the prince who shall come

Douggg

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If you say the 70th week is the future AC, you negate the 70th week in which Messiah was cut off in.
7 weeks + 62 weeks unto messiah. Jesus arrived in Jerusalem, as the messiah, John 12:12-15.

4 days later, Jesus was cutoff at the end of 69 weeks (62 + 7). It was not three and half years into the 70th week.

The 70th week is not a person, but a timeframe full of end times bible prophecy events.
 
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claninja

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"And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him: and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint to desolations."

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

"And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in it and it shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint [the city] to desolations."

The anointed is not the it in your posted version. "Most likely" does not cut it in grammar. Now the anointed could be an it. So could "be destroyed". There was no judgment in the point of Messiah being destroyed. Yet God would use the Cross as the means of the destruction of Jerusalem. How? The prince that shall come. Not sure how you can avoid that point in all 3 translations.

With the prince that is coming

The people (of the prince) shall.

With the prince that is coming

What was the reason God allowed Jerusalem to be destroyed? You are still back to the anointed. So God used the prince to come because He was the anointed one.

That was already pointed out in verse 25:

"unto the Messiah the Prince"

Also the first example is clearer as I pointed out. Jesus did not pronounce judgment on those who crucified Him that day. Yet they pronounced a curse on themselves and their offspring that day on the point they were shedding innocent blood. We know that Jesus arose triumphant as King. We know He was innocent. It is still the point His people were the reason Jerusalem was destroyed.

There is no judgment in Him.

But not for Himself

There is no judgment in it.

Jesus did not judge them for crucifying Him. The point was to be the Atonement. The default answer is because they rejected Him. Some will point out that it was the destruction to end the daily sacrifices, except that ended at the Cross.

We know the Jews tried to revolt and over throw the Romans. All they got in return was death and destruction. I guess we will never know if they had just left things alone, and never revolted.

Your claim is that the Prince cannot be the Anointed one, but you base that on the word "it". The Anointed one cannot be the "it" in your translation. The judgment of the Cross was the "it". God planned for the Cross, and Jesus knew their Temple would be destroyed. Jesus did not prophecy that destruction out of revenge and retaliation for the Cross. The Anointed one is the Him in the other translation. The Anointed one was still condemned to the Cross by His own people. The Anointed one is still the King to come because of the Resurrection. God allowed the people to revolt, and never stopped Rome from coming and destroying Jerusalem. There is still a reasonable explanation that God is both the Christ and the King through the person of Jesus no matter which translation you use. There is also no reason whatsoever to pin this on Rome, even though Rome carried out the crucifixion and the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. God planned for the Cross, and God knew and allowed the event of 70AD. 70AD was not a planned event nor destruction by God. It was just the outcome of the Jews attempting to revolt against Rome. God did point out that the Jews did curse themselves in their bitter hatred of Jesus. Jesus also forgave them. Obviously that was not enough to overcome their continued bad decision making with the Roman occupation.

i have no idea what you are talking g about….
 
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claninja

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Well, I do find this very interesting, particularly because *both versions* agree with my interpretation of this particular passage--after going round and round for many years on it. I do understand the difficulty.

My current view is that after 69 weeks the Anointed One is to be cut off, and the Roman general (generic) will come to destroy Jerusalem and the temple (70 AD). What makes this interpretation easier for me is the fact Jesus based his Olivet Discourse on this particular understanding, apparently. And both versions agree with it.

It is difficult, but can be figured out, I think. What makes it more difficult is when particular views that are wrong become popular, then getting the truth across becomes almost an exercise in futility--nobody likes to be corrected unless they're more servants of God than of themselves.

Mind you, I'm just stating my view here, after having changed my views of Daniel a number of times over the decades. But I do find that people are not very friendly when it comes to proposing something that it not of the popular prophetic view.

i think that based on all the different textual variants of Daniel 9:26, it’s at least clear that a ruler or governor comes to destroy the city and sanctuary of Jerusalem.

from the New Testament, it’s made even clearer as to why the city and sanctuary are destroyed: for crucifying Christ and killing the servants of God.

Matthew 21:37-41 “They will respect my son.’ 38But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.’ 39And they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. 40When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” 41They said to him, “He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons”

Matthew 22:6-7 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

Matthew 23:35-36 35so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah,f whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Luke 19:43-44 For the days will come upon you, when your enemies will set up a barricade around you and surround you and hem you in on every side 44and tear you down to the ground, you and your children within you. And they will not leave one stone upon another in you, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

Luke 21:20-23 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. 23Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people.
 
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RandyPNW

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i think that based on all the different textual variants of Daniel 9:26, it’s at least clear that a ruler or governor comes to destroy the city and sanctuary of Jerusalem.

from the New Testament, it’s made even clearer as to why the city and sanctuary are destroyed: for crucifying Christ and killing the servants of God.

Matthew 21:37-41 “They will respect my son.’ 38But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.’ 39And they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. 40When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” 41They said to him, “He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons”

Matthew 22:6-7 while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. 7The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

Matthew 23:35-36 35so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah,f whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Luke 19:43-44 For the days will come upon you, when your enemies will set up a barricade around you and surround you and hem you in on every side 44and tear you down to the ground, you and your children within you. And they will not leave one stone upon another in you, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

Luke 21:20-23 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. 23Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people.

100% agreed. My own difficulty was with figuring out all of the pronouns surrounding this king and the Messiah. I've had a number of different views, and was affected, naturally, by the more popular views today.

However, I often find deeper assurance by resorting to older commentaries and the early Church Fathers. None of them are perfect, of course. But what's new under the sun? Did God really wait for you and I to come along and figure it out for the Church? ;)

So much of what can be said about it has already been said, except that some things do obtain more relevance the nearer things get to the culmination of all these things. In this case, however, we're never told this is eschatology, ie in ch. 9.

Rather, we're told this is about the temple and Jerusalem, and about their destruction by the Abomination of Desolation, which I believe is the Roman general. And I don't think there should be much debate that Luke 21 indicates this very thing. And Luke 21, therefore, explains Matt 24 and Mark 13, which say the same things somewhat differently, because they all represent the same Discourse!

So here are the pronouns I'm talking about...

Dan 9.25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, (1) there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death (2) and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. (3) The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ (4) In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. (5) And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him." (6)

Currently, my theory is that...
CHRIST
1) "until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes" is Christ, which is a major focus of the prophecy, promising that 6 things will be accomplished at this time, terminating Jewish lawlessness and providing a means of forgiveness.
2) "the Anointed One will be put to death" is Christ's crucifixion by the Romans.

THE ROMAN GENERAL
3) "The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary" represent the coming of the Roman general with his army to destroy Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD.
4) "He will confirm a covenant with many for one seven" indicates the Roman general (the office--not a specific person) indirectly supports Christ's earthly ministry in the final and 70th Week, regardless of whether the full "Week" is completed. The ministry and death of Christ confirmed God's aim, under the Law, of providing a lasting sacrifice for sin. The Roman general "confirms" Christ's covenant simply by exercising authority and control over Israel during the time of Christ's ministry. It does not appear to be a "peace treaty," as is often suggested.
5) "In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering," ie, in the middle of the 70th Week the Roman general will somehow terminate sacrifices and offerings under the Law, which I believe took place via the crucifixion of Christ. This happened after 3.5 years of Christ's earthly ministry, and ended the 70th Week in its middle. If the Roman general confirmed the covenant of Christ's earthly ministry for 3.5 years, he also completed the Week by crucifying Christ in the "middle of the Week."
6) "At the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him" indicates what Christ said in his Olivet Discourse, that in his generation the Roman armies would surround Jerusalem and ultimate destroy both Jerusalem and the temple. The "end" to be poured out upon the Roman general may actually refer to the end of Roman Civilization at the return of Christ because Christ said the act of destroying the temple and Jerusalem in his generation would lead to an age of Jewish Tribulation, ending only at the end of the age. That's when I think Roman Civilization will be finally and fully punished.

Roman Civilization, aka European Civilization, is much like Israel herself. Israel was given the greatest gift, to know the true God and to have His Law, by which they could be blessed. In the same way, when Israel finally came to a full failure under the covenant of Law, God gave His New Covenant to Roman Civilization, resulting in tremendous blessing through the centuries. But like Israel, European Civilization is falling and will be fully judged.

Sorry I'm so long with this. As I said, for me this is an interesting subject, and I've been studying it and reading about it for a long time. And certainly the translations and original languages play into its interpretation--not easy.
 
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Trivalee

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Some time ago, I tried to figure out the Daniel's prophecy. The deeper in textual variants I got, the more impossible the task has become.

Even if I selected one specific textual variant, it could be translated and understood in so many ways.

Thats why I concluded it cannot be critical for our life today, because the message is not preserved clearly. I believe it has already been fulfilled and we can study it for historical reasons, if we wish.
How wrong you are! You can't conclude that it has been fulfilled just because you are unable to unravel its meaning.
 
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Trivalee

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Antichrist--who is only in Dan 7--not in Dan 8, 9, or 11, may or may not have Jewish blood in him. But I agree with you--he will likely be a Gentile. I believe he arises out of the "Roman Kingdom," which is the 4th Kingdom mentioned in Dan 2 and 7.

Coming out of Europe, Antichrist will be a Gentile. And there have been some obvious forerunners of him in European tradition, those coming out of Christian lands and yet opposing the Christian Church--men like Napoleon, Hitler, and Stalin. I believe Antichrist will come via this Gentile tradition, emerging from a post-Christian society to try to destroy the Church.
Absolutely on point.
 
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trophy33

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How wrong you are! You can't conclude that it has been fulfilled just because you are unable to unravel its meaning.
Actually, I said "Thats why I concluded it cannot be critical for our life today".

Indeed, its not the only evidence for its fulfillment. But if you are unable to decide what should be fulfilled, then whats the point of writing modern books and forum threads about it.
 
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Trivalee

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Actually, I said "Thats why I concluded it cannot be critical for our life today".

Indeed, its not the only evidence for its fulfillment. But if you are unable to decide what should be fulfilled, then whats the point of writing modern books and forum threads about it.
I got you the first time and still believe you're wrong because the prophecies are critical in our time to prepare us (or at least those that will live at that time) for the end of the age when it will all be fulfilled. There is no error with God: these prophecies are shrouded in allegories for a reason. The fact it is "not preserved" in plain language doesn't make it any less the revelation of God's eschatological plans.

God told Daniel that "the words are closed and sealed till the time of the end", ie, the end of the age.

Daniel 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

What this implies is that the closer we get to the end of the age, God will gradually give believers the discernment to figure it all out to enable us to recognise the events as they unfold. For example, our understanding of end-time prophecies today is a whole lot better than those of believers that lived say, 500 years ago. If the Lord doesn't return soon, believers 100 years from today will understand these prophecies even better than us as they are closer to their fulfilment than us.

So if you don't understand it now, don't beat yourself up. Just trust God and one day, you'll open your bible and find you suddenly understood a text or prophecy you've hitherto struggled with in the past. Understanding is the work of the Holy Spirit.
 
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trophy33

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I got you the first time and still believe you're wrong because the prophecies are critical in our time to prepare us (or at least those that will live at that time) for the end of the age when it will all be fulfilled. There is no error with God: these prophecies are shrouded in allegories for a reason. The fact it is "not preserved" in plain language doesn't make it any less the revelation of God's eschatological plans.

God told Daniel that "the words are closed and sealed till the time of the end", ie, the end of the age.

Daniel 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

What this implies is that the closer we get to the end of the age, God will gradually give believers the discernment to figure it all out to enable us to recognise the events as they unfold. For example, our understanding of end-time prophecies today is a whole lot better than those of believers that lived say, 500 years ago. If the Lord doesn't return soon, believers 100 years from today will understand these prophecies even better than us as they are closer to their fulfilment than us.

So if you don't understand it now, don't beat yourself up. Just trust God and one day, you'll open your bible and find you suddenly understood a text or prophecy you've hitherto struggled with in the past. Understanding is the work of the Holy Spirit.

It seems you do not understand the point. The point is that the text itself is not preserved in a single reading, but in multiple ones. You do not know which one to follow, if you want to "prepare".

Do you expect the OG or Theodotion reading to happen?
 
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trophy33

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For example, our understanding of end-time prophecies today is a whole lot better than those of believers that lived say, 500 years ago.
I think people today understand it a whole lot worse. They are creating a sci-fi readings of ancient prophetic texts, without any try to understand the ancient vocabulary of the author.
 
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Trivalee

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I think people today understand it a whole lot worse. They are creating a sci-fi readings of ancient prophetic texts, without any try to understand the ancient vocabulary of the author.
Yes, those that lack a basic understanding of the language of prophecy, often rely on conjecture to interpret what they do not understand. But there are some believers with a sound interpretation of the end-time prophecies. Not all, but a good number of these prophecies have been satisfactorily interpreted.
 
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