Saturday or Sunday Church?

Status
Not open for further replies.

John Mullally

Well-Known Member
Aug 5, 2020
2,376
820
Califormia
✟133,457.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
There are 1,050 command in the NT, so it really makes sense to you to interpret Acts 15:19-21 as excluding over 99% of what is commanded in the NT, including most of what was taught by Jesus, including the Ten Commandments and the greatest two commandments, and that Gentiles shouldn't follow Jesus outside a handful of commands?
For the 100th time, the context of the Jerusalem decree (Acts 15:23-29) is listing the portions of the Mosaic laws the Gentile believers need to observe. Its not about the NT commands - the ones Jesus gave to his disciples or that are written in Acts and Epistles.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Leaf473
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,433
4,605
Hudson
✟283,922.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
In private conversations with His disciples, Jesus gave them instructions and commandments without referencing the mosaic law (which includes the 10 commandments). I believe that that was in preparation for their future ministry under the New Covenant. Think new wineskins.

Again, the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law (Jeremiah 31:33), which includes the Ten Commandments. Jesus set a sinless example for his disciples to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the way that he walked (1 John 2:6). Furthermore, Jesus did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced, so you have unjustifiably assigned a different motivation to Jesus in disagreement with what the Father has commanded.

The old covenant with all its ceremonial laws (i.e. following the Mosaic laws in the Torah) is what Jesus refers to as the "old wineskins". The apostles in Acts 15:23-29 wrote that the Gentile believers who received the Holy Spirit upon acting on the simple gospel message did not also have to effectively become Jews by following a myriad of Mosaic law ceremonial ordinances.

Jesus did not start talking about the New Covenant and did not establish it until the end of his ministry, so everything that he taught prior to that point was in regard to how to correctly live under the Mosaic Covenant, and he certainly wasn't speaking about it at the very beginning of his ministry, so his parable of the wineskins had nothing to do with following the New Covenant. In Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Mosaic Law. In Matthew 4:17-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is the way to act on the simple Gospel message.

From 1 Corinthians 16:2 which was written around 54 AD and several years after Acts 15, Gentile believers were congregating on Sunday. If it was important, Paul would have taken the opportunity to write that they should congregate on the Sabbath.

1 Corinthians 16:2 On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with your income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.​

Jews traditionally don't handle money on the Sabbath, so collecting an offering would need to wait until Saturday evening after the Sabbath was over, so that is evidence that they were continuing the keep the Sabbath, whereas if they had been collecting an offering on the 7th day, then that would be evidence that they had ceased to keep it holy.
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,433
4,605
Hudson
✟283,922.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
For the 100th time, the context of the Jerusalem decree (Acts 15:23-29) is listing the portions of the Mosaic laws the Gentile believers need to observe. Its not about the NT commands - the ones Jesus gave to his disciples or that are written in Acts and Epistles.

The goal was not to limit which laws Gentiles should follow, but to not make things too difficult for new believers, which they excused by saying they would continue to hear Moses being taught every Sabbath in the synagogues. Even today when someone is converting to Judaism, they don't make things too difficult for them by requiring them to obey everything in the Torah on day one. People continue to go to churches every week to learn more about how to obey the Bible. The NT commands are all based on and in accordance with the Mosaic Law, so there are no grounds for picking some while rejecting others.
 
Upvote 0

John Mullally

Well-Known Member
Aug 5, 2020
2,376
820
Califormia
✟133,457.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
The goal was not to limit which laws Gentiles should follow, but to not make things too difficult for new believers, which they excused by saying they would continue to hear Moses being taught every Sabbath in the synagogues. Even today when someone is converting to Judaism, they don't make things too difficult for them by requiring them to obey everything in the Torah on day one. People continue to go to churches every week to learn more about how to obey the Bible. The NT commands are all based on and in accordance with the Mosaic Law, so there are no grounds for picking some while rejecting others.
Wrong. The letter stands on its own. There is nothing in the letter about the Sabbath. The "hear Moses being taught every Sabbath in the synagogues" was James talking about his Jerusalem congregation and it is not included in the letter (Acts 15:23-29) and is thus immaterial.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Leaf473
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,433
4,605
Hudson
✟283,922.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
There have always been Torah observant believers? Where were they in, say, 800, or 1200? Honest question. Jesus said his followers would be like a city set on a hill.
That amounts to a claim that the true Christianity that Jesus intended, was a 7-15 year flash in the pan that fizzled out.

If you interpret Acts 15 as ruling that Gentiles don't have to become Jews obey the Torah in order to become followers of Christ in spite of him spending his ministry teaching his followers how to follow it by example, then the point raised in Acts 15:1 would never have become an issue because there would be no point in trying to get Gentiles to obey the Torah if Jews were supposed to stop obeying it when they became a follower of Jesus. So there has historically been a form of Christianity that is compatible with Torah observance, there has historically been some Jews who have publicly or privately converted to Christianity who continued to be Torah observant in accordance with the example that Christ set for them to follow, though historically the roles became reversed where there where was pressure put some that they needed to cease being Jews and obeying the Torah in order to become followers of Christ.

From this article: God Always Left a Remnant of Jewish Believers - ONE FOR ISRAEL Ministry

"Hegesippus was a Jewish Nazarene believer in the second century, and an early church historian. Although other early church leaders like Ignatius wrote against maintaining Jewish practice, Ignatius’ letters to the Philadelphian and Magnesian congregations shows that there were many Jewish people among them, some of whom had abandoned Jewish practices and others who had not.

Similarly, John Chrysostom’s anti-semitic writings indicate that there were Jewish believers in Yeshua still maintaining Jewish identity and the traditions of their ancestors well into the fourth century CE, much to his frustration. Epiphanius (303-403 CE), was the bishop of Constantia in Cyprus in his time, and though he was Jewish, he trained in monastic circles. By this time, the pressure on Jewish people who believed in Yeshua to identify only as “Christians” and to renounce their Jewish identity was extreme.

Saint Patrick (late 300s to 461 CE) is thought to have been a Messianic Jew, from a family who kept Jewish customs and lifestyle, like ritual purity traditions, celebrating Passover instead of Easter, and observing Shabbat. Attempts to edit his Jewish heritage out of the picture during a time of deep antisemitism in the church didn’t manage to cover the tracks completely.

The scant evidence of Jewish believers after the fourth century is due to the fact that the Jewish Messianic believers hid their Jewish identity, rather than ceased to exist. However, from the Middle Ages onwards, we see more and more evidence of Jewish people following Yeshua as their Messiah, especially in the last three centuries."

"Theodore John of Prague was a student and then teacher of Talmud and Rabbinic writings in Treves, Germany, but in 1692 declared his faith in Yeshua as Messiah, declaring “I found the said Christian faith to be in all its articles firmly grounded upon the Word of God, and agreeing with the faith of the former true Israel, in the time of the Patriarchs, as well as that of Moses and all the Prophets; which I praise God for, and heartily rejoice in.”[3]"

"Bob Dylan was born in 1941, originally named Robert Allen Zimmerman (Hebrew name Shabtai Zisl ben Avraham), and came to believe in Jesus in the 1970s. In 2011 he played in Tel Aviv and opened his set with the song, “Gonna Change My Way of Thinking” from his first openly Messianic album, with the lyrics, “Jesus is coming. He’s coming on back to gather his jewels”."

From: A BRIEF LIST OF MOST FAMOUS MESSIANIC JEWS

"RABINOWITZ, Joseph ben David(1837-1899), Russian Orthodox (Chasidic) Rabbi of Kishinev in Bessarabia, Hebrew scholar and writer. After the pogroms of 1881, he sought a Jewish homeland to solve the Jewish dilemma. He arrived in Jerusalem in 1882, representing Russian Jews, and while standing on the Mount of Olives, overlooking Jerusalem, he realized that "Jesus, our brother" was the only solution. On returning to Kishinev in 1885, he established the first modern messianic congregation called "the First Assembly of the Israelites of the New Covenant." Talmudic scholar and lawyer Joseph Rabinowitz is baptized in 1885 and, through writings and sermons, begins influencing Russian Jews to become "Sons of the New Covenant." He draws up a list of 12 articles of faith, patterned after Maimonides's 13 principles, but proclaiming Jesus as the Messiah. He writes parables such as this one: "Two foolish people were traveling in a four-wheeled wagon. Noticing that the wagon was moving heavily, they examined it and found that a wheel was missing. One of the foolish people sprang out and ran forward along the road, saying to every one he met, 'We have lost a wheel. Have you seen one?' At last a wise man said to him, 'You are looking in the wrong direction. You should seek your wheel behind the wagon, not in front of it.' This is the mistake that Jews have been making all of these centuries. The four wheels of Hebrew history are Abraham, Moses, David, and Jesus. Jews have been looking into the future when they should have been looking into the past." He kept ties with many Christian denominations, but kept his congregation insulated from denominational controversies and maintained the Jewish feasts and order of service (Aron Kodesh, Shabbat, Hebrew siddur, brit milah, mikveh-baptism, prayers and preaching in Hebrew, Yiddish and Russian). However the Brit Hadashah became part of the Scriptures and verses concerning Yeshua adorned the walls, such as, near the Torah, "Messiah is the end of the law." He also maintained that all Jewish believers retained their Jewish identity although there is no difference between Jews and gentile believers. Most of his flock were victims of war and the Holocaust."

"LEVERTOFF , Paul Phillip (1878-1954): late 19th and early 20th century pioneering Hebrew-Christian scholar and leader. Born in Orsha, Belarus, as Feivel Levertoff, of a Sephardic background whose religious persuasion was Hassidic. Attended the Volozhin Yeshiva, a Lithuanian Jewish prominent Rabbinic seminary. He was baptized in 11 August 1895 in Königsberg, where he was pursuing University studies. Seeking employment as a missionary on 11 December 1896, he applied for a position with the London Jews Society (L JS). He was accepted and soon worked full time in his new vocation. In 1901, having joined the staff of the Hebrew Christian Testimony to Israel (HCTI), founded by David Baron and Charles Andrew Schönberger in 1893, he served as their principal translator and writer. He published numerous articles in the Scattered Nation between 1901-1909 and traveled throughout the Mediterranean as one the most active missionaries. [ Read more] Levertoff’s book on Jesus in Hebrew, Ben ha-Adam, (“The Son of Man”) predated Joseph Klausner’s own book on Jesus, Yeshu ha-Notsri, by over 17 years, which itself is generally considered the first book written on Jesus and Christianity’s early beginnings by a Jewish scholar in Modern Hebrew. It has been reprinted in Israel Jerusalem: Dolphin (1968). He also authored Viduyei Augustinus ha-Kadosh (“The Confessions of St. Augustine”), the first translation into Hebrew of a major work by a Latin Church Father. In 1910, he was appointed as Evangelist in Constantinople by the United Free Church of Scotland Jewish Committee, met his Welsh future wife there, and returned to England where they got married. He was appointed to the position of teacher of Hebrew and Rabbinics with the Institutum Judaicum Delitzschianum (IJD), a postgraduate institute for Jewish missions founded by Franz Delitzsch in Leipzig, Germany. He relocated from Warsaw to Leipzig on 1 April 1912, to take over the teaching position at the IJD, which had been left vacant by the death of Jechiel Zebi Herschensohn-Lichtenstein. A year later, Levertoff and a colleague posthumously published Lichtenstein’s revised Matthew commentary in Hebrew. The IJD’s class schedules from 1912 to 1917 (published in its journal Saat auf Hoffnung) have Levertoff teaching a variety of courses. He was commissioned by the University [of Leipzig] to write three books:. The edition and German translation, with commentary, of the Pesikta Rabbati, a collection of ancient Synagogue homilies never before translated into any language, a German translation of the whole of the Palestinian Talmud [Talmud Yerushalmi], with commentary, “Die religiöse Denkweise der Chassidim” – the first systematic treatise on intellectual Jewish mysticism. The first and third of these works were produced, though, for lack of funds, only the third was published. The Talmud… never reached the public…[because of] the advent of a new “race-cultured” system in Germany… render[ed] its publication impossible. Levertoff eventually made an English adaptation of this third work that he later published as Love and the Messianic Age. It was his attempt in exploring similarities between Hassidic and New Testament theology. Impoverisshed by WWI, Levertoff and his family returned to his wife’s native Wales, where, between 1919 through 1922, he held the position of librarian at St. Deiniol’s Library, Hawarden (Flintshire County). During this time, he was also ordained by the Archbishop of Wales into the Church of England. In 1923, he became Director of the East London Fund for the Jews and took over Holy Trinity, a church in Shoreditch while making his residence in Ilford. While in this position, he published the quarterly The Church and the Jews. He followed in the tradition of Joseph Rabinowitz and Hayyim Yedidyah Pollak, to establish an independent community and congregation of Jewish believers. Levertoff appealed to “… those Jews who are not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ and of their Jewish origin … to unite as a community … and institute Jewish Christian services of worship which would present our Faith in terms of the rich background of devotional and mystical Jewish traditions.” To that end in 1925, Levertoff published his Hebrew liturgy Meal of the Holy King. Levertoff read from a Torah scroll with tallit and kippah as part of the Hebrew services at Holy Trinity. Levertoff himself mentions his involvement with the IHCA’s Hebrew Christian Church Commission in 1932 in his publication, The Church and the Jews. In the same space, he presents his own draft for the “The Ten Principles of the Faith of the Hebrew Christian Church” much of which was later incorporated into the final version as “The Proposed Articles of Faith for the Hebrew Christian Church.” In 1933, along with Harry Sperling and Maurice Simon, he helped translate the Zohar into English for the first time for Soncino Press. During his tenure as the priest at Holy Trinity, in addition to leading a small community of Jewish believers, Levertoff assisted everyone from Hans Herzl , also a believer and son of Theodore Herzl, to provide succor to refugees from Austria and Nazi Germany. One intriguing work by Levertoff that unfortunately seems lost is Christ and the Shekinah, which Lev Gillet, a friend of Levertoff, first mentioned in 1939. Levertoff considered it his magnum opus. Gillet explains “…[Levertoff] understood the importance of an intellectual appeal and the necessity of expressing the theological concepts of Christianity in Jewish terms (according to him, along the lines of the Shekinah teaching and of Hasidic mysticism).” Levertoff lived in the twilight of the Haskalah and died 31 July 1954, at the dawn of the modern Jewish state. He is today perhaps more relevant to us than he was 75 years ago when he seemed nothing more than a fringe theological curiosity. (Source:adapted from From Mishkan #37, Fall 2002. © J. Quiñónez)
---------------

Pointing out what Christianity was like during the first 7-15 years does not mean that it immediately fizzled out after that. Again, there were a number of Jewish Christian sects like Ebionites and Nazarenes were followers of Jesus who continued to live in obedience to the Torah, and Nazarenes were still referred to in the 11th century:

"As late as the eleventh century, Cardinal Humbert of Mourmoutiers still referred to the Nazarene sect as a Sabbath-keeping Christian body existing at that time.[24] Modern scholars believe it is the Pasagini or Pasagians who are referenced by Cardinal Humbert, suggesting the Nazarene sect existed well into the eleventh century and beyond (the Catholic writings of Bonacursus entitled Against the Heretics). It is believed that Gregorius of Bergamo, about 1250 CE, also wrote concerning the Nazarenes as the Pasagians."

Again, if someone starts to following the teaching of a Jewish sect in the 1st century, then they are returning to something ancient, not inventing something new, and whether or not the teachings of that sect should be considered to be correct should be evaluated on their own merits.

There does need to be unity and established orthodoxy or else people are running around with their own mixed bag of theology. You have to agree with and adhere to the Nicene Creed for example to post in this section. I myself don't follow any specific denomination or have a single earthly teacher from some specific denomination. I listen to Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Lutherans and Baptists etc, when what I'm listening to is within the bounds of orthodox Christianity. Likewise I get likes and agrees from RCs, EOs, Lutherans and Baptists etc, because of the orthodoxy that unites us.

Lutherans and Baptists are denominations that didn't start until the 1500's or 1600's, so it seems inconsistent to reject what a denomination teaches simply based on when it started. Much of what the Torah teaches is repeated in the NT, so there is nothing preventing me from having fellowship with Christians who believe that we should follow what is taught in the NT. We can all be unified in agreement on things like the Trinity, that we should follow Jesus, that we should believe in him, and that we are justified by grace through faith, though we can have different perspectives on what that means. There is much value that can be learned form people from other denominations and I can strongly disagree with someone about many issues while still learning much of value from them.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Leaf473
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,433
4,605
Hudson
✟283,922.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Wrong. The letter stands on its own. There is nothing in the letter about the Sabbath. The "hear Moses being taught every Sabbath in the synagogues" was James talking about his Jerusalem congregation and it is not included in the letter (Acts 15:23-29) and is thus immaterial.

While it is true that the letter in Acts 15:23-29 did not command to keep the Sabbath, the justification for sending the letter with those four commands was that he expected that its recipients would be hearing Moses taught every Sabbath in the synagogues. It would make no sense to make the point in Acts 15:21 if it was not speaking about the recipients of the letter.
 
Upvote 0

John Mullally

Well-Known Member
Aug 5, 2020
2,376
820
Califormia
✟133,457.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
While it is true that the letter in Acts 15:23-29 did not command to keep the Sabbath, the justification for sending the letter with those four commands was that he expected that its recipients would be hearing Moses taught every Sabbath in the synagogues. It would make no sense to make the point in Acts 15:21 if it was not speaking about the recipients of the letter.
Just because James's Jewish Jerusalem congregation heard Moses being preached every Sabbath does not mean that Gentile believers and synagogues scattered in low density across the Roman empire provided many with opportunity. And how important was it to hear Moses being taught if only 4 of his laws remained in effect per Acts 15. Also I doubt that Gentile believers were welcome in many synagogues - as we saw how Paul was treated.

In any case, Acts 15:21 was considered and rejected as there is no mention of the Sabbath in the letter written to the Gentiles (Acts 15:23-29).

Paul frequently fought those who pushed Mosaic laws on the Gentile believers (who he termed Judaizers) and he had some very harsh words for them (Gal 5:12). Are you sure you want to continue?
 
Last edited:
  • Useful
Reactions: Leaf473
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,433
4,605
Hudson
✟283,922.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Just because James's Jewish Jerusalem congregation heard Moses being preached every Sabbath does not mean that Gentile believers and synagogues scattered in low density across the Roman empire provided many with opportunity. And how important was it to hear Moses being taught if only 4 of his laws remained in effect per Acts 15. Also I doubt that Gentile believers were welcome in Jewish synagogues - as we saw how Paul was treated.

In any case, Acts 15:21 was considered and rejected as there is no mention of the Sabbath in the letter written to the Gentiles (Acts 15:23-29).

In Acts 15:21, it says from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues. This does not in any way limit what James was speaking about to just his congregation in Jerusalem. There would be no point in James stating what he did in Acts 15:21 if he though Gentiles only needed to learn four laws, but rather the point was that they would start with four laws and continue to learn other laws over time by continuing to hear Moses taught every Sabbath in the synagogues. In Acts 21:20, they were rejoicing that tens of thousands of Jews were coming to faith who all zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law, which was in accordance with believing in what Jesus gave himself to accomplish, so there would have been synagogues where Gentile believers would have been accepted. Acts 15:21 implies that Gentiles were already keeping the Sabbath holy in obedience to God's command in accordance with the example that Jesus set for us to follow.

Paul frequently fought those who pushed Mosaic laws on the Gentile believers (who he termed Judaizers) and he had some very harsh words for them (Gal 5:12). Are you sure you want to continue?

Paul was a servant of God, so he should not be interpreted as speaking against obeying Him. Either there are correct or incorrect reasons for becoming circumcised and Paul only spoke against the incorrect reasons, or according to Galatians 5:2, Paul caused Christ to be of no value to Timothy when he had him circumcised in Acts 16:3 right after the Jerusalem Council and Christ is of no value to roughly 80% of the men in the US. In Acts 15:1, there was a group from Judea who were wanting to require all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, however, that was never the purpose for which God commanded circumcision, so the Jerusalem Council upheld the Mosaic Law by correctly ruling against requiring circumcision for an incorrect reason, which should not be mistaken as being a ruling against obeying what God has commanded as if the Jerusalem Council had the authority to countermand God.
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,433
4,605
Hudson
✟283,922.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Another thing I take into consideration when it comes to Israel the Torah and Judaism, is it more often than not went off the rails and there was no obeying of comments and following God. All the way through right up to when the Messiah arrived. And they were so removed from God, they killed him too after killing the prophets. As Jesus said they didn't listen to either Moses or the Prophets. The Torah Law was a system that man consistently failed to be able to keep.

The good kinds tended to live for much longer than the evil kings did, especially because they tended to get assassinated, so if you add up the years, the Israel was under a good king roughly 80% of the time, which was far from perfect, but by no means a complete failure. Jesus criticizing them for not listening to Moses or the Prophets should not indicate to us that it would be a good idea for us not to listen to Moses or the Prophets. Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah, so he was much more zealous for obedience to it than the Pharisees were and he never criticized them for obeying what God commanded them to do, but he did criticize them for not obeying it (Matthew 7:6-9) or for not obeying it correctly. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matters of the law of justice, mercy, and faithfulness, so he was not opposing their obedience to it, but rather he was calling them to a fuller obedience to it in a manner that is in accordance with its weightier matters and free from hypocrisy. In Deuteronomy 30:11-14, God said that His law is not too difficult for us to keep.
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,433
4,605
Hudson
✟283,922.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
I think that's an unnecessary leap, that Jews were the only ones being told that it was okay to eat meat sacrificed to idols.

Gentile Christians could be strong, too. They too could understand that an idol was just a statue, and that a hamburger was just a hamburger.
_____________

On a related note, in the law of Moses, it says not to mention the name of a false god. But by the time of the church at Corinth, apparently it was okay in some cases to buy meat from those temples, thus contributing in a small way to their support.

If a change of that type is allowed and approved of by God, it seems reasonable that there could also be a change to the commandment about a holy assembly on the Sabbath.

In 1 Corinthians 10:14-21, Paul spoke against eating the sacrifices because they were participating in the altar, which is participating with demons. However, in verses 22-32, he drew a distinction between that and eating meat that had been sacrificed to idols that was later sold on the market. So this was not a change, but was simply clarifying what is and is not idolatry.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
8,167
2,197
54
Northeast
✟180,276.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
There are 1,050 command in the NT, so it really makes sense to you to interpret Acts 15:19-21 as excluding over 99% of what is commanded in the NT, including most of what was taught by Jesus, including the Ten Commandments and the greatest two commandments, and that Gentiles shouldn't follow Jesus outside a handful of commands? Do you really think that Gentiles are free to do every last thing that God prohibited in the Bible that is not covered by those four commands?



In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from God's law, so Jesus did not do raise the bar, though he did teach how to correctly obey God's law as it was originally intended. Teaching to love one another as he loved us is still within the scope of loving our neighbor as ourselves.



Do you think that God was wrong to command what He did? The Bible does not require a woman to marry her rapist. In Deuteronomy 22:25 the Hebrew word used for taking hold over her implies the use of force, so it is speaking about rape, but Deuteronomy 22:28 uses a different Hebrew word for taking hold of her that does not imply the use of force, so it is not speaking about rape.
About commandments in the New Testament, much of what we call the New Testament actually takes place under the old Covenant, before the cross. As I think I said earlier, Jesus is teaching how to live under the old Covenant to its fullest extent. He is fulfilling it.

I already talked about things not listed by the four instructions in Acts 15. We avoid them not because of the letters of the law of Moses, but because we love because he first loved us.

I agree that Jesus didn't add or subtract from Torah. They must be something from outside of Torah, then. Or the other possibility I've heard is that humans are not supposed to add to or subtract from Torah, but Jesus could as God.

1 Corinthians 14
If any man thinks himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him recognize the things which I write to you, that they are the commandment of the Lord.

Paul writes many things not found in Torah imo.

Deuteronomy 22:28 doesn't really sound like completely consensual to me.
Strong's Hebrew: 8610. תָּפַשׂ (taphas) -- to lay hold of, wield

But sure, maybe there's more than one way to interpret it. Shall we each just interpret it according to our best understanding? God's plan was for the Levites to teach the law imo.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: John Mullally
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
8,167
2,197
54
Northeast
✟180,276.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Galatians 4:8-11 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years! 11 I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain.

Paul addressed these verses to those who did not formerly know God, also known as former pagans. As such they were not formerly keeping God's holy days and thus he could not have been criticizing them for returning to them, so whatever he was referring to in verse 10 was within the context of paganism. This is another good example of how people have systematically taken verses that were only spoken against following the teaching of man and made them out to be speaking against obeying the commands of God.
There are at least two different kinds of thought going here on this thread.

I quoted out of Galatians 4 to support the idea that both Jews and gentiles could eat meat sacrificed idols if their consciences didn't bother them about it.
 
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
8,167
2,197
54
Northeast
✟180,276.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The goal was not to limit which laws Gentiles should follow, but to not make things too difficult for new believers, which they excused by saying they would continue to hear Moses being taught every Sabbath in the synagogues. Even today when someone is converting to Judaism, they don't make things too difficult for them by requiring them to obey everything in the Torah on day one. People continue to go to churches every week to learn more about how to obey the Bible. The NT commands are all based on and in accordance with the Mosaic Law, so there are no grounds for picking some while rejecting others.
Do you believe gentile converts were told to ignore some of the instructions in Torah when they were just starting out?
 
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
8,167
2,197
54
Northeast
✟180,276.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If you interpret Acts 15 as ruling that Gentiles don't have to become Jews obey the Torah in order to become followers of Christ in spite of him spending his ministry teaching his followers how to follow it by example, then the point raised in Acts 15:1 would never have become an issue because there would be no point in trying to get Gentiles to obey the Torah if Jews were supposed to stop obeying it when they became a follower of Jesus. So there has historically been a form of Christianity that is compatible with Torah observance, there has historically been some Jews who have publicly or privately converted to Christianity who continued to be Torah observant in accordance with the example that Christ set for them to follow, though historically the roles became reversed where there where was pressure put some that they needed to cease being Jews and obeying the Torah in order to become followers of Christ.

From this article: God Always Left a Remnant of Jewish Believers - ONE FOR ISRAEL Ministry

"Hegesippus was a Jewish Nazarene believer in the second century, and an early church historian. Although other early church leaders like Ignatius wrote against maintaining Jewish practice, Ignatius’ letters to the Philadelphian and Magnesian congregations shows that there were many Jewish people among them, some of whom had abandoned Jewish practices and others who had not.

Similarly, John Chrysostom’s anti-semitic writings indicate that there were Jewish believers in Yeshua still maintaining Jewish identity and the traditions of their ancestors well into the fourth century CE, much to his frustration. Epiphanius (303-403 CE), was the bishop of Constantia in Cyprus in his time, and though he was Jewish, he trained in monastic circles. By this time, the pressure on Jewish people who believed in Yeshua to identify only as “Christians” and to renounce their Jewish identity was extreme.

Saint Patrick (late 300s to 461 CE) is thought to have been a Messianic Jew, from a family who kept Jewish customs and lifestyle, like ritual purity traditions, celebrating Passover instead of Easter, and observing Shabbat. Attempts to edit his Jewish heritage out of the picture during a time of deep antisemitism in the church didn’t manage to cover the tracks completely.

The scant evidence of Jewish believers after the fourth century is due to the fact that the Jewish Messianic believers hid their Jewish identity, rather than ceased to exist. However, from the Middle Ages onwards, we see more and more evidence of Jewish people following Yeshua as their Messiah, especially in the last three centuries."

"Theodore John of Prague was a student and then teacher of Talmud and Rabbinic writings in Treves, Germany, but in 1692 declared his faith in Yeshua as Messiah, declaring “I found the said Christian faith to be in all its articles firmly grounded upon the Word of God, and agreeing with the faith of the former true Israel, in the time of the Patriarchs, as well as that of Moses and all the Prophets; which I praise God for, and heartily rejoice in.”[3]"

"Bob Dylan was born in 1941, originally named Robert Allen Zimmerman (Hebrew name Shabtai Zisl ben Avraham), and came to believe in Jesus in the 1970s. In 2011 he played in Tel Aviv and opened his set with the song, “Gonna Change My Way of Thinking” from his first openly Messianic album, with the lyrics, “Jesus is coming. He’s coming on back to gather his jewels”."

From: A BRIEF LIST OF MOST FAMOUS MESSIANIC JEWS

"RABINOWITZ, Joseph ben David(1837-1899), Russian Orthodox (Chasidic) Rabbi of Kishinev in Bessarabia, Hebrew scholar and writer. After the pogroms of 1881, he sought a Jewish homeland to solve the Jewish dilemma. He arrived in Jerusalem in 1882, representing Russian Jews, and while standing on the Mount of Olives, overlooking Jerusalem, he realized that "Jesus, our brother" was the only solution. On returning to Kishinev in 1885, he established the first modern messianic congregation called "the First Assembly of the Israelites of the New Covenant." Talmudic scholar and lawyer Joseph Rabinowitz is baptized in 1885 and, through writings and sermons, begins influencing Russian Jews to become "Sons of the New Covenant." He draws up a list of 12 articles of faith, patterned after Maimonides's 13 principles, but proclaiming Jesus as the Messiah. He writes parables such as this one: "Two foolish people were traveling in a four-wheeled wagon. Noticing that the wagon was moving heavily, they examined it and found that a wheel was missing. One of the foolish people sprang out and ran forward along the road, saying to every one he met, 'We have lost a wheel. Have you seen one?' At last a wise man said to him, 'You are looking in the wrong direction. You should seek your wheel behind the wagon, not in front of it.' This is the mistake that Jews have been making all of these centuries. The four wheels of Hebrew history are Abraham, Moses, David, and Jesus. Jews have been looking into the future when they should have been looking into the past." He kept ties with many Christian denominations, but kept his congregation insulated from denominational controversies and maintained the Jewish feasts and order of service (Aron Kodesh, Shabbat, Hebrew siddur, brit milah, mikveh-baptism, prayers and preaching in Hebrew, Yiddish and Russian). However the Brit Hadashah became part of the Scriptures and verses concerning Yeshua adorned the walls, such as, near the Torah, "Messiah is the end of the law." He also maintained that all Jewish believers retained their Jewish identity although there is no difference between Jews and gentile believers. Most of his flock were victims of war and the Holocaust."

"LEVERTOFF , Paul Phillip (1878-1954): late 19th and early 20th century pioneering Hebrew-Christian scholar and leader. Born in Orsha, Belarus, as Feivel Levertoff, of a Sephardic background whose religious persuasion was Hassidic. Attended the Volozhin Yeshiva, a Lithuanian Jewish prominent Rabbinic seminary. He was baptized in 11 August 1895 in Königsberg, where he was pursuing University studies. Seeking employment as a missionary on 11 December 1896, he applied for a position with the London Jews Society (L JS). He was accepted and soon worked full time in his new vocation. In 1901, having joined the staff of the Hebrew Christian Testimony to Israel (HCTI), founded by David Baron and Charles Andrew Schönberger in 1893, he served as their principal translator and writer. He published numerous articles in the Scattered Nation between 1901-1909 and traveled throughout the Mediterranean as one the most active missionaries. [ Read more] Levertoff’s book on Jesus in Hebrew, Ben ha-Adam, (“The Son of Man”) predated Joseph Klausner’s own book on Jesus, Yeshu ha-Notsri, by over 17 years, which itself is generally considered the first book written on Jesus and Christianity’s early beginnings by a Jewish scholar in Modern Hebrew. It has been reprinted in Israel Jerusalem: Dolphin (1968). He also authored Viduyei Augustinus ha-Kadosh (“The Confessions of St. Augustine”), the first translation into Hebrew of a major work by a Latin Church Father. In 1910, he was appointed as Evangelist in Constantinople by the United Free Church of Scotland Jewish Committee, met his Welsh future wife there, and returned to England where they got married. He was appointed to the position of teacher of Hebrew and Rabbinics with the Institutum Judaicum Delitzschianum (IJD), a postgraduate institute for Jewish missions founded by Franz Delitzsch in Leipzig, Germany. He relocated from Warsaw to Leipzig on 1 April 1912, to take over the teaching position at the IJD, which had been left vacant by the death of Jechiel Zebi Herschensohn-Lichtenstein. A year later, Levertoff and a colleague posthumously published Lichtenstein’s revised Matthew commentary in Hebrew. The IJD’s class schedules from 1912 to 1917 (published in its journal Saat auf Hoffnung) have Levertoff teaching a variety of courses. He was commissioned by the University [of Leipzig] to write three books:. The edition and German translation, with commentary, of the Pesikta Rabbati, a collection of ancient Synagogue homilies never before translated into any language, a German translation of the whole of the Palestinian Talmud [Talmud Yerushalmi], with commentary, “Die religiöse Denkweise der Chassidim” – the first systematic treatise on intellectual Jewish mysticism. The first and third of these works were produced, though, for lack of funds, only the third was published. The Talmud… never reached the public…[because of] the advent of a new “race-cultured” system in Germany… render[ed] its publication impossible. Levertoff eventually made an English adaptation of this third work that he later published as Love and the Messianic Age. It was his attempt in exploring similarities between Hassidic and New Testament theology. Impoverisshed by WWI, Levertoff and his family returned to his wife’s native Wales, where, between 1919 through 1922, he held the position of librarian at St. Deiniol’s Library, Hawarden (Flintshire County). During this time, he was also ordained by the Archbishop of Wales into the Church of England. In 1923, he became Director of the East London Fund for the Jews and took over Holy Trinity, a church in Shoreditch while making his residence in Ilford. While in this position, he published the quarterly The Church and the Jews. He followed in the tradition of Joseph Rabinowitz and Hayyim Yedidyah Pollak, to establish an independent community and congregation of Jewish believers. Levertoff appealed to “… those Jews who are not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ and of their Jewish origin … to unite as a community … and institute Jewish Christian services of worship which would present our Faith in terms of the rich background of devotional and mystical Jewish traditions.” To that end in 1925, Levertoff published his Hebrew liturgy Meal of the Holy King. Levertoff read from a Torah scroll with tallit and kippah as part of the Hebrew services at Holy Trinity. Levertoff himself mentions his involvement with the IHCA’s Hebrew Christian Church Commission in 1932 in his publication, The Church and the Jews. In the same space, he presents his own draft for the “The Ten Principles of the Faith of the Hebrew Christian Church” much of which was later incorporated into the final version as “The Proposed Articles of Faith for the Hebrew Christian Church.” In 1933, along with Harry Sperling and Maurice Simon, he helped translate the Zohar into English for the first time for Soncino Press. During his tenure as the priest at Holy Trinity, in addition to leading a small community of Jewish believers, Levertoff assisted everyone from Hans Herzl , also a believer and son of Theodore Herzl, to provide succor to refugees from Austria and Nazi Germany. One intriguing work by Levertoff that unfortunately seems lost is Christ and the Shekinah, which Lev Gillet, a friend of Levertoff, first mentioned in 1939. Levertoff considered it his magnum opus. Gillet explains “…[Levertoff] understood the importance of an intellectual appeal and the necessity of expressing the theological concepts of Christianity in Jewish terms (according to him, along the lines of the Shekinah teaching and of Hasidic mysticism).” Levertoff lived in the twilight of the Haskalah and died 31 July 1954, at the dawn of the modern Jewish state. He is today perhaps more relevant to us than he was 75 years ago when he seemed nothing more than a fringe theological curiosity. (Source:adapted from From Mishkan #37, Fall 2002. © J. Quiñónez)
---------------

Pointing out what Christianity was like during the first 7-15 years does not mean that it immediately fizzled out after that. Again, there were a number of Jewish Christian sects like Ebionites and Nazarenes were followers of Jesus who continued to live in obedience to the Torah, and Nazarenes were still referred to in the 11th century:

"As late as the eleventh century, Cardinal Humbert of Mourmoutiers still referred to the Nazarene sect as a Sabbath-keeping Christian body existing at that time.[24] Modern scholars believe it is the Pasagini or Pasagians who are referenced by Cardinal Humbert, suggesting the Nazarene sect existed well into the eleventh century and beyond (the Catholic writings of Bonacursus entitled Against the Heretics). It is believed that Gregorius of Bergamo, about 1250 CE, also wrote concerning the Nazarenes as the Pasagians."

Again, if someone starts to following the teaching of a Jewish sect in the 1st century, then they are returning to something ancient, not inventing something new, and whether or not the teachings of that sect should be considered to be correct should be evaluated on their own merits.



Lutherans and Baptists are denominations that didn't start until the 1500's or 1600's, so it seems inconsistent to reject what a denomination teaches simply based on when it started. Much of what the Torah teaches is repeated in the NT, so there is nothing preventing me from having fellowship with Christians who believe that we should follow what is taught in the NT. We can all be unified in agreement on things like the Trinity, that we should follow Jesus, that we should believe in him, and that we are justified by grace through faith, though we can have different perspectives on what that means. There is much value that can be learned form people from other denominations and I can strongly disagree with someone about many issues while still learning much of value from them.
Thanks for the info, but it's not quite what I was asking for.

The years 800 or 1200... the followers of Jesus were a city set on a hill, that means they would be obvious imo. And not just Sabbath keepers, full Torah keepers.

I don't doubt that we could find examples in the early centuries, or the last few. Or that there were tiny Jewish communities which became Messianic.

But where was the city set on a hill? The light that Jesus lit that gave light to the whole room?
 
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
8,167
2,197
54
Northeast
✟180,276.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
In 1 Corinthians 10:14-21, Paul spoke against eating the sacrifices because they were participating in the altar, which is participating with demons. However, in verses 22-32, he drew a distinction between that and eating meat that had been sacrificed to idols that was later sold on the market. So this was not a change, but was simply clarifying what is and is not idolatry.
Meat that had been sacrificed to idols and was then sold in the marketplace would then help support the idol temple, it seems like. Is supporting idol temples allowed in Torah?

Again, it would be handy to have someone authorized by God to give the meaning of Torah.

On a similar note, do you believe people in those churches were supporting the Levites out of their tithes?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,433
4,605
Hudson
✟283,922.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
About commandments in the New Testament, much of what we call the New Testament actually takes place under the old Covenant, before the cross. As I think I said earlier, Jesus is teaching how to live under the old Covenant to its fullest extent. He is fulfilling it.

Then do think that Jesus establish the New Covenant for purpose of undermining anything that he spent his ministry teaching? Or that anything in the New Covenant is not is contrary or not in accordance with the Mosaic Covenant?

I already talked about things not listed by the four instructions in Acts 15. We avoid them not because of the letters of the law of Moses, but because we love because he first loved us.

In Exodus 20:6, God wanted His people to love Him and obey His commandments, so obedience to everything in the Law is Moses is because he first loved us.

I agree that Jesus didn't add or subtract from Torah. They must be something from outside of Torah, then. Or the other possibility I've heard is that humans are not supposed to add to or subtract from Torah, but Jesus could as God.

Jesus was born under the law (Galatians 4:4), so that included Deuteronomy 4:2. Furthermore, in Deuteronomy 13:4-5, the way that God instructed His people to determine that someone was a false prophet was if they taught against obeying the Torah, so if Jesus had done that, then according to God, we should regard him as a sinner and false prophet rather than our Savior.

1 Corinthians 14
If any man thinks himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him recognize the things which I write to you, that they are the commandment of the Lord.

Paul writes many things not found in Torah imo.

There are a number of instances where Paul makes it clear that he is giving his own opinion rather than a command from God.

Deuteronomy 22:28 doesn't really sound like completely consensual to me.
Strong's Hebrew: 8610. תָּפַשׂ (taphas) -- to lay hold of, wield

But sure, maybe there's more than one way to interpret it. Shall we each just interpret it according to our best understanding? God's plan was for the Levites to teach the law imo.

Having consensual sex with a woman generally involves holding onto them. Forcing someone to marry their rapist would not be just.

There are at least two different kinds of thought going here on this thread.

I quoted out of Galatians 4 to support the idea that both Jews and gentiles could eat meat sacrificed idols if their consciences didn't bother them about it.

Paul distinguished between eating meat from the altar, which we are not permitted to do, and eating meat that had been sacrificed to idols that was later sold on the market, which we are permitted to do.

Do you believe gentile converts were told to ignore some of the instructions in Torah when they were just starting out?

Imagine what it would have been like for a Gentile who was a new believer who was unfamiliar with Christianity. They would want to be learning about what is expected of them in this new religion and about how to follow Christ, but there are a ton rules that are overwhelming and they don't know for sure whether things they previously didn't see anything wrong with doing is now forbidden. Depending on who they sit next to they might hear different things about what they should be doing or they might be told that they need to follow certain traditions like fasting twice a week, or they might be getting criticized for doing something that they didn't think was wrong. It might be very overwhelming for them and they might leave before understanding what Christianity is all about, and Jews might be getting swamped with questions from all these new believers, so in order to avoid that, they wanted a set of rules that all new believers should be told to follow so that they were all on the same page with the understanding that they would continue to learn about how to obey Moses over time by hearing him taught every Sabbath in the synagogues. This is not saying that they should ignore some of the instructions in the Torah, but that they should be given some slack as they are starting to learn how to obey the Torah and not need to worry about knowing everything that they will ever need to know on day one.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Leaf473
Upvote 0

John Mullally

Well-Known Member
Aug 5, 2020
2,376
820
Califormia
✟133,457.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
In Acts 15:1, there was a group from Judea who were wanting to require all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, however, that was never the purpose for which God commanded circumcision, so the Jerusalem Council upheld the Mosaic Law by correctly ruling against requiring circumcision for an incorrect reason, which should not be mistaken as being a ruling against obeying what God has commanded as if the Jerusalem Council had the authority to countermand God.
Now that is a very long sentence. The Jerusalem Council did not countermand God - you just don't accept their decision. Many particularly Jewish ceremonial laws (like the feasts, Circumcision, keeping the Sabbath, and most dietary laws) did not continue in the New Covenant - as they are not covered by Jesus's commandments or the few Mosaic laws that apply to Gentile believers.

The letter to the Gentile believers concerning keeping the Mosaic law (Acts 15:23-29) includes a greeting (v23), states the purpose of the letter (v23-27), and identifies which Mosaic laws the Gentiles are to keep (v 28-29). Its very short and doesn't go into any of the spin you are trying to inject. Paul was not interested in the Gentile believers being circumcised and he had graphic words for those who pushed for that in Galatians 5:12.

Confirmation: Paul reiterates the crux of the letter to the Gentiles (i.e. Acts 15:28-29) years later in Acts 21:25.

Example: In Galatians 2:14 we see that Peter lived like a Gentile by not following Jewish customs. Note that Paul openly chastised him for a different reason in that passage (i.e. hypocrisy).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

John Mullally

Well-Known Member
Aug 5, 2020
2,376
820
Califormia
✟133,457.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Paul caused Christ to be of no value to Timothy when he had him circumcised in Acts 16:3 right after the Jerusalem Council and Christ is of no value to roughly 80% of the men in the US.
Paul had Timothy circumcised to avoid destructive confrontations with Judaizers as much as possible.

Paul also had his and his cohorts heads shaved in Acts 21:24 to avoid destructive confrontation with other Pharisee types.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Ceallaigh

May God be with you and bless you.
Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
19,071
9,928
The Keep
✟581,496.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The good kinds tended to live for much longer than the evil kings did, especially because they tended to get assassinated, so if you add up the years, the Israel was under a good king roughly 80% of the time, which was far from perfect, but by no means a complete failure. Jesus criticizing them for not listening to Moses or the Prophets should not indicate to us that it would be a good idea for us not to listen to Moses or the Prophets. Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah, so he was much more zealous for obedience to it than the Pharisees were and he never criticized them for obeying what God commanded them to do, but he did criticize them for not obeying it (Matthew 7:6-9) or for not obeying it correctly. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matters of the law of justice, mercy, and faithfulness, so he was not opposing their obedience to it, but rather he was calling them to a fuller obedience to it in a manner that is in accordance with its weightier matters and free from hypocrisy. In Deuteronomy 30:11-14, God said that His law is not too difficult for us to keep.
Under a good king 80% of the time? First it took a long time until there was a king, which was against God's will. And most of those kings were not good.

8zC56xj.png
 
  • Agree
Reactions: John Mullally
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Ceallaigh

May God be with you and bless you.
Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
19,071
9,928
The Keep
✟581,496.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
In Acts 15:21, it says from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues. This does not in any way limit what James was speaking about to just his congregation in Jerusalem. There would be no point in James stating what he did in Acts 15:21 if he though Gentiles only needed to learn four laws, but rather the point was that they would start with four laws and continue to learn other laws over time by continuing to hear Moses taught every Sabbath in the synagogues. In Acts 21:20, they were rejoicing that tens of thousands of Jews were coming to faith who all zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law, which was in accordance with believing in what Jesus gave himself to accomplish, so there would have been synagogues where Gentile believers would have been accepted. Acts 15:21 implies that Gentiles were already keeping the Sabbath holy in obedience to God's command in accordance with the example that Jesus set for us to follow.



Paul was a servant of God, so he should not be interpreted as speaking against obeying Him. Either there are correct or incorrect reasons for becoming circumcised and Paul only spoke against the incorrect reasons, or according to Galatians 5:2, Paul caused Christ to be of no value to Timothy when he had him circumcised in Acts 16:3 right after the Jerusalem Council and Christ is of no value to roughly 80% of the men in the US. In Acts 15:1, there was a group from Judea who were wanting to require all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, however, that was never the purpose for which God commanded circumcision, so the Jerusalem Council upheld the Mosaic Law by correctly ruling against requiring circumcision for an incorrect reason, which should not be mistaken as being a ruling against obeying what God has commanded as if the Jerusalem Council had the authority to countermand God.
First there's more than Acts to go by. Second that article is a Messianic publication, so one can't necessarily expect an unbiased objective presentation. The same holds true for SDA publications like Amazing Facts. There's no Biblical evidence that any of the churches Paul wrote to were engaged in Torah practicing Judaism. I'm sure there was a transition period regarding Jews going from Judaism to Christianity, but the church did rapidly transition away from Judaism nonetheless. It seems the idea of being Messianic is to try getting back into that brief period when Jews were transitioning from Judaism to Christianity and staying there.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.