for him. There's not a third.

That is an interesting passage. I'm not that familiar with Hebrews and Second Coming references, but the second time could be referring to the Rapture because the key feature of the Rapture is that its like a thief in the night, and only those who are looking for Him is He appearing for.

The Second Coming being referred to in other passages He is appearing unto the whole world at large. In fact, high-ranking people are hiding in rocks and caves (Rev 6:15 KJV) and they don't sound like they are looking forward to His appearing, so that would contradict Heb 9:28 which means it can't be referring to the same thing!

JulieB67 said:
The Thessalonians were confused about his timing and that's partly why Paul wrote the second letter to clear up their confusion. He tells them not to be confused and tells them that day shall not happen....What day is that? The event that he described with these verses,

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

We are meeting him in the air. Air in this verse does not mean sky or elevation. That's an entirely different Greek word. The air in this verse is the air we breath in.

Can you elaborate further into this? Otherwise I have to do the research in air independently. As you are quoting direct scriptural references that say "air", I would have no choice to take air to mean "air", as in the sky, or the third heavens which would be the atmosphere.

JulieB67 said:
I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

He goes on because it's still the same subject, and there were no chapters, these were letters,

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

So Paul actually names the event that the's talking about in 4:17. This isn't a pretrib rapture, this is the day of the Lord. Which is when Christ returns. He returns at the 7th trump.

The Rapture comes as a thief in the night. The Second Coming the tribes of the Earth will moan and Kings and important people and others will hide in the caves. Everybody knows when the Second Coming of Christ will take place, and you have a crazy leader who is guiding an army to try and fight it and actually lose terribly. This is what ends the Battle of Armageddon. There is nothing secret about that battle or how it ends.

JulieB67 said:
I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

I Thessalonians 5:4 "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."

I Thessalonians 5:5 "Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

I Thessalonians 5:6 "Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober."

How does this day not overtake us as a thief? By heeding the warnings by Christ and Paul to know the signs. The biggest is this,

II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

Christ, Paul and later John lay out everything. And warnings about deception. There is no pretrib rapture.

Except 11 Thess 2:4 is talking about a singular event. It's the exact same event referenced by Jesus in Matthew 24:15, Daniel 9:27, and Rev 13:15. I want you to please read these three chapters and verses, and then go back to 11 Thess 2:4 and explain why you think they are not all talking about the exact same moment of time, in the middle of Daniel's last week (ie divided 3.5 years).

Also, as I've said in an earlier post, I'm not sure about II Thess 2:3 as far as its saying that first there is a falling away, and then afterwards the man of sin is revealed. I believe what people are relying on theologically is a gap of time and I have to confirm if is there is a mistranslation or issue as far as when the man of sin will be revealed. Does this happen immediately after the Rapture? Does the Falling Away occur before the Rapture? How can the Anti-christ reveal himself if Christians know who he is, would not the Christians just foil his plans by telling the world that he is the Anti-christ and to run away from him like a big bad monster? Do you really imagine a world where Christians can co-exist with an Anti-Christ without a Rapture separating the two?

JulieB67 · Aug 4, 2022

Juan777 said:
Can you elaborate further into this? Otherwise I have to do the research in air independently. As you are quoting direct scriptural references that say "air", I would have no choice to take air to mean "air", as in the sky, or the third heavens which would be the atmosphere.

Yes, the word air in this verse is Greek word 109 aer in the Strong's -to breath unconsciously, i.e. respire

An example of the air you are talking about is in this verse-

Matthew 6:26 "Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?"

The word for air in that verse is Greek word 3772 ouranos (through the idea of elevation), the sky, air heaven, etc.

The Strongs will you give you the translation to every word back to the KJV utilized in every verse. We have to do this because certain words do get lost in translation and can have different meanings in different verses.

Juan777 said:
The Rapture comes as a thief in the night

He only comes like a thief in the night not watching. And it's the day of the Lord that comes like a thief in the night.

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

We can't title it a rapture when Paul specifially states that it's the day of the Lord. And then goes on to say only to those not in darkness.

And then he goes on in 2nd Thessalonians and states "that day "shall not happen....until certain events unfold.. It's the very same day. The subject hasn't changed.

The analogy of the thief in the night is that the whole world will think he's already returned. They are not watching because they believe Satan is Christ. Paul states he will be disguised as an angel of light. Who is our true angel of Light? Christ. But Satan and co will mimic that. That's the deception. That's why one needs the full gospel armour on at that time. He will be performing miracles. And even certain Christians will believe it. That's what the apostasy is about. That's why the Foolish Virgins don't make it and and so on. Many will succumb. The foolish virgins are indeed Christians, they are waiting on the bridgroom. Some will come up to Christ and he states depart from me I never knew you after claiming to have cast out demons in his name.

Juan777 said:
How can the Anti-christ reveal himself if Christians know who he is, would not the Christians just foil his plans by telling the world that he is the Anti-christ and to run away from him like a big bad monster? Do you really imagine a world where Christians can co-exist with an Anti-Christ without a Rapture separating the two?

It goes back to this verse.

II Corinthians 11:14 "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."

Transformed in the Greek is disguised. And you don't don a disguise unless people will lay eyes on you.

And Christ has set aside certain ones that will testify who he is. And even the gain sayers will not be able to resist at that time. Christ states the gospel will go out and then the end will come. Again, most of the world will be snared in delusion believing Satan is Christ. That's why Christ states he comes at an hour most do not expect. That's because most will think he's already arrived. They will be spiritually thinking peace and safety and then bam, the true Christ returns. Many will be wanting to hide at that point.

But the set aside saints will testify,

Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.."

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

Ephesians 6:13 "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God that ye may be able to with stand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand."

Paul's not teaching anyone to fly away. He's teaching to stand in that "evil" day. Having done all to stand. That's also what Christ means when he states endure to the end and in your patience, possess your souls. That's how important it is. No one is saying don't worry you'll be out of here. It's the exact opposite. Christ states if someone states Christ is here or there, believe it not. And don't be deceived by any means. Paul states the same warning in 2nd Thess, do not be deceived by any man.

yeshuasavedme · Aug 4, 2022

Douggg said:
Everyone who's father was descended from Adam inherits the sin nature, i.e. the tendency to sin. David had a human father.

Jesus's was born of a virgin, not by a human father, and thus did not inherit the sin nature.

YHVH, in the 2nd person of God the Word, put on the New Man garment prepared in the womb of a virgin for Him to wear as Redeemer/ Kinsman = brother, and in that garment of flesh which He wears He is the created brother of the Adam creation, but not of Adam male nor female DNA and His flesh has the New Man name , "Israel" -Isaiah 49 says so (which name He gave to Jacob as an oracle and which name He is jealous of).

The Adam was created as "son of God" -Luke 3:38, in the very Image of God -Genesis 1:26-28, which image is the Adam flesh body, and in which image, but without sin, God the Word came in, in that New Man body which He put on, in the womb, prepared for Him to wear as legal brother to the dead, in spirit , Adam, and with the power and authority, then, to be THE REDEEMER/KINSMAN. Romans 5:14
If one follows the Word about it tben one cannot claim His flesh was Adam, nor half Adam.
His flesh is a New creation, and nothing corrupt is in it.
Mary was a surrogate mother. Her womb was used, but not her Adam egg.

Juan777 · Aug 4, 2022

JulieB67 said:
Yes, the word air in this verse is Greek word 109 in the Strong's -to breath unconsciously, i.e. respire

I've just checked on my end and it says "an atmospheric region" as one of it's definitions. It does not preclude the sky or third-heavens as that is also an atmospheric region.

JulieB67 said:
He only comes like a thief in the night not watching. And it's the day of the Lord that comes like a thief in the night.

If the Anti-Christ has gathered armies around the world to actually resist the Second Coming of Jesus, can you explain how He is returning as a thief in the night if the whole purpose of the war is a futile attempt from the devil to turn people against God and actually send the military against Him?
Why else do you think there is an Armageddon war? Is not the same idea with the later war during the Millennial Kingdom when the devil is loosed again and tries to bring another war against Jesus?

JulieB67 said:
I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

We can't title it a rapture when Paul specifially states that it's the day of the Lord. And then goes on to say only to those not in darkness.

And then he goes on in 2nd Thessalonians and states "that day "shall not happen....until certain events unfold.. It's the very same day. The subject hasn't changed.

Jesus says no man knows the day or hour when He will return (ie Rapture) but the Father only.
(Matt 24:36). The fact of knowing that certain events will unfold first undermines that idea since now you will now the day or hour He will return. In fact, it would be the worst kept secret. Which means its describing two different things.

JulieB67 said:
The analogy of the thief in the night is that the whole world will think he's already returned. That's because they will believe Satan is Christ. Paul states he will be disguised as an angel of light. Who is our true angel of Light? Christ. But Satan and co will mimic that. That's the deception. That's why one needs the full gospel armour on at that time. He will be performing miracles. And even certain Christians will believe it. That's what the apostasy is about. That's why the Foolish Virgins don't make it and and so on. Many will succumb. The foolish virgins are indeed Christians, they are waiting on the bridgroom. Some will come up to Christ and he states depart from me I never knew you after claiming to have cast out demons in his name.

I provided a few verse references describing the Abomination of Desolation on the Third Rebuilt Temple in my previous post and see that you have ignored them on this reply. What do you think Jesus is talking about when He talks about the Abomination of Desolation spoken by Daniel the Prophet?

Your description is not fixing any event, place, or time and is hard to picture what you are trying to say.
On the other hand I'm offering an event, place and time and backing it by scripture to explain exactly what is going on which is why those verses are important?

That a physical demonically animated (whether by AI or whatever) anti-christ idol, that is sitting in a rebuilt third Temple in Israel, the false prophet makes some decree that everyone is supposed to worship that image and receive a mark on their right hand and forehead, THE IDOL STANDS IN THE HOLIEST OF HOLY PLACE IN THIS TEMPLE and JESUS SAYS GET OUT OF THERE WHEN THAT HAPPENS!!! (Matt 24:15)(Daniel 9:27)(Rev 13:15)(2 Thess 2:4)(Rev 12:6), and you know it's 3.5 years after this same person makes a peace treaty deal with Israel possibly leading to the clearance for re-building this Third Temple (which is why the Jews accept him), and having that much detail about it, that anyone can really by fooled by this who has an even basic understanding of that? I think the level of detail does not fit your narrative because it becomes less likely that anything is happening like a surprise. It's Daniel's last week of the 70 weeks and it's a fixed 7 year time-line that's reference throughout the book of Revelation. If you merely have knowledge of this jigsaw this automatically really puts you into the 10 wise virgins? I don't think possessing prophetic theological knowledge so you can say "aha" is what cuts it for being a wise virgin in Jesus' parables. What it's likely saying is that the wise virgins are loyal to Jesus and full of the Spirit and are ready when the Rapture happens, while the foolish ones stay during this 7 year period, or Daniel's last week and missed the Rapture. But they will know full well who the anti-christ is, while the rest of the world would be in the dark. They will prove their loyalty to Jesus by refusing the mark and by allowing themselves to be beheaded if they fooled around before the Rapture.

Blade · Aug 4, 2022

No offense seems a silly question for me. Seems no would be the answer.

JulieB67 · Aug 4, 2022

Juan777 said:
I've just checked on my end and it says "an atmospheric region" as one of it's definitions. It does not preclude the sky or third-heavens as that is also an atmospheric region.

Believe what you will. I showed you the word from the Greek manuscripts and provided the definition. It's the air we breath in as in respiration. And I showed you the word for air that means elevation, sky, etc.

Juan777 said:
Jesus says no man knows the day or hour when He will return (ie Rapture) but the Father only.

No one knows the day or the hour but one is to know the signs and seasons so that day does not take them as a thief. It only comes as a thief to those not watching. Christ states if they had known when the thief would have came they would have watched. So again, we are to watch for the signs and seasons that Christ, Paul and later John by way of Christ lay out.

Juan777 said:
(Matt 24:36). The fact of knowing that certain events will unfold first undermines that idea since now you will now the day or hour

Not, it does not. It makes you a good watchman. Why do you think Christ and Paul lay out the signs and seasons??

Matthew 24:33 "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the door'.

We will not know the day or hour but when these signs play out we can know it's very near, even at the door.

Matthew 24:43 "But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up."

We are to watch for the signs and seasons that Christ just laid out.

Also Paul gives us the very most important sign to watch for before the gathering back to Christ,

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

The subject is the gathering back to Christ, the day of the Lord. There's not talk of a secret rapture here. He doesn't say don't worry you'll be gone before these events unfold. Instead, it's a strict warning much like Christ gave out in the gospels, to not be deceived. You are seeing a secret rapture where there is none. There's only one more time when Christ ushers in the day of the Lord. That's it. Anything else is not biblical. If it was there I would believe it. I said before I once believe in a pretrib rapture because that's what I was taught in church going up. A church that would quote a few scriptures followed by a personal written sermon every Sunday that has nothing to do with the real meat of God's word. Many churches will lead you astray if you're not careful.

Juan777 said:
I provided a few verse references describing the Abomination of Desolation on the Third Rebuilt Temple in my previous post and see that you have ignored them on this reply. What do you think Jesus is talking about when He talks about the Abomination of Desolation spoken by Daniel the Prophet?

This-

Isaiah 14:12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

Isaiah 14:13 "For thou hast said in thine heart, `I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:"

That is the temple. It was prophesized long ago he would sit there.

Isaiah 14:14 "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the MOST HIGH."
These verses totally mirror Paul's teaching,

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

We have to remember this verse as well,

Ephesians 6:12 "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

It seems apparent that we will remain on different paths so I'll let you get back to your original topic...

ewq1938 · Aug 4, 2022

Douggg said:
What ends the Great Tribulation?

Tribulation is persecution of the saved. When they become immortal, they can no longer be persecuted because they are immune from harm. They cannot even be arrested and locked in a prison let alone tortured or killed. This change to the mortal body happens at the 7th trump. Satan and the beast and the army do try to persecute them after they are immortal but are unsuccessful first at Armageddon and later satan tries again with a new army after the Millennium but also fails. War and physical harm against Jesus and his immortal saints is just impossible.

ewq1938 · Aug 4, 2022

Juan777 said:
That crime happens on the midpoint of the Tribilation and the Great Tribilation (last 3.5 years) are the vial judgments.

No, the Great Tribulation is the time satan persecutes the church through the beast. The vials are after that has ended when God punishes those that are part of the beast's kingdom.

yeshuasavedme · Aug 4, 2022

RandyPNW said:
"The Pretrib Rapture theory was 1st taught as a theology in about 1830 by John N. Darby--as such, it may appear to be old to us, but in reality, it is a young theory, appearing far after the Church Fathers' formed the core theology of the Church. Nobody believed in a Pretrib Rapture, or a "Coming" of the Lord that spans 7 years, before 1830."

No, not true. That is a fable, a myth, invented by modern men.
Enoch the prophet the 7th from Adam wrote about the rapture in chapter 50 of his book and he wrote about the tribulation which would come upon the whole world after the rapture..
Enoch shows it as a very public change to glory bodies of the righteous, seen by all.
Read it here:
Read chapter 50.
Messianic Prophecy and the Book of Enoch
Then, the rapture is fully taught in the living oracles, committed to the namesake people of the New Man Name, and you can learn about it there, and in the psalms, esp.

RandyPNW · Aug 4, 2022

yeshuasavedme said:
RandyPNW said:
"The Pretrib Rapture theory was 1st taught as a theology in about 1830 by John N. Darby--as such, it may appear to be old to us, but in reality, it is a young theory, appearing far after the Church Fathers' formed the core theology of the Church. Nobody believed in a Pretrib Rapture, or a "Coming" of the Lord that spans 7 years, before 1830."

No, not true. That is a fable, a myth, invented by modern men.
Enoch the prophet the 7th from Adam wrote about the rapture in chapter 50 of his book and he wrote about the tribulation which would come upon the whole world after the rapture..
Enoch shows it as a very public change to glory bodies of the righteous, seen by all.
Read it here:
Read chapter 50.
Messianic Prophecy and the Book of Enoch
Then, the rapture is fully taught in the living oracles, committed to the namesake people of the New Man Name, and you can learn about it there, and in the psalms, esp.

There is zero Pretrib theology here. Furthermore, the Book of Enoch is not Scripture. You can read anything you like into this, but the fact is, no Pretrib Theology exists before John Darby. There may be a few outlying beliefs similar to it, but as a developed theology it doesn't exist--certainly not as acknowledge by any substantial portion of the Church. It was always believed that Antichrist preceded the coming of Christ to destroy him. Please show me otherwise, rather than pointing me to nebulas readings that have no theological description.

ewq1938 · Aug 4, 2022

RandyPNW said:
There is zero Pretrib theology here. Furthermore, the Book of Enoch is not Scripture. You can read anything you like into this, but the fact is, no Pretrib Theology exists before John Darby.

The History of the Pre-trib Rapture

"At the time of the Protestant Reformation a major shift in how one interpreted the Bible caused the church to adjust in her views on the end times. Predominately under the Roman Catholic Church the Bible was interpreted allegorically. Scripture dealing with end times, prophetic texts, for the most part suffered from the hands of those who would not take the text literally. However, as the Reformation grew and as people began to return to a literal interpretation of the Bible the more people shifted to see that Christ was going to come back to earth to rule and reign. Many of the Puritans and Pilgrims, the 2nd generation of the Reformation movement, adopted the idea that not only was Christ going to reign on the earth but he would also translate his church saints before the awful time of his outpouring of wrath. Several of these scholars in some form or another held to a pre-tribulational rapture position.

1. Joseph Mede (1627): Clavis Apocalyptica

Some believe that he in this work made a distinction between the rapture of the saints in contrast to the second of Christ to earth.

2. Increase Mather (1639-1723)

Increase Mather was a pastor, scholar, and was the first President of Harvard College. Paul Boyer has noted that this Puritan scholar proved "that the saints would be caught up into the air beforehand, thereby escaping the final conflagration." This teaching from Mather was an early formulation of the rapture doctrine it seems.

3. Peter Jurieu (1687)

Peter Jurie in his book "Approaching Deliverance of the Church " (1687) taught that Christ would come in the air to rapture the saints and return to heaven before the battle of Armageddon. He spoke of a secret Rapture prior to His coming in glory and judgment at Armageddon.

4. John Gill (1748)

Dr. John Gill was one of the most brilliant scholars of his day. This Calvinist Baptist theologian wrote a full commentary set on the Bible in 1748. In this commentary he made a statement in his notes on 1 Thessalonians 4 that supported a time difference between the rapture of the saints and the coming of Christ to earth. He said:

....here Christ will stop and will be visible to all, and as easily discerned by all, good and bad, as the body of the sun at noon-day; as yet He will not descend on earth, because it is not fit to receive Him; but when that and its works are burnt up, and it is purged and purified by fire, and become a new earth, He'll descend upon it, and dwell with his saints in it: and this suggests another reason why He'll stay in the air, and His saints shall meet Him there, and whom He'll take up with Him into the third heaven, till the general conflagration and burning of the world is over, and to preserve them from it....

5. Morgan Edwards (1742-1744) the Founder of Brown University

Edwards was a prominent Baptist Leader in his day. When he came to America he was recommended to a pastoral role by the famous John Gill. He founded the first Baptist College in the colonies. This college later became known as Brown University, a well known Ivy League University of our times. Edwards taught that Christ would return for his church saints 3.5 years before he returned to establish the Kingdom of Christ on earth, the 1000 year reign of Christ. He specifically said:

"The distance between the first and second resurrection will be somewhat more than a thousand years. I say, somewhat more--, because the dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ's 'appearing in the air' (1 Thess. 4:17); and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium, as we shall see hereafter: but will he and they abide in the air all that time? No: they will ascend to paradise, or to some one of those many 'mansions in the Father's house' (John 14:2).""

Douggg · Aug 4, 2022

ewq1938 said:
Tribulation is persecution of the saved. When they become immortal, they can no longer be persecuted because they are immune from harm. They cannot even be arrested and locked in a prison let alone tortured or killed. This change to the mortal body happens at the 7th trump.

If I understand your view correctly, you believe that the Great Tribulation is ended by the rapture event taking place?

How does your view coincide with Matthew 24, which indicates it is Jesus's return which ends the Great Tribulation?

Which would mean that the seven vials of God's wrath take place during the Great Tribulation, not after it.

Juan777 · Aug 4, 2022

JulieB67 said:
B
No one knows the day or the hour but one is to know the signs and seasons so that day does not take them as a thief. It only comes as a thief to those not watching. Christ states if they had known when the thief would have came they would have watched. So again, we are to watch for the signs and seasons that Christ, Paul and later John by way of Christ lay out.

Not, it does not. It makes you a good watchman. Why do you think Christ and Paul lay out the signs and seasons??

I think that is mixing apples and oranges. There signs of a rapture are more likely birth pangs where you are seeing an intensity of signs Jesus specifically talked about in Matthew 24. This is different than a specific chronology of events that I've outlined as Daniel's 70th week. Since you are avoiding the issue of Daniel's 70th week, and how the book of Revelations seems to be having a specific time (ie 3.5 years which represents half of a week), I can't see this discussion as going anywhere (as you keep ignoring my own posts and don't have an open attitude to at least look at the verses I'm quoting from).

JulieB67 said:
Matthew 24:33 "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the door'.

We will not know the day or hour but when these signs play out we can know it's very near, even at the door.

Matthew 24:43 "But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up."

We are to watch for the signs and seasons that Christ just laid out.

But that doesn't disprove there is a Rapture before the Second Coming. In your mind you think you are proving something when I'm seeing two different events. If you want to ignore my points about Jesus returning as finishing the Battle of Armageddon, an account that's found in Revelation 19, and Zachariah 14, and lets throw in Acts 1:11, as being obvious and NOT a thief in the night, then there is nothing I can really say since you are also ignoring scripture. I did not actually ignore any scripture you quoted to me, I challenged the interpretation but I don't ignore so at this point it's not a fair discussion.

I've left enough chapters and verses around so I don't think it's fair for your to say that the Rapture of the church is unbiblical or unscriptural. It's fair to say that we disagree on the matter, and it looks like allot of Christians on here disagree with it too in this particular board, but it doesn't mean it's unscriptural where you cherry-pick what verses you want to fit into your particular view and ignore others that explain mine and you can't adequately respond to it.

JulieB67 said:
Also Paul gives us the very most important sign to watch for before the gathering back to Christ,

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Cool. So Christians do not have to worry about missing the Rapture because the Anti-Christ with a big 666 sign will show up and then we all have a sobering moment. The flesh would love to believe that lie. A secret Rapture would have Christians too much on their toes because Jesus can come at any moment and you can miss it. What you are describing is a joke in comparison. Now someone just had to worry when an Anti-christ actually shows up, then maybe they will take their walk with the Lord more seriously. I can see how not believing in a Rapture suits people who are living in sin and know they just have to worry about the big bad Anti-Christ before they smarten up.

1 John 3:2-3 describes anticipating a sudden and imminent return of Jesus as a hope that purifies. In your narrative, one is not looking for a sudden return of Jesus, but for the Anti-christ to show up before deciding to sober up with their walk with Jesus! It looks like its the opposite message.

But I digress, the Rapture is really more fear-based, and you've put a fear of missing the Rapture on the same level as the natural fear of death. I just don't see how denying the Rapture that's helpful to encourage Christians to be more sober any more than denying the existence of Hell.

JulieB67 said:
The subject is the gathering back to Christ, the day of the Lord. There's not talk of a secret rapture here. He doesn't say don't worry you'll be gone before these events unfold. Instead, it's a strict warning much like Christ gave out in the gospels, to not be deceived. You are seeing a secret rapture where there is none. There's only one more time when Christ ushers in the day of the Lord. That's it. Anything else is not biblical. If it was there I would believe it. I said before I once believe in a pretrib rapture because that's what I was taught in church going up. A church that would quote a few scriptures followed by a personal written sermon every Sunday that has nothing to do with the real meat of God's word. Many churches will lead you astray if you're not careful.

Your passage reference said "that day", but did not say "Day of the Lord"? How is believing in a Rapture leading anyone astray? By the way the passage was intended to say that people who died at that time Paul wrote that would have missed the Rapture since they weren't alive to be translated. Paul was saying not to worry about that since the dead in Christ will rise first, and then secondly those who remain and are alive will be coming up afterwards. The warning not to be deceived was a local message intended for that church and what they were going through at the time and focusing on the idea that the ones who died had missed Jesus literally returning back AT THAT TIME. You fail to understand that people in that time believed Jesus was going to be returning back then and Paul was addressing that and it's not something like that here. (ie Jesus was still fresh in everyone's minds back then and they expected Him to return).

While we are going at this, why would you leave a doctrine that would help keep you accountable for living right before God? I fail to understand the point as to what is sinister about that in terms of leading people astray? Do you believe in hell? How is fear of missing the Rapture different than the fear of someone dying and going to hell without Christ? To me, the threat of missing the Rapture is like a soft-death and I don't see how that is a problem when it comes to encouraging Christians to live right before God?

JulieB67 said:
This-

Isaiah 14:12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

Isaiah 14:13 "For thou hast said in thine heart, `I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:"

That is the temple. It was prophesized long ago he would sit there.

Isaiah 14:14 "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the MOST HIGH."
These verses totally mirror Paul's teaching,

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

We have to remember this verse as well,

Ephesians 6:12 "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

It seems apparent that we will remain on different paths so I'll let you get back to your original topic...

Yes, and that happened in the distant past. It seems like you are afraid of looking at that 70th week prophecy in Daniel 9.

RandyPNW · Aug 4, 2022

ewq1938 said:
The History of the Pre-trib Rapture

Pretribbers make this kind of argument regularly and with little merit. Postribbers often consider Pre-Wrath and even Mid-Trib as "cousin" views along with Postrib because they all believe that Christ appears *after* the revelation of Antichrist.

Belief that Christ comes in judgment not to destroy the Church but to destroy the enemies of the Church is believed in by all of these groups. Differentiating the Coming of Christ from the appearance of his Kingdom in order to differentiate his Coming in judgment from his Coming to save is something we would all agree on, and bears little value in proving where Pretrib Theology was initially formulated.

Please quote any of the supposed early Pretrib authors on the matter of Christ coming *before* the appearance of Antichrist, as opposed to simply showing that they differentiate between Christ coming to save and his coming to judge. We all know there is a differentiation between these two, and if the timing is of minor significance it does not prove an early Pretrib Theology.

Even if there were a few teachers who believed that Christ is to come *before* the appearance of Antichrist, where is the theology embraced by any significant portion of the Church? If not, then I rest my case.

Juan777 · Aug 4, 2022

It doesn't sound like there is a consensus of Christians who believe in the pre-trib Rapture, and I didn't factor this when making this thread. If people already think it's absurd then the specific example I've raised within the this thread is going to come with an answer of "well, I don't believe the Rapture is scriptural". It's almost like an unbeliever saying, the Bible is written by men, when you raise a point in the Bible that does not make sense to them but you have a strong conviction / revelation about.

Will unborn babies be Raptured out of the wombs of ungodly women?

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