What is the difficulty of getting into heaven?

Soyeong · Aug 3, 2022

The Psalms express an extremely positive view of God's law, such as with David repeatedly saying that he loved it and delighted in obeying it, so if we consider the Psalms to be Scripture and to therefore express a correct view of God's law, then we will share it, as Paul did (Romans 7:22). For example, in Psalms 1:1-2, blessed are those who delight in the law of the Lord who meditate on it day and night. We can't uphold the truth of these words as Scripture while not allowing them to shape our view of God's law. Furthermore, people like the NT authors who agree that the Psalms are Scripture should be interpreted as though they were in complete agreement with the view of God's law that is expressed in the Psalms rather than a negative view of God's law that is incompatible with the view that the Psalms are Scripture.

Soyeong · Aug 3, 2022

frank sears said:
Read Acts 15, it was all answered there.

Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey God's law by word and by example, so does it make sense to you to interpret Acts 15 as the Jerusalem Council ruling that Gentiles shouldn't follow Christ outside of a handful of laws and as holding a view of God's law that is incompatible with the view that the Psalms are Scripture?

SavedByGrace3 · Aug 3, 2022

I get the feeling that before long, we will be talking about requiring circumcision and reinstituting the daily sacrifice. They are, after all, included in the law of Moses.
Nuff said from my POV. Let the reader take care.

Act 15:24
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Soyeong · Aug 3, 2022

SavedByGrace3 said:
I get the feeling that before long, we will be talking about requiring circumcision and reinstituting the daily sacrifice. They are, after all, included in the law of Moses.
Nuff said from my POV. Let the reader take care.

Act 15:24
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Either there are correct or incorrect reasons for choosing to become circumcised and Paul only spoke against the incorrect reasons or according to Galatians 5:2, Paul caused Christ to be of no value to Timothy when he had him circumcised after the Jerusalem Council in Acts 16:3, and Christ is of no value to roughly 80% of the men in the US. In Acts 15:1, they were want to require all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, however, that was never the purpose for which God commanded circumcision, so they upheld God's law by correctly ruling against requiring circumcision for an incorrect purpose, which should not be mistaken as ruling against obeying what God has commanded as if the Jerusalem Council had the authority to countermand God.

So when God has commanded something and you think that the Jerusalem Council ruled against obeying God, then you have a decision to make about who has the higher authority and which one you should follow. The bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man, so you should be quicker to disregard everything that any man has said than to disregard anything that God has commanded, but the reality is that the Jerusalem Council were servants of God who should not be interpreted as speaking against obeying Him as if obedience to God were somehow a negative thing. Do you really think that that God can't be trusted to give us commands that are for our own good and instead gives us commands for the goal of subverting our souls, so we're better off living in disobedience to Him?

fhansen · Aug 3, 2022

Handmaid for Jesus said:
Jesus saves us from the law! Our Father knew mankind could not keep it! That is why He came in the flesh, kept the law perfectly, died for the ungodly, was raised from death,ascended back to Heaven, and sent back the Comforter, the Spirit of truth. If ANYONE believes this they are saved. It is very simple. Don't make it hard. It is hard for those who try to keep the law on their own.

Our Father did not create us to be sinners; everything He created is good. And the commandments are holy, right, spiritual, and good (Rom 7), meaning that they are right for man.

So what's the problem? The problem with man is that he's been spiritually divorced from God since Eden. It's not that he's some kind of sin machine now, but that he has no self-control or moral integrity on his own, apart from God, the source of all righteousness, the source of not only the commandments, but of our ability to obey them. So the new covenant is not about freedom from the obligation to be righteous or overcome sin. Rather it the very means to overcome sin, the only right way, in union with God, a relationship that man was made for, and is lost, sick, disordered, dead without. That's why there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus who not only accomplishes remission of sin but also takes them away-purifies us of them. Think union with God: that's the primary difference between the old and new covenants and the reason why the old, with our being "under the law", could not accomplish what the new can, now under grace.

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people." Jer 31:33-34

fhansen · Aug 3, 2022

SavedByGrace3 said:
I get the feeling that before long, we will be talking about requiring circumcision and reinstituting the daily sacrifice. They are, after all, included in the law of Moses.
Nuff said from my POV. Let the reader take care.

The ancient church and the church to this day views the moral law, the ten commandments, as obligatory, and the New Testament supports this as well. The gospel is simply not a license to sin. If we believe, OTOH, that it's now ok to steal, to lie, to commit adultery, to kill, then nuff said, I guess. They're either ok or they're not, whether or not any commandments exist regarding them, and whether we even hear them or not: Rom 2:13.

We don't achieve any real righteousness by virtue of attempting to do it in our own, by the Letter, under the law, but by virtue of union with God, by the Spirit, under grace. Paul knew the difference, that we were to fulfill the commandments by love, Rom 13:10, given to us by the Spirit, Rom 5:5. He knew that the mere show of holiness by outward observance of the law meant nothing, just as removing a little piece of flesh from the body was no indicator of true, interior holiness. But he never denied that true holiness was possible for man-just the opposite, in fact.

SavedByGrace3 · Aug 3, 2022

Back to the OP.
Could anyone be saved by a gospel that required a complete understanding of the Law of Moses? Most gentiles and many Jews would never be saved. Too complicated. Far away from the simplicity of the Gospel as related by Paul. As a gentile, I should not have to become a Jewish scholar to be saved.

2Co 11:3
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

SavedByGrace3 · Aug 3, 2022

fhansen said:
The ancient church and the church to this day views the moral law, the ten commandments, as obligatory, and the New Testament supports this as well. The gospel is simply not a license to sin. If we believe, OTOH, that it's now ok to steal, to lie, to commit adultery, to kill, then nuff said, I guess. They're either ok or they're not, whether or not any commandments exist regarding them, and whether we even hear them or not: Rom 2:13.

We don't achieve any real righteousness by virtue of attempting to do it in our own, by the Letter, under the law, but by virtue of union with God, by the Spirit, under grace. Paul knew the difference, that we were to fulfill the commandments by love, Rom 13:10, given to us by the Spirit, Rom 5:5. He knew that the mere show of holiness by outward observance of the law meant nothing, just as removing a little piece of flesh from the body was no indicator of true, interior holiness. But he never denied that true holiness was possible for man-just the opposite, in fact.

Amen. But we are talking about how to get saved. What does it take to be saved? Did you, or anyone else, walk perfectly on day one? How about day 430? How about now?
Of course, we want to live holy and righteous lives before God.
No one is suggesting otherwise.

Brightfame52 · Aug 3, 2022

Going to heaven depends on whether or not God chose us in Christ Jesus before the foundation. If He did, then Christ came and redeemed us by His Blood, and the Spirit will give us faith and preservation unto glory ! But the key and foundation is whether God Almighty chose us in Christ.

SavedByGrace3 · Aug 3, 2022

I wrote a book several years ago. I do not remember what year it was published, entitled "How to Never Sin Again." It was/is right along the line that some are speaking here. You hide the word of God in your heart so that you do not sin. You meditate on the word. You walk according to the inclinations of your reborn spirit. But you cannot do that until you have a reborn spirit. That is the result of the gospel and believing into the resurrection of Christ. We were raised up together with Him, and we are charged to put on that divine nature in our walk. We are charged to renew our minds with the inclinations of that reborn spirit with the Law of Love.
Yes... we are to walk in holiness, righteous before the Lord!

fhansen · Aug 3, 2022

SavedByGrace3 said:
Amen. But we are talking about how to get saved. What does it take to be saved? Did you, or anyone else, walk perfectly on day one? How about day 430? How about now?
Of course, we want to live holy and righteous lives before God.
No one is suggesting otherwise.

Salvation depends not only on a one-time event of being justified, but also on how we walk in that justice with whatever time and opportunity and grace we're given. To believe in, hope in, and love God and neighbor are both matters of grace, and human choices to embrace and act upon that grace. So justification is a free gift of grace that comes as we turn to God in faith, faith, itself being a gift of grace. As with all gifts, however, we can refuse and reject them at any point, or throw them back after reception.

fhansen · Aug 3, 2022

Brightfame52 said:
Going to heaven depends on whether or not God chose us in Christ Jesus before the foundation. If He did, then Christ came and redeemed us by His Blood, and the Spirit will give us faith and preservation unto glory ! But the key and foundation is whether God Almighty chose us in Christ.

It still hinges on how we live our lives, righteously or not, on how well we love to put to correctly. Scripture speaks much of faith, and much of the righteousness given us on the basis of faith. Scripture also lists the kinds of sins that will keep us from heaven. If we can predict our own perseverance in righteousness, then, ok...I guess we'd know with 100% certainty that our names are written in the Book of Life. I'll only say that it's never been the intention of God that such a listing should have nothing to do with how we actually live our lives. And He, alone, knows with perfect certainty whose names are there.

Brightfame52 · Aug 3, 2022

fhansen said:
It still hinges on how we live our lives, righteously or not, on how well we love IOW. Scripture lists the kinds of sins that will keep us from heaven. If we can predict our own perseverance in righteousness, then, ok...we'd know with 100% certainty that our names are written in the Book of Life. I'll only say that it's never been the intention of /God that such a listing has nothing to do with how we live our lives. And He, alone, knows with perfect certainty whose names are there.

No it doesnt depend on how you live your life. Thats works religion. It depends on God alone

Brightfame52 · Aug 3, 2022

SavedByGrace3 said:
I wrote a book several years ago. I do not remember what year it was published, entitled "How to Never Sin Again." It was/is right along the line that some are speaking here. You hide the word of God in your heart so that you do not sin. You meditate on the word. You walk according to the inclinations of your reborn spirit. But you cannot do that until you have a reborn spirit. That is the result of the gospel and believing into the resurrection of Christ. We were raised up together with Him, and we are charged to put on that divine nature in our walk. We are charged to renew our minds with the inclinations of that reborn spirit with the Law of Love.
Yes... we are to walk in holiness, righteous before the Lord!

Gods elect are holy, righteous, unblameable before God, you know why ?

SavedByGrace3 · Aug 3, 2022

fhansen said:
Salvation depends not only on a one-time event of being justified, but also on how we walk in that justice with whatever time and opportunity and grace we're given. To believe in, hope in, and love God and neighbor are both matters of grace, and human choices to embrace and act upon that grace. So justification is a free gift of grace that comes as we turn to God in faith, faith, itself being a gift of grace. As with all gifts, however, we can refuse and reject them at any point, or throw them back after reception.

Understood.
One would say, as Jesus and John did, that He never knew them, or that they were never a part of the body to start with.

Matthew 7:23
23. And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

1 John 2:19
19. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

fhansen · Aug 3, 2022

Brightfame52 said:
No it doesnt depend on how you live your life. Thats works religion. It depends on God alone

No, that's God's religion. We cannot have or prove our righteousness by ourselves because we have none by ourselves. Only with God is righteousness possible for man, even as that is exactly what man was created for, all of this involving a plan and purpose of God's from the beginning-to get us "there".

"...not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith." Phil 3:9

"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe." Rom 3:21-22

"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!" Rom 5:17

"And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:3-4

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13

SavedByGrace3 · Aug 3, 2022

I think it is shocking to many believers that nobody was born again with a clean and pure heart before the resurrection of Jesus. David, Moses, all the prophets, John the Baptist, not even the apostles or believers within the gospels were born again.

SavedByGrace3 · Aug 3, 2022

Brightfame52 said:
Gods elect are holy, righteous, unblameable before God, you know why ?

Ohhhh... I have been fooled by open ended question before BF2.
I'll let you answer. I am sure you have a perfect answer ready to go. :oldthumbsup:

fhansen · Aug 3, 2022

SavedByGrace3 said:
One would say, as Jesus and John did, that He never knew them, or that they were never a part of the body to start with.

That's one way of attempting to explain it. Others would maintain that a believer can turn and walk back away from God. Scripture appears to support this.

renniks · Aug 3, 2022

Soyeong said:
In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, God said that the Mosaic Law is not too difficult to keep and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as something that is impossible to keep, and believing that we can keep it as a matter of putting our faith in what God has said. The Israelites were given a number of laws while they were still wandering the wilderness for 40 years that had the condition "when you enter the land..." so there is nothing wrong with not following laws that don't have their conditions met. Laws in regard to temple practice require there to be a temple along with a presiding priesthood. When the Israelites were in exile in Babylon, the condition for their return to the land was to first return to obedience to God's law, which required them to have access to the temple that had just been destroyed, so when there are laws that don't have their conditions met, we should nevertheless be faithful to obey as much as we can.

Sin is defined as the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), God's law commands against marring the corners of our beard, against eating unclean animals, and against mixing wool and linen, so it is therefore a sin to do those things, and the NT instructs us to repent from our sins.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the nations, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel message. Furthermore, Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). So Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey the Law of Moses by word and by example and it would be absurd to interpret Galatians as if Paul were warning them against following Christ. Furthermore, in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so if we believe that what Jesus accomplished through his ministry and through the cross is enough, then we will become zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law (Acts 21:20).

"You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

14 "For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

What is the difficulty of getting into heaven?

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Jesus is Lord of ALL! (Not asking permission)

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Jesus is Lord of ALL! (Not asking permission)

Jesus is Lord of ALL! (Not asking permission)

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Jesus is Lord of ALL! (Not asking permission)

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Jesus is Lord of ALL! (Not asking permission)

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Jesus is Lord of ALL! (Not asking permission)

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