What is the difficulty of getting into heaven?

fhansen

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Yes it is the Holy Spirit that draws mankind into Himself. It is the Holy Spirit that keeos us. It is not hard to understand
But never against your will, which He won't simply change. He appeals to us, He draws us, He even moves us but to the extent we're able He wants it to be our choice, beginning with faith, and increasingly so, stronger and more confirmed throughout our lives.

That responsibility and our acting on it, but not without the help of grace, is necessary in order for man to have righteousness. If he cannot still say "no", at any point in his walk, as a very real possibility, then sanctification would be impossible. Man is a morally accountable being. And the following is as true today as it was back in the day.

He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God." Micah 6:8

Anyway, it's quite simple to understand. God means to produce something in all this, something grand and noble as He draws us into greater and greater righteousness, greater and greater love, into His own image. That's what man was made for, and it begins with faith, the first right act for man..
 
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Handmaid for Jesus

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what does falling away refer to ?after falling away they cannot return to repentance... thats a fine verse. scary
It is people who believe at first, but they stop believing at some point. There are a lot of people who say they believe, they get baptized in water by men(go through the ritual) but they are not baptized in the Spirit. The book of Acts tells of many people who have been baptized in water but the Apostles needed to go to them and impart the Holy Spirit to them.
Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

You see, they heard the Word preached and were baptized in water, but, the Holy Sporit/Holy Ghost did not fall upon them at their water baptism. Now this Simon was baptized with the rest, but he tried to buy the Holy Spirit and Peter soundly rebuked him. There are quite a few Simons in the world today.
 
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Soyeong

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Romans 13:8-10 by its nature includes all Scripture. . .as being fulfilled by it.

It's not complicated.

So for example a way to correctly obey the command to love our neighbor as ourselves is by helping the poor, so love fulfills the command to help the poor and the command to love is inclusive of it. However, if someone thinks that they just need to obey the command to love and therefore they don't need to obey God's command to help the poor, then they are interpreting Romans 13:8-10 as excluding the command to help the poor and are pitting Scripture against itself. The same is true for all of God's other commands, but you won't agree that we should obey the Law of Moses, which is part of Scripture, so you are pitting Scripture against Scripture, whereas I do not interpret any Scripture as being contrary to obeying the Law of Moses, so I am not putting Scripture against Scripture.
 
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Clare73

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So for example a way to correctly obey the command to love our neighbor as ourselves is by helping the poor, so love fulfills the command to help the poor and the command to love is inclusive of it. However, if someone thinks that they just need to obey the command to love and therefore they don't need to obey God's command to help the poor, then they are interpreting Romans 13:8-10 as excluding the command to help the poor and are pitting Scripture against itself. The same is true for all of God's other commands, but you won't agree that we should obey the Law of Moses, which is part of Scripture, so you are pitting Scripture against Scripture, whereas I do not interpret any Scripture as being contrary to obeying the Law of Moses, so I am not putting Scripture against Scripture.
Does not alter that Romans 13:8-10 is inclusive of all Scripture, it all being fulfilled by it.
 
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renniks

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While we don't need to rely in doing good deeds to earn our entrance to eternal life as a wage, entering eternal life nevertheless requires us to choose to do them.
That leads to the question of how many good deeds are enough? Can I ever do enough good to be worthy of heaven? If I never do anything but die shortly after accepting Jesus, do I go to hell? No the overall theme in the New testament is all our righteousness comes from Christ, not what we do.
 
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The same is true for all of God's other commands, but you won't agree that we should obey the Law of Moses, which is part of Scripture, so you are pitting Scripture against Scripture, whereas I do not interpret any Scripture as being contrary to obeying the Law of Moses,
John 1:17
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
 
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renniks

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Jesus saves us from the law! Our Father knew mankind could not keep it! That is why He came in the flesh, kept the law perfectly, died for the ungodly, was raised from death,ascended back to Heaven, and sent back the Comforter, the Spirit of truth. If ANYONE believes this they are saved. It is very simple. Don't make it hard. It is hard for those who try to keep the law on their own.
What I don't get about the law keepers is how they can't understand that it's impossible to keep the Mosaic law. There's no sacrificial system anymore. I bet they don't let thier sideburns grow or avoid mixed fabrics and shell fish either.
Galatians is so clear about the law being done away with but some just try and follow another law they invent. Wasn't Jesus enough?
 
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Handmaid for Jesus

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What I don't get about the law keepers is how they can't understand that it's impossible to keep the Mosaic law. There's no sacrificial system anymore. I bet they don't let thier sideburns grow or avoid mixed fabrics and shell fish either.
Galatians is so clear about the law being done away with but some just try and follow another law they invent. Wasn't Jesus enough?
Yes! Jesus paid it all!
 
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Soyeong

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John 1:17
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

John 1:17 (YLT) 17 for the law through Moses was given, the grace and the truth through Jesus Christ did come;

In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, and in Psalms 119:142, the Mosaic Law truth, so grace and truth came through Jesus because he spent his ministry graciously teaching us to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example. There is no "but" in the Greek in verses 17, rather verse 16 says grace upon grace, so verse 17 is making two parallel statements that are both examples of grace and truth.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Again, in Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God, so obedience to God is part of the way to receive the Spirit, while Galatians 3:1-2 denies that works of the law are part of the way to receive the Spirit, therefore work of the law are not in obedience to God and that phrase does not refer to the Law of God. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7) and a law that isn't trustworthy can't come from a God who is trustworthy, so to rely on the Law of God is to rely on God while to deny that the Law of God is of faith is to deny the faithfulness of God, so it is works of the law that are not of faith, not the Law of God, which our faith upholds (Romans 3:31). There is a curse for not relying on the Law of God, so those who instead rely on works of the law come under that cruse. Paul's problem in Galatians was not with those who were teaching Gentiles how to obey the Law of God as if obedience to God was somehow a negative thing or as if God should not be trusted to guide us through His law, but rather rather his problem was with those who were wanting to require Gentiles to obey their works of the law in order to become justified. Likewise, Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey the Law of God by word and by example and Galatians should not be interpreted as speaking against following Christ.
Sorry, you are doing precisely what the Galatian Christians did. You get people saved, and then attempt to put them back under the law.
This part is close:
"In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while it denies that we can earn our salvation by our works lest anyone should boast, doing good works is nevertheless still an integral part of our salvation."
I agree that once a man is born again, he is then capable of walking in love. But if a man can be lost by the law after he is saved, then it can only be he is under the law and subject to the law.
For all intents and purposes, he has become a Jew. There is no practical difference between his walk, and the walk of an unconverted Jew.
I think you are mistakenly equating "good works" with "the law." Yes, we all called to good works which are the natural result of a new nature. And yes, people should be commended for holiness and righteousness, but that is not what saved us.
Thank you for the discussion.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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dang I didnt realize thats what the messianic law is
Looking for the term "messianic law" in the scripture.
Seaching... searching.... searching...
Nope. Cannot seem to find it. Perhaps it is from another version of the scripture?
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Re: Including the Law in the Gospel.
Usually, I let most things slide. Not this one. Paul wrote Galatians to counter this exact error. The Epistle to the Hebrews is a massive repudiation of going back under the law. I hope those following this thread can take the time to review these important books in the Scriptures!
Blessing and peace to all. In the name of Jesus!
 
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Alive2

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I generally talk about the simple historic events of the Cross, Resurrection and Ascension and how being 'In Christ' of the Father assured that we each of us, share that history.
Salvation is Relocation.
We died, we rose in new Life and we ascended in and with Him.
This one simple statement has uber clarity.
Col. 3:3 (NKJVS) For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
 
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Soyeong

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That leads to the question of how many good deeds are enough? Can I ever do enough good to be worthy of heaven? If I never do anything but die shortly after accepting Jesus, do I go to hell? No the overall theme in the New testament is all our righteousness comes from Christ, not what we do.

Our actions express our character traits, so to describe someone as courageous is to describe them as being someone who chooses to take actions that express courage, and it would be inaccurate to describe someone as courageous if they are someone who chooses not to act that way. In the same way to describe God as righteous is to communicate that He chooses to take actions that express righteousness, so when we are declared righteous by grace through faith, we are also being declared to be someone who chooses to take actions that express His righteousness in obedience His instructions for how to do that found in His law, while it would be inaccurate to declare someone to be righteous who choose not act that way. God's law does not describe the way to earn our righteousness as a wage by being good enough by rather it describes the life of someone who is righteous in the same way that it describes the life of Christ, and in the same way that it describes our life when we are imputed with his righteousness. For example, God's law instructs that it is righteous to help the poor, however, no amount of helping the poor will ever cause someone to earn their righteousness as a wage because the one and only way that there has ever been to become righteous is by grace through faith.

In Hebrews 1:3, Jesus is the exact expression of God's nature, so among other things, he is the personification of righteousness, so there is no righteousness apart from the nature of who he is and every righteous act in in obedience to God's law testifies about the nature of who he is. So the way to accept Jesus is by choosing by faith to do what is righteous express other aspects of his nature in obedience to God's law in accordance with the example that he set for us to follow.

In Matthew 11:28-30 and Jeremiah 6:16-19, God's law is described as the good way where we will find rest for our souls, however, thinking that our obedience to it is about needing to be good enough robs our souls of the rest that it is intended to give us because we will never know if what we had done is enough.
 
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Halbhh

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In the most basic terms for a child to understand, How hard or easy is it to get into heaven?
In other words, Is it easy to obtain salvation or is it hard for the joe shmoes of the world?
In a nutshell (in case it wasn't quoted yet above):

25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”

26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

------
So, to enter heaven, we learn from Christ, we have to follow Him, doing as He said we must do to enter heaven (and He taught this very explicitly).

But, we'd not be able to do as He said on our own, just from our own willpower. We'd fall short, often failing and eventually worse, on just our own willpower alone.

Instead, we are only able to do as He said by looking to Him, believing in Him, abiding in Him. And He promised that if we will believe in Him and abide in Him, then we will be able to produce the good outcomes ('fruit' from the Vine) He said we must.

So, we start by being humble enough to admit our wrongs, and that we need His help to be as we should be.
 
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Soyeong

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What I don't get about the law keepers is how they can't understand that it's impossible to keep the Mosaic law. There's no sacrificial system anymore. I bet they don't let thier sideburns grow or avoid mixed fabrics and shell fish either.

In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, God said that the Mosaic Law is not too difficult to keep and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as something that is impossible to keep, and believing that we can keep it as a matter of putting our faith in what God has said. The Israelites were given a number of laws while they were still wandering the wilderness for 40 years that had the condition "when you enter the land..." so there is nothing wrong with not following laws that don't have their conditions met. Laws in regard to temple practice require there to be a temple along with a presiding priesthood. When the Israelites were in exile in Babylon, the condition for their return to the land was to first return to obedience to God's law, which required them to have access to the temple that had just been destroyed, so when there are laws that don't have their conditions met, we should nevertheless be faithful to obey as much as we can.

Sin is defined as the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), God's law commands against marring the corners of our beard, against eating unclean animals, and against mixing wool and linen, so it is therefore a sin to do those things, and the NT instructs us to repent from our sins.

Galatians is so clear about the law being done away with but some just try and follow another law they invent. Wasn't Jesus enough?

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the nations, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel message. Furthermore, Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). So Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey the Law of Moses by word and by example and it would be absurd to interpret Galatians as if Paul were warning them against following Christ. Furthermore, in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so if we believe that what Jesus accomplished through his ministry and through the cross is enough, then we will become zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law (Acts 21:20).
 
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Soyeong

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Sorry, you are doing precisely what the Galatian Christians did. You get people saved, and then attempt to put them back under the law.
This part is close:
"In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while it denies that we can earn our salvation by our works lest anyone should boast, doing good works is nevertheless still an integral part of our salvation."

Paul spoke about multiple different categories of law other than the Law of God, such as works of the law and the law of sin, and while he spoke against those other categories of law, he was a servant of God who delighted in obeying His law (Romans 7:22), so he never spoke against anyone obeying it. For example, in Romans 3:27, he contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, and in Romans 7:25-8:2, he contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin and contrasted the Law of the Spirit of Life with the law of sin and death, so it is important to correctly identify which law he was saying that we aren't under. In Romans 6:14, Paul describe it as being a law where sin had dominion us over, which does not describe the Law of God, which is a law where holiness, righteousness, and goodness have dominion over us, but rather it is the law of sin where sin had dominion over us. In Romans 6:15, being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin, and sin is the transgression of the Law of God (1 John 3:4), so we are still under it, but are not under the law of sin. Furthermore, everything else in Romans 6 speaks in favor of obedience to God and against sin, such as 6:19-23, where we are no longer to present ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin, but are now to present ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, so Paul should not be interpreted as warning us against obeying what God has commanded as if obedience to God were somehow a negative thing.

However, the bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man, so when God has commanded something and you think that Paul was an enemy of God who spoke against obeying Him, then it should not be difficult to figure out who has the higher authority and which one we should follow. In other words, we should be quicker to disregard everything that Paul has said than to disregard anything that God has commanded, but the reality is that Paul was a servant of God who never spoke against anyone obeying anything that God has commanded, so it does not need to come down to that.

I agree that once a man is born again, he is then capable of walking in love. But if a man can be lost by the law after he is saved, then it can only be he is under the law and subject to the law.
For all intents and purposes, he has become a Jew. There is no practical difference between his walk, and the walk of an unconverted Jew.

Jesus is a Jew, so Christianity is a religion based on following what Christ taught by word and by example, so you should have no problems with living as a Jew, though that is not the same as becoming a Jew. Jesus did not come to start his own religion, but rather he was a Jew who set a perfect example of how to practice Judaism by living in sinless obedience to the Torah, and he came as the Jewish Messiah in fulfillment of Jewish prophecy. He spent his ministry teaching his followers how to practice Judaism by word and by example. In Acts 21:20, they were rejoicing that tens of thousand of Jews were coming to faith who were all zealous for Torah, which was in accordance with believing in what Jesus accomplished through the cross (Titus 2:14), so Jews coming to faith were not ceasing to obey it. This means that there was a period of time in between the resurrection of Jesus and the inclusion of Gentiles in Acts 10 that is estimated to be around 7-15 years during which Christianity was mainly composed of Torah observant Jews, so Christianity at its origin was the form of Judaism that recognized Jesus as its prophesied Messiah.

I think you are mistakenly equating "good works" with "the law." Yes, we all called to good works which are the natural result of a new nature. And yes, people should be commended for holiness and righteousness, but that is not what saved us.
Thank you for the discussion.

In 2 Timothy 3:15-17, Paul referred to Scriptures that Timothy had available to him since childhood and at the time of his childhood none of the books of the NT had yet been written, so he could have only been referring to the books of OT Scripture as being profitable for teaching, correction, reproof, training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped to do every good work. All of these descriptors are in regard to our code of conduct and the code of conduct in the OT is the Mosaic Law, so that is what he was primarily referring to, so it is God's instructions for how to do good works. For example, when Jesus said in Matthew 5:13-16 to let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven, they would not have understood that as referring to anything other than obeying the Mosaic Law.

While we do not earn our salvation by our good works as a wage, that does not mean that we are not saved by doing them because there are many verses that show that they are required, such as Romans 2:6-7, Romans 2:13, Romans 6:19-23, Ephesians 2:10, Titus 2:11-14, Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:25-28, James 2:17-14, Hebrews 5:9, and Revelation 22:14. So there must be a reason why our salvation requires us to choose to do good works other than in order to earn it as a wage, such as faith (Romans 3:31).
 
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Soyeong

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Looking for the term "messianic law" in the scripture.
Seaching... searching.... searching...
Nope. Cannot seem to find it. Perhaps it is from another version of the scripture?

What is is important is not whether a term is used in Scripture, but whether it refers to a concept that it refers to is found in Scripture, such as with the Trinity. In my last post, I establish that Christianity at its origin was the form of Judaism that recognized Jesus as the Messiah, so that is why we call it Messianic Judaism. In the Messianic Age, the religion that is will be practiced is likewise a form of Judaism that recognizes Jesus as the Messiah.

Re: Including the Law in the Gospel.
Usually, I let most things slide. Not this one. Paul wrote Galatians to counter this exact error. The Epistle to the Hebrews is a massive repudiation of going back under the law. I hope those following this thread can take the time to review these important books in the Scriptures!
Blessing and peace to all. In the name of Jesus!

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel message, which he prophesied would be proclaimed to all nations (Matthew 24:12-14). So do you think that Paul was warning Gentiles against following the Gospel of Christ?

Acts 2:38, when Peter called for his audience to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins, the Mosaic Law was again how they knew what sin is. In Romans 15:4, Paul said that OT Scripture was written for our instruction, and in 15:18-19, his Gospel involved bringing Gentiles to full obedience in word and in deed, so his Gospel was on the same page in regard to teaching repentance from our sins, and you should not interpret Paul as speaking against his own Gospel. Paul's problem in Galatians was not with those who were teaching Gentiles how to follow Christ, but with those who were wanting to require Gentiles to obey their works of the law in order to become justified. The bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man, so if you insist that Galatians and Hebrews are speaking against obeying God, then you should be quicker to reject them as not being Scripture than to disregard anything that God has commanded, though the reality is that Paul was a servant of God who never spoke against anyone obeying anything that God has commanded. In Romans 7:22, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Law of God, so you should not interpret him as speaking against doing what he delighted in doing.
 
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fhansen

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what does falling away refer to ?after falling away they cannot return to repentance... thats a fine verse. scary
Along with the other verses in my post, it certainly shows the seriousness of sin after coming to faith, and that a believer can fall away. The early church understood this seriousness and, partially because of such passages, it was held that there was no hope for a believer after committing grave sin, "sin that leads to death".

However, in the first or second century Calistus, the bishop of Rome, ruled that this was a misunderstanding, that, knowing God's mercy and desire for all to be saved, all sin is forgivable with a truly changed and repentant heart, and that person could be reconciled and restored back to the fold. This was highly controversial back in that day, but became the norm in all of Christianity in the ensuing years.

Now we have the opposite issue due to novel gospels. Some theologies understand Sola Fide to mean that we're justified as long as we believe we're justified. IOW, as long as we believe that our sins have been forgiven due to Crist's sacrifice on the cross, then they are forgiven- kind of like having faith in our faith, sometimes called "fiduciary faith". Either way this notion serves to extract the righteousness straight out of righteousness. Actual righteousness is no longer necessary in order for a person to be righteous. Forgiveness of sin is all that matters, not the overcoming of it. Ridiculous.
 
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