What is the difficulty of getting into heaven?

SavedByGrace3 said:

All this is after the fact. This is the normal Christian life. This is walking in the spirit.
The obedience that causes us to receive the Spirit is to believe the Gospel.

“Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?” (Gal 3:2). The answer was obvious: They received the Spirit by faith, by accepting what they heard.

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Again, in Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God, so obedience to God is part of the way to receive the Spirit, while Galatians 3:1-2 denies that works of the law are part of the way to receive the Spirit, therefore work of the law are not in obedience to God and that phrase does not refer to the Law of God. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7) and a law that isn't trustworthy can't come from a God who is trustworthy, so to rely on the Law of God is to rely on God while to deny that the Law of God is of faith is to deny the faithfulness of God, so it is works of the law that are not of faith, not the Law of God, which our faith upholds (Romans 3:31). There is a curse for not relying on the Law of God, so those who instead rely on works of the law come under that cruse. Paul's problem in Galatians was not with those who were teaching Gentiles how to obey the Law of God as if obedience to God was somehow a negative thing or as if God should not be trusted to guide us through His law, but rather rather his problem was with those who were wanting to require Gentiles to obey their works of the law in order to become justified. Likewise, Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey the Law of God by word and by example and Galatians should not be interpreted as speaking against following Christ.

fhansen said:

Well, that would really just be the puppet master's choice in that case.

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Nevertheless, it's the only choice Scripture presents (1 Corinthians 2:14; Romans 8:7-8; John 3:3), man's reasoning and objection not-with-standing.

Handmaid for Jesus said:

Why did all of them not receive Him? They kept the law.

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The fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God's nature, the Bible often uses the same terms to describe aspects of God's nature as it does to describe aspects of the nature of God's law, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), and God's law could not be accurately described as such if it were not His instructions for how to express those aspects of His nature, or in other words, for how to bear those fruits. However, God's law can be in obeyed in a manner that neglects to the express aspects of God's nature that it was intended to teach us how to express, such as in Matthew 23:23, where Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to do while not neglecting weightier matters of the law of justice, mercy, and faithfulness.

The way that we live expresses what we believe to be true about the nature of who God is, so when we do what is righteous in obedience to God's law, we are expressing the belief that God is righteous, or in other words, we a believing in Him, which is why there are many verses that connect our belief in God with our obedience to Him or that connect our unbelief with our disobedience, so yes, I agree that it is those who are being taught to express the fruits of the Spirit in obedience to God's law who are believers.

Soyeong said:

When you interpret Romans 13:8-10 as excluding other parts of Scripture,

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Romans 13:8-10 by its nature includes all Scripture. . .as being fulfilled by it.

It's not complicated.

Soyeong said:

Again, in Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God, so obedience to God is part of the way to receive the Spirit, while Galatians 3:1-2 denies that works of the law are part of the way to receive the Spirit, therefore work of the law are not in obedience to God and that phrase does not refer to the Law of God. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7) and a law that isn't trustworthy can't come from a God who is trustworthy, so to rely on the Law of God is to rely on God while to deny that the Law of God is of faith is to deny the faithfulness of God, so it is works of the law that are not of faith, not the Law of God, which our faith upholds (Romans 3:31). There is a curse for not relying on the Law of God, so those who instead rely on works of the law come under that cruse. Paul's problem in Galatians was not with those who were teaching Gentiles how to obey the Law of God as if obedience to God was somehow a negative thing or as if God should not be trusted to guide us through His law, but rather rather his problem was with those who were wanting to require Gentiles to obey their works of the law in order to become justified. Likewise, Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey the Law of God by word and by example and Galatians should not be interpreted as speaking against following Christ.

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I am sorry, but what you are saying is simply contrary to the NT, Jesus, the Gospel, Salvation by grace through faith, and Romans 3:

Romans 3:21-22
21. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22. Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Do you believe that Jesus is Lord and Christ, and that salvation is only in His name? No law can or will save you. That law was intended to show you that you cannot obey it and please God.

renniks said:

Yes, it is narrow because there's only one way to enter. Of course there's fake Christians so the numbers aren't completely accurate. If Jesus said he never knew them it's because they were trying to get in another way, in fact that passage indicates they were relying on their works for salvation.

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There can be any number of reasons for doing works, and while there are many verses that speak against earning our salvation by our works, there are also many verses that speak in favor of our salvation requiring our works. For example, while Paul denied in Romans 4:4-5 that we can earn our justification by our works as a wage, he also said in Romans 2:13 that only doers of the law will be justified, so there is a reason why our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than for the goal of earning it as a wage, such as faith insofar as Romans 3:31 says that our faith upholds God's law. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so to obediently rely on what God has instructed in His law for salvation is to rely on God for salvation, so the the problem was not that they were relying on what God had instructed for salvation, but that they were not. Again, Jesus said in Matthew 7:21-23 that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven and that he would tell those who are works of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the problem was not that they were obedient relying on God will by obeying His law.

Aww! I thought you had it.

servant7777 said:

There is no condemnation for those who walk after the Spirit, ( who are in Christ Jesus)

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That is backward.

Soyeong said:

Again, Jesus said in Matthew 7:21-23 that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven and that he would tell those who are works of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the problem was not that they were obedient relying on God will by obeying His law.

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What is God's will?

And this is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. 1 John 3:23 (NASB)

And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved. Acts 4:12 (NASB)

John 6:40 NASBS
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.

I'm not saying we should not do good. Of course we should whenever we can. But we don't rely on our good deeds for salvation.

renniks said:

What is God's will?

And this is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. 1 John 3:23 (NASB)

And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved. Acts 4:12 (NASB)

John 6:40 NASBS
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.

I'm not saying we should not do good. Of course we should whenever we can. But we don't rely on our good deeds for salvation.

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In Matthew 7:23, it contrasts doing God's will with those who are workers of lawlessness, so we don't need to jump to other books in order to recognize that God has made His will known through what He has commanded. Are you seriously arguing that God has not made His will known through what He has commanded?

In any case, God's law is His instructions for how to believe in Jesus, which is why there are many verses that connect our belief in God with our obedience to Him commandments or that connect our unbelief with our disobedience. For example, in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law. In Romans 3:31, our faith upholds God's law. In John 3:36, believing in Jesus is equated with obeying him. In James 2:18, he would show his faith by his works. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments. In Hebrews 11, every example of faith is an example of works. In Hebrews 3:18-19, unbelief is equated with disobedience. In Numbers 5:6, disobedience is described as breaking faith.

In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that they way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments, in Romans 2:6-7, those who persist in doing good will be given eternal life. In Hebrews 5:9, Jesus is the source of eternal salvation for those who obey him. In Luke 10:25-28, obedience to the greatest two commandments is the way to inherit eternal life. In Romans 6:19-23, no longer presenting ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin is contrasted with now presenting ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so obedience to God's law is the content of His gift of eternal life. Obedience to God's law being required to enter eternal life connected with John 6:40 means that obedience to God's law is also the content of what it means to believe in the Son. While we don't need to rely in doing good deeds to earn our entrance to eternal life as a wage, entering eternal life nevertheless requires us to choose to do them.

SavedByGrace3 said:

I am sorry, but what you are saying is simply contrary to the NT, Jesus, the Gospel, Salvation by grace through faith, and Romans 3:

Romans 3:21-22
21. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22. Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

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According to Romans 3:21-22, the only way to become righteous that is testified about in the Law and the Prophets is through faith in Christ. In Psalms 119:29-30, David wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him His way that he might know Him and Israel too, in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through His law, and in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Jesus, which again is the only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God, he was a righteous man, and he walked with God, so he was declared righteous by grace through faith by the same means as Abraham (Genesis 15:6) and everyone else. God had no reason to provide an alternative an unobtainable means of earning our salvation by obeying His law when a perfectly good means was already in place, so that was never the goal of the law that it testified about.

In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while it denies that we can earn our salvation by our works lest anyone should boast, doing good works is nevertheless still an integral part of our salvation. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith, and in Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to do this works is itself part of the content of His gift of salvation. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we do not earn our salvation as a wage, living in obedience to it is nevertheless inherently the content of the gift of Jesus saving us from not living in obedience to it.

In Matthew 4:17-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and God's law is how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel message. In Acts 2:38, when Peter called for his audience to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sin, God's law was again how they knew what sin is. Likewise, in Romans 15:4, Paul said that OT Scripture was written for our instruction, and in 15:18-19, his Gospel involved bring Gentiles to obedience in word and in deed. Furthermore, Romans 10:16, 2 Thessalonians 1:8, and 1 Peter 4:17 all speak against those who do not obey the Gospel, so I am teaching the same Gospel as them.

Here are some verses that speak against earning our salvation/eternal life as a wage: Romans 3:27, Romans 4:4-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Galatians 2:21, and Galatians 3:21.

Here are some verses that show that obedience to God's law is required for salvation/eternal life: Romans 2:6-7, Romans 2:13, Romans 6:19-23, Ephesians 2:10, Titus 2:11-14, Galatians 3:26-29, Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:25-28, James 2:17-24, Hebrews 5:9 and Revelation 22:14.

So the issue is that there must be a reason why our salvation requires us to choose to obey God's law other than in order to earn it as wage, such as faith insofar as Romans 3:31 says that our faith upholds God's law. In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments, in John 6:40, those who believe in the Son will be given eternal life, so obedience to God's commandments is the way to believe in the Son.

Do you believe that Jesus is Lord and Christ, and that salvation is only in His name? No law can or will save you.

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While I believe that Jesus Lord is the Christ and that salvation is only is his name, we need to unpack what that means. In Psalms 119:142, God's law is truth, in Psalms 119:160, the sum of God's word is truth, and in John 1:14, the word of God became flesh and dwelt among us, so Jesus is God's law, the truth, and the word made flesh, which is evidenced by the fact that he set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to it, which is also what he was claiming what he said that he is the truth (John 14:6). In Hebrews 1:3, the Son is the exact expression of God's nature, so he is the personification of God's nature expressed through God's law, or the physical manifestation of the law, so obedience to the law of which he is the living embodiment is the way to believe in the nature of who he is, or in other words the way to believe in him. The way that we live expresses what we believe to be true about the nature of who God is, which is why there are many verses that connect our belief in God with our obedience to His commands, such as Revelation 14:12, where those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who obey God's commandments. Likewise, all of God's names reveal aspects of God's nature, and obediently expressing God's nature is the one only way of salvation in His name.

That law was intended to show you that you cannot obey it and please God.

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Nowhere does the Bible state this, but just the opposite. In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, God said that His law is not too difficult to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! Thinking that we can't obey it would mean that God essentially gave the law with the goal of cursing His children, which would be expressing an extremely negative view of God when in reality His law was given for our own good in order to bless us (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13). Likewise, in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, which are not burdensome, so to deny that we can obey it is to deny that anyone has ever loved God and to deny that it is not burdensome. Furthermore, the Bible records examples of people who did keep God's law, such as in Joshua 25:1-3 and Luke 1:5-6. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are all people who kept God's commandments, and in Revelation 22:14, it is those who kept God's commandments who are given access to the Tree of Life. All throughout the Bible, the way to displease God is by disobeying His commandments, not by obeying them.

mndgn.j said:

so when you have perfect love ultimately it comes from the holy spirit of God living in you and producing the fruits of the spirit.

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Exactly! It is the Holy Spirit in us that produce His fruit. Now sin lives in the flesh which is perishing.
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

mndgn.j said:

dang I didnt realize thats what the messianic law is

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Jesus saves us from the law! Our Father knew mankind could not keep it! That is why He came in the flesh, kept the law perfectly, died for the ungodly, was raised from death,ascended back to Heaven, and sent back the Comforter, the Spirit of truth. If ANYONE believes this they are saved. It is very simple. Don't make it hard. It is hard for those who try to keep the law on their own.

Handmaid for Jesus said:

Jesus saves us from the law! Our Father knew mankind could not keep it! That is why He came in the flesh, kept the law perfectly, died for the ungodly, was raised from death,ascended back to Heaven, and sent back the Comforter, the Spirit of truth. If ANYONE believes this they are saved. It is very simple. Don't make it hard. It is hard for those who try to keep the law on their own.

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In Matthew 1:21, our salvation is from sin, in 1 John 3:4, sin is the transgression of God's law, so living in obedience to it is inherently part of the content of the gift of Jesus saving us from not living in obedience to it. So our salvation is from from the law, but rather it is from sin, which is living in transgression of it so that we can be free to live in obedience to it. It is bizarre that people want the gift of salvation, but don't want the content of that gift.

The Bible frequently connects our belief with our obedience to God's law. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so to rely on the law that God instructed for salvation is to rely on God for salvation, so God's law was never intended to be something that we keep on our own apart from relying on Him. If I got lost and asked someone for directions then I would be relying on them to save me from being lost by obediently following their instructions and thinking that by doing that I was acting on my own to save myself from being lost would not be giving credit where it is due.

In Deuteronomy 30:11-16, God said that His law is not too difficult for us to keep, and in Romans 10:5-10, our faith references that passage in affirming that it is not too difficult to keep. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so if we believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross, then we will become zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law (Acts 21:20) and will not return to the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from. Likewise, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

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