the prince who shall come

claninja said:

i was kind of hoping your sources included different Greek variations of Daniel 9:26.

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NETS is only translation, I do not know where to find Old Greek or Theodotion in Greek.

But from the translation itself it can be seen that the underlying texts differ significantly, even in length.

claninja said:

please see post #10. In the LXX, the “it” is not the prince that is coming. The “it” performing the action of the destruction is most likely the “anointed”. “Anointed” is a nominative noun (subject of sentence). The “prince that is coming” is a dative attribute participle, and is thus the means by which the anointed destroys the city and sanctuary. In the LXX, the “prince that is coming” is not the same as the “anointed” based on the grammar.

In the sentence, “the boy (nominative) hits (indicative active) the ball (accusative) with the bat (dative)”, is the bat the same as the boy?

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"And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him: and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint to desolations."

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

"And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in it and it shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint [the city] to desolations."

The anointed is not the it in your posted version. "Most likely" does not cut it in grammar. Now the anointed could be an it. So could "be destroyed". There was no judgment in the point of Messiah being destroyed. Yet God would use the Cross as the means of the destruction of Jerusalem. How? The prince that shall come. Not sure how you can avoid that point in all 3 translations.

With the prince that is coming

The people (of the prince) shall.

With the prince that is coming

What was the reason God allowed Jerusalem to be destroyed? You are still back to the anointed. So God used the prince to come because He was the anointed one.

That was already pointed out in verse 25:

"unto the Messiah the Prince"

Also the first example is clearer as I pointed out. Jesus did not pronounce judgment on those who crucified Him that day. Yet they pronounced a curse on themselves and their offspring that day on the point they were shedding innocent blood. We know that Jesus arose triumphant as King. We know He was innocent. It is still the point His people were the reason Jerusalem was destroyed.

There is no judgment in Him.

But not for Himself

There is no judgment in it.

Jesus did not judge them for crucifying Him. The point was to be the Atonement. The default answer is because they rejected Him. Some will point out that it was the destruction to end the daily sacrifices, except that ended at the Cross.

We know the Jews tried to revolt and over throw the Romans. All they got in return was death and destruction. I guess we will never know if they had just left things alone, and never revolted.

Your claim is that the Prince cannot be the Anointed one, but you base that on the word "it". The Anointed one cannot be the "it" in your translation. The judgment of the Cross was the "it". God planned for the Cross, and Jesus knew their Temple would be destroyed. Jesus did not prophecy that destruction out of revenge and retaliation for the Cross. The Anointed one is the Him in the other translation. The Anointed one was still condemned to the Cross by His own people. The Anointed one is still the King to come because of the Resurrection. God allowed the people to revolt, and never stopped Rome from coming and destroying Jerusalem. There is still a reasonable explanation that God is both the Christ and the King through the person of Jesus no matter which translation you use. There is also no reason whatsoever to pin this on Rome, even though Rome carried out the crucifixion and the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. God planned for the Cross, and God knew and allowed the event of 70AD. 70AD was not a planned event nor destruction by God. It was just the outcome of the Jews attempting to revolt against Rome. God did point out that the Jews did curse themselves in their bitter hatred of Jesus. Jesus also forgave them. Obviously that was not enough to overcome their continued bad decision making with the Roman occupation.

Timtofly said:

Your not keeping up either. The second woe was finished in Revelation 9:20-21

"And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts."

That is the end of the 6th Trumpet and 2nd woe. Because we see next:

"And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write:"

So the 7 Thunders happen. There is no going back to the 3rd woe/6 Trumpet, after that point.

Revelation 11:14 is just getting the reader back into the Trumpet soundings. Revelation 11:1-13 is a parenthetical talking about the period after the 7th Trumpet. Revelation 10 is already talking about the 7th Trumpet.

There is only one 42 month period and it is the same period as the 1260 days of the 2 witnesses. That is why it is the same earthquake.

Of course the 2nd woe is passed. It was over before the 7 Thunders. Revelation 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 all cover the 7th Trumpet.



I thought you were quoting another poster.

I would refute their post, if I was actually refuting.

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1) Why do you think John isn't allowed to write down what was spoken?


The 'mystery of God' is not finished yet!

The 7th Trumpet has not sounded at this point. In fact, John is told to prophecy again. And that prophecy is about the 2 witnesses.

2) The 2nd woe is the 6th Trumpet.
Why didn't the eagle cry 'woe' during the Seals indicating the start of the 2 witnesses if it was the case that they started before the 1st woe?

Because each of the trumpet blasts (5th, 6th, 7th) is also a woe. Rev 11 is the end of the 2nd woe. The 2nd woe started in Revelation 9:13 with the 6th Trumpet arriving.

It doesn't make much sense to put the 2nd woe starting before the first woe even arrives does it?

3) The 'rainbow' in Revelation 10:1 is signifying that the great tribulation is over (for now).

The 'rainbow' is occurring after a third of mankind was killed. It is coming immediately after that tribulation in Revelation 9:13-21.

I'm sure you know the story of Noah's flood and then came the 'rainbow' as a 'covenant' right?

Sound familiar? Dan 9

Then there is another 'sign of the son of man in heaven' that occurs after the 2 witnesses/ after the 2nd woe in Revelation 12:1. It is also occurring immediately after the 2 witnesses.

What are the 2 witnesses doing? Matt 24:31 again

They are gathering the elect. There is no 'whisked away' rapture.

Again, the end of the city comes with a flood. That is the 1st Woe with the locusts (people of the prince to come, remember Deuteronomy 28:38-52?) that do not torment the faithful. This is the start of the apostasy at the 1st Trumpet.

The sanctuary is defiled which is the 1st part of the 6th Trumpet. The 'locusts' have reached the sanctuary to defile it. That is the 'flood' upon the sanctuary.

After this flood, then the covenant is made which starts the 2 witnesses, then broken after the 2 witnesses 1260 days.

'Flood' on the city. 'Flood' on the sanctuary. End of the flood. Rainbow sign of the son of man. Covenant. Then the covenant is broken. Sign of the son of man in heaven in Revelation 12:1. The 7th Trumpet and the beast from the sea & earth.

It is literally the exact same pattern.

4) If what I have put forward is not correct, then you have the burden of telling me what the 3 woes mean.

I have said repeatedly what they mean. The woes are the birth pangs.

This is the 1st birth pang/ 1st woe:

This is the 2nd woe/ 2nd birth pang:

This is the 3rd Woe

This is also the 1st woe because one abomination is before the 'sign of the son of man' in Matthew 24:15-30; and the living image abomination in Revelation 13:14 is after the 'sign of the son of man' in Revelation 12:1.

Douggg said:

Correction - the covenant to be confirmed for 7 years is the Mt. Sinai covenant. That was the covenant that Daniel was praying over that his people broke, resulting in the Babylonian captivity.

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Sorry, but the Messiah being cut off is the introduction of the Atonement Covenant. The Cross did not restore the Sinai Covenant. We call it the New Testament. We do not call it the restored Sinai covenant.

myst33 said:

NETS is only translation, I do not know where to find Old Greek or Theodotion in Greek.

But from the translation itself it can be seen that the underlying texts differ significantly, even in length.

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thanks for bringing these points up. I find these variations fascinating.
I was able to find the OG and Theodotion translations

OG
“And after seven and seventy and sixty-two weeks, an anointing will be removed and will not be. And a king of nations will demolish the city and the sanctuary with the anointed one, and his consummation will come with wrath even until the time of consummation.”

Theodotion
“And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointing will be destroyed, and there is no judgment in it. And it will destroy the city and the sanctuary with (syn) the leader who is to come. And they will be cut off by a flood, and there will be annihilations to the finish of a shortened war.”

it seems the theodotion revision ended up superseding the OG. It is the theodotion version that I originally quoted from.

“Theodotion’s revision of the LXX version of the Book of Daniel, as is well known, found such favor with the church in early times that it finally displaced the latter [OG] entirely in all current copies of the Greek Bible. Bleek (Introd., 2:415) thinks this change received ecclesiastical endorsement between the age of Origen and that of Jerome. . . . In consequence of this circumstance the original version of Daniel in the LXX passed so completely out of view that it was long supposed to be lost beyond recovery. . . . As it regards the special relation of Theodotion’s version to the Alexandrian [OG], . . . Theodotion simply recast the version of the LXX. At one point he gives its very words, while elsewhere he introduces changes, in some instances, to the extent of a verse or more. Where his copy was abrupt and lacking in clearness, he seeks to make the sense smoother and more intelligible. His motive is everywhere apparent: to make a more acceptable version within the bounds of a respectable, though not slavish, adherence to his authorities”

Edwin Cone Bissell, “The Apocrypha of the Old Testament,” in John Peter Lange, ed., A Commentary on the Holy Scriptures: Critical, Doctrinal, and Homiletical (New York, NY: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1880), 442-443

claninja said:

thanks for bringing these points up. I find these variations fascinating.

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Some time ago, I tried to figure out the Daniel's prophecy.

The deeper in textual variants I got, the more impossible the task has become.

Even if I selected one specific textual variant, it could be translated and understood in so many ways.

Thats why I concluded it cannot be critical for our life today, because the message is not preserved clearly. I believe it has already been fulfilled and we can study it for historical reasons, if we wish.

myst33 said:

Some time ago, I tried to figure out the Daniel's prophecy.

The deeper in textual variants I got, the more impossible the task has become.

Even if I selected one specific textual variant, it could be translated and understood in so many ways.

Thats why I concluded it cannot be critical for our life today, because the message is not preserved clearly. I believe it has already been fulfilled and we can study it for historical reasons, if we wish.

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the theodotion text seems a more little clear. But I completely agree, as when I started looking at the Greek OG text, it seemed like it could be translated multiple ways….

tranquil said:

1) Why do you think John isn't allowed to write down what was spoken?

4When the seven thunders had spoken, I was about to put it in writing. But I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Seal up what the seven thunders have said, and do not write it down.” 5Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to heaven. 6And he swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and everything in it, the earth and everything in it, and the sea and everything in it: “There will be no more delay! 7But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be fulfilled, just as He proclaimed to His servants the prophets.” 8Then the voice that I had heard from heaven spoke to me again, saying, “Go, take the small scroll that lies open in the hand of the angel standing on the sea and on the land.”​

The 'mystery of God' is not finished yet!

The 7th Trumpet has not sounded at this point. In fact, John is told to prophecy again. And that prophecy is about the 2 witnesses.

2) The 2nd woe is the 6th Trumpet.

Revelation 8
12Then the fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun and moon and stars were struck. A third of the stars were darkened, a third of the day was without light, and a third of the night as well.

13And as I observed, I heard an eagle flying overhead, calling in a loud voice, “Woe! Woe! Woe to those who dwell on the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the remaining three angels!”
​

Why didn't the eagle cry 'woe' during the Seals indicating the start of the 2 witnesses if it was the case that they started before the 1st woe?

Because each of the trumpet blasts (5th, 6th, 7th) is also a woe. Rev 11 is the end of the 2nd woe. The 2nd woe started in Revelation 9:13 with the 6th Trumpet arriving.

It doesn't make much sense to put the 2nd woe starting before the first woe even arrives does it?

3) The 'rainbow' in Revelation 10:1 is signifying that the great tribulation is over (for now).

Matt 24
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’ 30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
​

The 'rainbow' is occurring after a third of mankind was killed. It is coming immediately after that tribulation in Revelation 9:13-21.

I'm sure you know the story of Noah's flood and then came the 'rainbow' as a 'covenant' right?

Sound familiar? Dan 9

Then the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations have been decreed.

27And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation, until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him.​

Then there is another 'sign of the son of man in heaven' that occurs after the 2 witnesses/ after the 2nd woe in Revelation 12:1. It is also occurring immediately after the 2 witnesses.

What are the 2 witnesses doing? Matt 24:31 again

And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.​

They are gathering the elect. There is no 'whisked away' rapture.

Again, the end of the city comes with a flood. That is the 1st Woe with the locusts (people of the prince to come, remember Deuteronomy 28:38-52?) that do not torment the faithful. This is the start of the apostasy at the 1st Trumpet.

The sanctuary is defiled which is the 1st part of the 6th Trumpet. The 'locusts' have reached the sanctuary to defile it. That is the 'flood' upon the sanctuary.

After this flood, then the covenant is made which starts the 2 witnesses, then broken after the 2 witnesses 1260 days.

'Flood' on the city. 'Flood' on the sanctuary. End of the flood. Rainbow sign of the son of man. Covenant. Then the covenant is broken. Sign of the son of man in heaven in Revelation 12:1. The 7th Trumpet and the beast from the sea & earth.

It is literally the exact same pattern.

4) If what I have put forward is not correct, then you have the burden of telling me what the 3 woes mean.

I have said repeatedly what they mean. The woes are the birth pangs.

This is the 1st birth pang/ 1st woe:

Matt 24:4 Jesus answered, “See to it that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. These things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.​

This is the 2nd woe/ 2nd birth pang:

[Here is the beginning of the 6th Trumpet]​

9Then they will deliver you over to be persecuted and killed, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate one another, 11and many false prophets will arise and mislead many. 12Because of the multiplication of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold.

[Here are the 2 witnesses!]​

13But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.​

This is the 3rd Woe

15 So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. 18And let no one in the field return for his cloak.
​

This is also the 1st woe because one abomination is before the 'sign of the son of man' in Matthew 24:15-30; and the living image abomination in Revelation 13:14 is after the 'sign of the son of man' in Revelation 12:1.

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Nope changing around the events to suit your theology will never work.

Between the 6th and 7th Trumpet the 7 Thunders will occur. They do not apply to the church nor the Nation of Israel.

That is why it was not necessary to record them for Israel and the church to read about them.

The 2 witnesses appear after the 7th Trumpet starts sounding as long as Satan is allowed 42 months. They are the only two witnessing during Satan's 42 months. They are only killed after the 42 months are finished.

Satan's 42 months of utter abomination and desolation is the 3rd woe. But those 42 months only happen after Jesus as King confirms the Atonement Covenant with the many. God in His foreknowledge will determine if any one will choose beheading. If no one is left to behead, those 42 months will not even happen. The 3rd woe is only for the left over gleanings after the final harvest; the first 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders. The final harvest is the time of Jacob's trouble (Matthew 25 the firstfruits of the Millennium Kingdom), the GT, as well as the wheat and tare harvest by Jesus and the angels in Matthew 13. The 7 Thunders is the Matthew 13 harvest of the wheat and tares.

In Matthew 24, Jesus gets to the end in verse 14. Then Jesus works backwards through the events. The AoD is the 42 months the 3rd woe. The GT is the Sounding of the first 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders. Also the final harvest. The Second Coming happens along with the rapture during the 5th and 6th Seal. The last event in Matthew 24 is the parable of the blooming fig tree. Israel as a restored nation. This is the order they will happen in: Israel, the Second Coming, the GT, and if necessary the AoD. Revelation has the correct order. All Scripture is reconciled by Revelation. Revelation should not be reconciled to fit other Scripture.

Douggg said:

Tim, we Christians believe in the new covenant in Christ. Christians are from every tribe, nations, kindreds, tongues, people.

But the 70 weeks are not determined upon Christians. The 70 weeks are determined upon Daniel's people the Jews and Jerusalem, Daniel 9:24.

The prophecies in Daniel 9 have to be prioritized with that in mind. The Jews, Daniel's people, still go by the Mt. Sinai covenant.

It is huge mistake to interpret the covenant to be confirmed for 7 years is the new covenant in Christ - which you are calling the Atonement covenant.

Once a person makes that huge mistake - then it sets off a whole barrage of eschatology errors - which you and tranquil have been arguing back and forth.

Christian Gedge makes the same huge error in preparing his Daniel 9 timeline.

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No the mistake is you trying to force a 7 year covenant. There is nothing in the whole Bible that backs up this claim. Daniel 9:27 is about Jerusalem and those living in it. It is a set of days, not a set of years. That is where you are in error. From that erroneous point, you then interpret verse 26 wrong. Daniel 9:27 is the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. The AoD is the 3rd woe. There is only 42 months given for this AoD, and no treaty signed period. The mark is given to those who reject the Atonement. Those who are beheaded remain in the Lamb's book of life, and are covered by the Atonement.

Douggg said:

You just claimed that the Daniel 9:27 week is a set of days, not years. Now you are claiming the Daniel 9:27 week, the abomination thereof in that verse is 42 months (3 1/2 years).

So which is it Tim, in your opinion, the Daniel 9:27 week - a week of days or years?

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42 months is an interruption, not part of the time of the prophecy. Just like the last 1992 years is not part of the 70 weeks, but an interruption between the Cross and the Second Coming. The fulness of the Gentiles is for the church in Paradise. The 42 months is for those beheaded, who are resurrected as firstfruits of the Millennium Kingdom.

Daniel 9:27 is the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. The 7th Trumpet is not 7 years long. I am not talking about the 70 weeks. I am talking about the 7th Trumpet.

Jesus as Messiah and Prince is the 70th week. Daniel 9:27 is not the 70th week. Daniel 9:27 is the 7th Trumpet.

The 7th Trumpet is a week of days, because the last half of the week is the 3.5 days mentioned in Revelation 11:9

"And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves."

Douggg said:

Daniel 9:27 is the 70th week. It does not begin with the sounding of the 7th trumpet, but the confirmation of the Mt. Sinai covenant for the 7 year cycle required by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

<.................................7 years................................................>

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The other 69 weeks have been accounted for in Daniel 9:25-26.

The one remaining week, the 70th week, is the week right in the text of Daniel 9:27.

Daniel 9:27 is not a week of days, but a week of years. History proves the 69 weeks until messiah and him cutoff are weeks of years.

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Nope. That is totally missing the Messiah and the Prince role of Jesus.

You have exchanged God for some human imagined eschatology.

myst33 said:

Before you actually look at the variants as preserved in different traditions and compare them to each other, there is not much more to talk about. Your opinions or disagreements before you do that are not too relevant.

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Unless you point out a specific passage that is controversial to you, it is absurd to refer to Daniel as irrelevant.

claninja said:

thanks for bringing these points up. I find these variations fascinating.
I was able to find the OG and Theodotion translations

OG
“And after seven and seventy and sixty-two weeks, an anointing will be removed and will not be. And a king of nations will demolish the city and the sanctuary with the anointed one, and his consummation will come with wrath even until the time of consummation.”

Theodotion
“And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointing will be destroyed, and there is no judgment in it. And it will destroy the city and the sanctuary with (syn) the leader who is to come. And they will be cut off by a flood, and there will be annihilations to the finish of a shortened war.”

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Well, I do find this very interesting, particularly because *both versions* agree with my interpretation of this particular passage--after going round and round for many years on it. I do understand the difficulty.

My current view is that after 69 weeks the Anointed One is to be cut off, and the Roman general (generic) will come to destroy Jerusalem and the temple (70 AD). What makes this interpretation easier for me is the fact Jesus based his Olivet Discourse on this particular understanding, apparently. And both versions agree with it.

It is difficult, but can be figured out, I think. What makes it more difficult is when particular views that are wrong become popular, then getting the truth across becomes almost an exercise in futility--nobody likes to be corrected unless they're more servants of God than of themselves.

Mind you, I'm just stating my view here, after having changed my views of Daniel a number of times over the decades. But I do find that people are not very friendly when it comes to proposing something that it not of the popular prophetic view.

Douggg said:

Tim, that is abstract talk. Copy and paste Daniel 9:27, and highlight the specific words in the text that supports your interpretation.

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7620. shabua: a period of seven (days, years), heptad, week

You translate the word as a set of years. Many versions just say week (a normal week). It has to be translated in context, and also cannot contradict other Scripture.

Some translations go to the effort of saying 7 years, but that is a wrong interpretation that contradicts Revelation 10.

But even historically has the earth experienced the AoD for the last 1992 years since the Cross? That is literally what people state, because the midst of the week would be the same point as Messiah being cut off. There literally cannot be both a 70th week in the first century and a 70th week again after the Second Coming.

If you say the 70th week is the future AC, you negate the 70th week in which Messiah was cut off in. Most eschatology today have defaulted to the 70th week completed in 27-34 AD. They have negated verse 27 entirely, and imply the last 1992 years have been the AoD, or the 3 days spent in the tomb fulfilled verse 27. How they reconcile that with 70AD is human imagined nonsense. How can 70AD be the middle of a week that was over in 30AD? They cannot even honestly say that 30AD was the mid point, and 66-70AD was the last half of the week. They say one thing while implying the other, thus nonsense.

You just replace Jesus as Christ and King with a human leader sometime in the near future. You don't acknowledge the Atonement Covenant, but inserted the Sinai Covenant as God's Good News; the Gospel.

Revelation 10 and 11 explain the sounding of the 7th Trumpet is a set of days. In the midst of this week, Satan may be allowed to set up the AoD and declare the Atonement null and void for 42 months. The last 3.5 days is covered by the bodies of the 2 witnesses while they lay in Jerusalem during the 7 vials. The battle of Armageddon is on the last hour of that week.

The interruption of the 70th week is given by Paul. The fulness of the Gentiles is the reason why the 70th week was split in half, and never finished in the first century.

Daniel 9:27 is the week of the 7th Trumpet. It is interrupted by the confirmation of the Atonement by King Jesus, after the final harvest. God gives a 42 month extension to some who will be beheaded. The 3rd woe or AoD and Satan's 42 months is the reason why the 7th Trumpet is split into two halves.

So the 70th week is for the fulness of the Gentiles. The 7th Trumpet is the confirmation that all named in the Lamb's book of life will be able to decide one way or the other. Will they remain in the Lamb's book of life or be removed.

That is essentially the reason for the fulness of the Gentiles. Will they accept the Atonement and remain in the Lamb's book of life, or reject God's Atonement.

Both the 70th week and the 7th Trumpet will stop at the same time. Even if there is no future 42 month interruption. The 7th Trumpet is the announcement that the 70th week is at an end. Jesus and the angels just finished the final harvest in the first 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders. The sheep separated from the goats. The wheat separated from the tares. The 7th Trumpet is to confirm there are no souls left to accept the Atonement. The kingdom on earth will be all the nations in subjection. Meaning only the righteous will start out the Millennium, just like only Noah and 7 others started out after the Flood. And not the church. The church was taken to Paradise and waiting to come down as the New Jerusalem after the Millennium.

RandyPNW said:

Well, I do find this very interesting, particularly because *both versions* agree with my interpretation of this particular passage--after going round and round for many years on it. I do understand the difficulty.

My current view is that after 69 weeks the Anointed One is to be cut off, and the Roman general (generic) will come to destroy Jerusalem and the temple (70 AD). What makes this interpretation easier for me is the fact Jesus based his Olivet Discourse on this particular understanding, apparently. And both versions agree with it.

It is difficult, but can be figured out, I think. What makes it more difficult is when particular views that are wrong become popular, then getting the truth across becomes almost an exercise in futility--nobody likes to be corrected unless they're more servants of God than of themselves.

Mind you, I'm just stating my view here, after having changed my views of Daniel a number of times over the decades. But I do find that people are not very friendly when it comes to proposing something that it not of the popular prophetic view.

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That is was the Romans has been a popular view since the Reformation when they also declared the popes as antichrists. Some translations, even placing Titus into the footnotes, as if that should be what every one should accept.

Timtofly said:

That is was the Romans has been a popular view since the Reformation when they also declared the popes as antichrists. Some translations, even placing Titus into the footnotes, as if that should be what every one should accept.

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That's true. The point is that what is not popular *now* is something we must fight thru sometimes. The fact it was popular at one time is very important if it is to have any credibility at all. A position that has never been held could never stand up on our word alone!