An answer to this question

childeye 2 · Aug 2, 2022

wendykvw said:
Exactly. But you must understand how we take for granted what we know as truth. It is essential to empathize with those who are troubled and need assurance of God's love.

As I said, I hear you, and I'm totally with you about that. But in reality, wherever I'm preaching Christ, I'm confronting spiritual powers of darkness in high places who hold people captive through deception, and those spirits and lies pervert empathy in those people. Just like in that cartoon. It takes practice and patience and guidance from the Holy Spirit to discern the lies and articulate the Truth in a way that reveals why and how they are false. It should never become personal, because that's what the enemy wants.

wendykvw · Aug 2, 2022

Soyeong said:
Some people want to criticize God for not acting to stop injustice while also criticizing him for enacting justice, so there is just no pleasing them. Even if you could convince them to agree with every decision that God is reported to have made in the Bible, then they still wouldn't believe that God exists, so it is all a smoke screen. If the God that someone worships would never do anything that they disagree with, then they might just be worshiping an idealized form of themselves.

Yes, this may be the case. If eternal conscience torment is true, they most likely will find it contradictory that God is full of love, mercy and grace.

wendykvw · Aug 2, 2022

childeye 2 said:
I'm totally with you about that. But in reality, wherever I'm preaching Christ, I'm confronting spiritual powers of darkness in high places who hold people captive through deception, and those spirits and lies pervert empathy. Just like in that cartoon.

Can you provide and example?

PloverWing · Aug 2, 2022

wendykvw said:
Right he is a theist as far as I know. The cartoon appeals to non theism was my point.

Okay, that makes sense.

I'd give a similar invitation to atheists. (I have, in fact, given this kind of invitation to an atheist friend that I'm in conversation with.) Sit with the question for a while, maybe for a long while. "There is no God" is one possible answer to the puzzle, but it's not the only answer. Beware of answers that are too simple.

wendykvw · Aug 2, 2022

PloverWing said:
Okay, that makes sense.

I'd give a similar invitation to atheists. (I have, in fact, given this kind of invitation to an atheist friend that I'm in conversation with.) Sit with the question for a while, maybe for a long while. "There is no God" is one possible answer to the puzzle, but it's not the only answer. Beware of answers that are too simple.

Let me see if I understand what you wrote. You have asked an atheist to contemplate that there is no God?

childeye 2 · Aug 2, 2022

wendykvw said:
Can you provide and example?

Examples of perverted empathy: Hatred, anger and distrust due to betrayal. Cynicism, unforgiveness, and even cruelty.

PloverWing · Aug 2, 2022

wendykvw said:
Let me see if I understand what you wrote. You have asked an atheist to contemplate that there is no God?

This particular atheist was raised in a Christian family and church. Part of their objection to Christianity is the difficulty in proving the existence of God, and that's its own discussion. But part is the conflict they see between Christianity's assertion that God is good (on the one hand) and some of the difficult passages in the Bible and difficult theological ideas in Christianity (on the other). Alas, my friend's journey has been assisted by some YouTube videos created by simplistic Christians and simplistic atheists. I've been encouraging my friend to avoid reading the Scriptures too superficially and to avoid dismissing religious ideas too quickly. The conflict in Christianity isn't just a simple contradiction, like in a reductio ad absurdum proof; it's more a tension between different ideas that only imperfectly capture the nature of God and the world. Look beyond the words to the ideas, and look beyond the ideas to the realities that the ideas are meant to describe. Religious philosophy is complicated; sometimes it's wrong, but it isn't simple or stupid, and it doesn't deserve to be dismissed quickly.

com7fy8 · Aug 2, 2022

wendykvw said:
This is how the non theist world views Christianity. How would you answer?

First, God had hope for the kids to love. But they were doing much more evil, than children acting crazy in the house.

And we see how some nice religious people were fine with hating and torturing and murdering God's own Son. So . . . I would say God knew the hearts of the ones who died in the flood. And if anyone goes to the fire, God will know the person's real character, including what that person would have done if he or she was with those respectable religious ones . . . who said >

"His blood be on us and on our children." (in Mathew 27:25)

Jesus made the sacrifice to forgive such people. And Jesus prayed >

"Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do." (in Luke 23:34)

Daniel9v9 · Aug 2, 2022

Ask him where Jesus is in this. Then you'll quickly realise how erroneous the idea the illustration is making.

wendykvw · Aug 2, 2022

PloverWing said:
This particular atheist was raised in a Christian family and church. Part of their objection to Christianity is the difficulty in proving the existence of God, and that's its own discussion. But part is the conflict they see between Christianity's assertion that God is good (on the one hand) and some of the difficult passages in the Bible and difficult theological ideas in Christianity (on the other). Alas, my friend's journey has been assisted by some YouTube videos created by simplistic Christians and simplistic atheists. I've been encouraging my friend to avoid reading the Scriptures too superficially and to avoid dismissing religious ideas too quickly. The conflict in Christianity isn't just a simple contradiction, like in a reductio ad absurdum proof; it's more a tension between different ideas that only imperfectly capture the nature of God and the world. Look beyond the words to the ideas, and look beyond the ideas to the realities that the ideas are meant to describe. Religious philosophy is complicated; sometimes it's wrong, but it isn't simple or stupid, and it doesn't deserve to be dismissed quickly.

I agree with you not to dismiss your friends objections or road blocks. God does not dismiss anyone, nor should we. It is essential as you know to love your friend where they are at, and pray that they will continue to seek answers. It sounds as if you are making progress. Thanks for sharing.

wendykvw · Aug 2, 2022

Daniel9v9 said:
Ask him where Jesus is in this. Then you'll quickly realise how erroneous the idea the illustration is making.

Are you familiar with naked Pastor. He is both an artist and Pastor. He creates cartoons, mainly to cause people of faith to dig deeper and understand the worldview of those we minister to.

wendykvw · Aug 2, 2022

com7fy8 said:
First, God had hope for the kids to love. But they were doing much more evil, than children acting crazy in the house.

And we see how some nice religious people were fine with hating and torturing and murdering God's own Son. So . . . I would say God knew the hearts of the ones who died in the flood. And if anyone goes to the fire, God will know the person's real character, including what that person would have done if he or she was with those respectable religious ones . . . who said >

"His blood be on us and on our children." (in Mathew 27:25)

Jesus made the sacrifice to forgive such people. And Jesus prayed >

"Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do." (in Luke 23:34)

God is fully aware of our condition. Grace covers the good, bad and ugly.

SabbathBlessings · Aug 2, 2022

wendykvw said:
The whole point is if you stand back and look from a non Christian pov. Be advised this is the view that this generation has about the biblical account. And we as Christians need to be mindful of this mindset.

I think you are forgetting something really important and that is God is not going to force anyone to love or obey Him. It is not God's will that anyone should perish, but it's the choices we make by not loving God and obeying what He asks of His children that lets go of God.

We are either a slave to God or a slave to sin- either with God or against Him. This world right now is only a test, the second life is what matters and the choices we make determines which path we are on. These types of cartoons demonize our God and makes it seem like its God choice when it's really the choices we make.

wendykvw · Aug 2, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
I think you are forgetting something really important and that is God is not going to force anyone to love or obey Him. It is not God's will that anyone should perish, but it's the choices we make by not loving God and obeying what He asks of His children that lets go of God.

We are either a slave to God or a slave to sin- either with God or against Him. This world right now is only a test, the second life is what matters and the choices we make determines which path we are on. These types of cartoons demonize our God and makes it seem like its God choice when it's really the choices we make.

I can understand your point of view as well. I empathize with both people of faith and non people of faith.

SabbathBlessings · Aug 2, 2022

wendykvw said:
I can understand your point of view as well. I empathize with both people of faith and non people of faith.

I agree I empathize with a lot of people as well and we all should feel so blessed that God loves us so much that He provided us the manual, His Holy Bible to lead us to the path to eternal life.

Llleopard · Aug 2, 2022

My son sends me memes like this fairly often. I remind him that until he actually reads the Bible he's only seeing one point of view, and that if he wants a proper answer to that kind of accusation about my God, I will gladly give him one. But he's just not interested in anything that doesn't reinforce his bias and anger yet. Keep praying.

wendykvw · Aug 2, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
I agree I empathize with a lot of people as well and we all should feel so blessed that God loves us so much that He provided us the manual, His Holy Bible to lead us to the path to eternal life.

Yes, I agree with you. Here is the issue with many who have been abused by members of the Christian faith, they have been traumatized by Priests, deacons, bishops, their parents who were Christians etc etc. In other words let's not write off people just because they need our patience and love. Empathy and a gentle answer.1 Peter 3:15. Bible thumping is not helpful.

SabbathBlessings · Aug 2, 2022

wendykvw said:
. In other words let's not write off people just because they need our patience and love. Empathy and a gentle answer.1 Peter 3:15. Bible thumping is not helpful.

Wow, I’m not sure how you came to that conclusion but it appears you did exactly what you are telling others to not do.

Encouraging people to study the Word of God is not bible thumping. Not sure what you’re talking about to be honest.

wendykvw said:
.
Yes, I agree with you. Here is the issue with many who have been abused by members of the Christian faith, they have been traumatized by Priests, deacons, bishops, their parents who were Christians etc etc.

There are a lot of people that are is sad situations which is why we should encourage people to have a relationship with Jesus through reading His Word- teaching people things that are not biblical may be sweet for a season, but we should be teaching people the path to eternal life. The Bible is God’s Word to us and we are blessed we don’t need a mediator if seeking Jesus with all of our hearts as He is the door and through Him and His teaching we can receive eternal life where there will be no more sorrows, if we have faith to believe what He asks of us.

wendykvw · Aug 2, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
Wow, I’m not sure how you came to that conclusion but it appears you did exactly what you are telling others to not do.

Encouraging people to study the Word of God is not bible thumping. Not sure what you’re talking about to be honest.

Bible thumping is when you use the Bible to hurt others and condemn them without any attempt to understand their sorrows or pain. It is a self righteous attitude..

SabbathBlessings · Aug 2, 2022

wendykvw said:
Bible thumping is when you use the Bible to hurt others and condemn them without any attempt to understand their sorrows or pain. It is a self righteous attitude..

That’s why we shouldn’t do that and not sure why you would consider Bible thumping is encouraging people to study the Word of God for themselves. To be honest its a rather odd comment if one is truly wanting people to seek God’s Truth, which is what scripture calls us to John 4:23-24

Only God is righteous and all righteousness comes from Him. Which is why we should have faith in the things He asks of us and that they are for our own good and not depend on what we think is right (the true definition of self-righteous). Having a relationship with God though His Word should never be discouraged. We are all accountable for what we teach others. Matthew 5:19

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