The Way, The Truth, and The Life

Soyeong · Jul 31, 2022

In John 14:6-7 Jesus claimed that he is the way (1), the truth (2), the life (3), the way to know the Father (4), and the way to see the Father (5). The point of this thread is to establish that what Jesus was talking about in these verses is the nature of the Father insofar as the Son is the exact expression of His nature (Hebrews 1:3), which he expressed through setting a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah, and that these verses are equally true of the Torah insofar as it is God's instructions for how to express aspects of His nature. Furthermore, God teaching us how to experiencing His nature by obeying the Torah is how God is gracious to us (6).

The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the nature of God as it does to describe the nature of God as it does to describe the nature of the Torah, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), or with justice, mercy, and faithfulness being weightier matters of the Torah (Matthew 23:23), and it could not accurately be described as such if it were not God's instructions for how to express those aspects of His nature. Furthermore, God's way (1) is the way in which He expresses aspects of His nature, such as righteousness and justice (Genesis 18:19, 2 Samuel 22:21-37) and there are many verses that describe the Torah as being instructions for how to walk in God's way (1), such as Deuteronomy 10:12-13, 1 Kings 2:1-3, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalms 103:7, Psalms 119:1-3 and many others.

In Psalms 119:142, the Torah is truth (2). The Torah is God's word, and in Psalms 119:160, the sum of God's word is truth (2). Also, John 17:17 is says that God word is truth and to sanctify them in truth (2). In John 1:14, Jesus is the word of God made flesh, so he is the Torah, the truth, and the word of God made flesh, and from this we can derive that Jesus is the way (1), the truth (2), the life (3), the way to know the Father (4), and the way to see the Father (5) without needing to reference John 14:6-7.

In Deuteronomy 30:15-16, obedience to the Torah brings life and a blessing (3). In Deuteronomy 32:47, it is our very life (3). In Proverbs 3:18, she is a Tree of Life for all who take hold of her (3). In Proverbs 6:23, for the commandment is a lamp and the teaching a light, and the reproofs of discipline are the way of life (3). In Proverbs 11:30, the fruit of the righteous is a Tree of Life (3). In Revelation 22:14, those who obey God's commandments will be given access to the Tree of Life (3). In Romans 2:6-7, those who persist in doing good will be given eternal life (3). In Matthew 7:14, narrow is the way (1) that leads to life (3). In Matthew 19:17, the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandment (3). In Like 10:25-28, obedience to the greatest two commandments is the way to inherit eternal life (3). In John 12:50, God's commandment is eternal life (3). In Hebrews 5:9, Jesus became a source of eternal life for those who obey him (3). In Romans 6:19-22, no longer presenting ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin is contrasted with now presenting ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life (3), so experiencing aspects of God's nature through our obedience to the Torah the content of God's gift (6) of eternal life and the way to know God and Jesus (4).

The Hebrew word "yada" refers to knowledge that is gain by experience or relationship, such as in Genesis 4:1, where Adam knew (yada) Eve, she conceived, and gave birth to Cain. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious (6) to him by teaching him His way (1) that he might know Him and Israel too (4), and in John 17:3 knowing God and Jesus is eternal life (3). In Jeremiah 9:3 and 9:6, they did not know God and refused know him because in 9:13, they had forsaken the Torah, while in 9:24, those who know God know that he delights in practicing steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in all of the earth, so delighting in practicing these and other aspects of God's nature through our obedience to the Torah is the way to know God and Jesus, who again is the exact expression of God's nature (4). In 1 John 2:4, those who say that they know Jesus, but don't obey his commands are liars and the truth is not in them (4)(1). In 1 John 3:4-6, those who continue to practice sin in transgression of the Torah have neither seen (5) or known him (4). In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them (4). So knowing God and Jesus is the goal of the Torah, which is eternal life.

Jesus is the exact expression of God's nature, so if we want to see God, then we look at the way that Jesus expressed His nature (5), and that is why he is the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15). For example, Jesus shows us the righteousness of God by living in sinless obedience to the Torah, so he is the Torah of God made flesh. In Exodus 34:6-7, Moses wanted to see God, so aspects of His nature were proclaimed (5).

In Psalms 119:29-30, David wanted God to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith (6). In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith (6). In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to do these works is the content of His gift of salvation, which is eternal life (6)(3).

So the Torah is the way, the truth, and the life, and the way to see and know the Father and Jesus is the living embodiment of the way, the truth, and the life, and the way to see and know the Father, which is evidenced by the fact that he set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to it.

HARK! · Jul 31, 2022

Soyeong said:
So the Torah is the way, the truth, and the life, and the way to see and know the Father and Jesus is the living embodiment of the way, the truth, and the life, and the way to see and know the Father, which is evidenced by the fact that he set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to it.

I have always enjoyed reading your posts; and I'm pleased once again.

I presented a similar message, with a similar title, here: The Way, The Truth, The Life, The Light, The Word

Bob S · Aug 1, 2022

Soyeong wrote":

the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandment (3). In Like 10:25-28, obedience to the greatest two commandments is the way to inherit eternal life

JN3:16 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

JN5:24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

!jn3:18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

I have no idea what or how many commandments I would have to DO to inherit eternity. but I do know that Jesus promises us eternal life if we believe in Him.

15 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples. 9 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. 12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends.

Jesus new commandment to love others as He has and does love us is the greatest command ever given to man. Of all the commands God ever gave to man this is the one that promises we will abide in His love. Love is the only command the Holy Spirit has ever prompted me to DO. I have never ever been prompted to keep the feast days, new moons or the weekly Sabbath nor all the other commands or man-made restrictions that some deem necessary to have eternal life.

Soyeong · Aug 1, 2022

Bob S said:
Soyeong wrote":

JN3:16 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

JN5:24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

!jn3:18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

I have no idea what or how many commandments I would have to DO to inherit eternity. but I do know that Jesus promises us eternal life if we believe in Him.

The Torah is God's instructions for how to express, know, believe in, love and testify about His nature and the OP established the first two points. The Son is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), so why do you think that expressing his nature through follow his example of obedience to the Torah is different from believing in the nature of who he is, or in other words believing in him? Why not consider all of the verses that speak about eternal life to be speaking about the same thing? When John 3:16 says that those who believe in the Son will have eternal life, and Matthew 19:17 says that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying His commandments, then clearly the way to believe in the Son is by obeying God's commandments. God has given instructions for how to how to believe in the Son and it is contradictory for someone to want to believe in Him for eternal life while not wanting to follow those instructions through faith in the Son.

There are many other verses the connect our belief in God with our obedience to His commandments or that connect our unbelief with disobedience. The Torah was given for our own good (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13) and relying on any set of instructions that are for our own good is about putting our faith in the one who gave them, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 23:23 that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Torah. What we believe is expressed through our actions, which is why James 2:17-18 says that faith without works is dead and that he would show his faith by his works, so doing good works is what faith looks like. In Hebrews 11, every example of faith is an example of someone doing works. In John 3:36, believing in Christ is equated with obeying him. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept God's commandments are the same as those who kept faith in Jesus. In John 6:40, those who believe in Jesus will have eternal life, in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Jesus, and in Matthew 19:17, the way to enter eternal life is by obeying the commandments, so obedience to the commandments is what it looks like to believe in Jesus and to know him. In Habakkuk 2:4, the righteous shall live by faith, and in Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is the Torah, so living by faith does not refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to the Torah. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith, and in Romans 16:25-26, Paul's Gospel and the preaching of Christ was to bring about the obedience of faith. In Deuteronomy 28:1, it speaks about faithfully obeying the voice of the Lord. In Romans 3:31, our faith upholds God's law. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (2 Samuel 7:28, Nehemiah 9:13, Psalms 19:7, 18:30, 33:4, 111:7, 119:30, 42, 75, 86, 99, 138, 142, 151, 160) and a law that isn't trustworthy can't come from a God who is trustworthy, so to put our faith in the law is to put our faith in the Lawgiver to rightly guide us, while to deny that God's law is of faith is to deny the faithfulness of God.

In Deuteronomy 32:51, Moses broke faith with God because he did not obey what God commanded him to do. In Numbers 5:6, disobedience to God's law is referred to as breaking faith. In Joshua 7:1 and 1 Chronicles 2:7, Israel broke faith by not doing what God commanded. In 1 Chronicles 10:13, Saul broke faith because he did not keep the command of the Lord. In 2 Chronicles 33:19, sin is equated with faithlessness. In Jeremiah 3:6-14, Israel was faithless because they did not obey God. In Ezekiel 14:13, sin is equated with acting faithlessly. In Psalms 119:158, David said that he looked at the faithless with disgust because they did not keep God's commands. In Romans 1:29-32 and Revelation 21:8, being faithless is associated with actions that are in disobedience to God. In Hebrews 3:18-19, unbelief is equated with disobedience. In 2 Timothy 3:8, those who oppose Moses also oppose the truth, being corrupted of mind and disqualified in regard to the faith.

15 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples. 9 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. 12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends.

Jesus new commandment to love others as He has and does love us is the greatest command ever given to man. Of all the commands God ever gave to man this is the one that promises we will abide in His love. Love is the only command the Holy Spirit has ever prompted me to DO. I have never ever been prompted to keep the feast days, new moons or the weekly Sabbath nor all the other commands or man-made restrictions that some deem necessary to have eternal life.

In 1 John 2:6, those who abide in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, and he walked in obedience to the Torah, and obedience to it is how we bear the fruit that comes from abiding in Christ, especially because Christ is the living embodiment of the Torah, so that is what he commanded. In John 15:10, Jesus used a parallel statement to equate the his commandments with those of the Father. In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized the Torah as being about how to love God and our neighbor, his living in obedience to it is how he expressed his love for us and how we are to love one another as he loved us. If we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit idolatry, theft, murder, adultery, kidnapping, rape, favoritism, and so forth, so the command to love fulfills the entire law because it is inclusive of everything in it and everything in it is an example of what it means to love.

When we express aspects of God's nature through our obedience to the Torah, we are expressing our love for those aspects of who God is, which is why there are many verses in both the OT and the NT that connect our love for God with our obedience to His commandments (Exodus 20:6, Deuteronomy 7:9, Deuteronomy 11:1, Joshua 22:5, Nehemiah 1:5, John 14:15, John 14:21, John 15:10, 1 John 5:2-3, 2 John 2:16). In particular obeying God's command to keeping the Sabbath holy in Exodus 20:8-11 is directly connected with what it means to love God in Exodus 20:6. So everything that God has commanded was specifically commanded to teach us how to love different aspects of His nature, which is why Jesus said in John 14:23-24 that is we love him, then we will obey his teachings, but if we do not love him, then we will not obey his teachings.

So if someone refuses to obey some of God's commands, then they simply do not love those aspects of the nature of who God is. For example, in 1 Peter 1:16, we are told to have a holy conduct for God is holy, so which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to do that, such as keeping His Sabbath holy (Leviticus 19:2-3) and refraining from eating unclean animals (Leviticus 11:44-45). So I refused obey God's instructions for how to have a holy conduct as He is holy, then I would not love God's holiness, and if God were not holy, then it would make no difference to how I lived, so I would be treating God as though He were not holy. Moreover, if someone else was observing the nature of my actions to discern what is true about the nature of the God that I worship, then they would not be able to discern that He is holy, so I would be falsely representing God to them and would be bearing false witness against Him. You have been prompted to keep the feast days, new moons or the weekly Sabbath, but you just choose to argue against doing that because you just don't love those aspects of who God is.

So as God's representatives, the way that we live testifies about the nature of who God is, such as our good works testifying about God's goodness, which is why they bring glory to him (Matthew 5:16). In Deuteronomy 4:5-8, the intended reaction of Israel's obedience to the Torah was to cause the nations to marvel at how great and wise He is, so the Torah was given to teach us how to teach the nations about the nature of who God is, or in other words it was given as a tool to evangelize the nations and thereby multiply the children of Abraham and be a blessing to them in fulfillment of the promise.

Bob S · Aug 2, 2022

Soyeong said:
The Torah is God's instructions for how to express, know, believe in, love and testify about His nature and the OP established the first two points.

The Torah WAS not is and God gave it to Israel and only to Israel. Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. 6 And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.” Torah was the Law of the land to which Israel was promised and the promise was an IF promise. They failed and the promise with all the laws was abolished. Why Messianic people insist they were not and pick and choose some of them is a mystery they have never revealed.

The Son is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), so why do you think that expressing his nature through follow his example of obedience to the Torah is different from believing in the nature of who he is, or in other words believing in him?

First of all Jesus was born under Torah law of the old covenant. Secondly, the old covenant ended at Calvary. Jesus said He came to fulfill the Torah, but all of it would remain until all was fulfilled. The question is did Jesus keep His promise? Did He fulfill the Law like He promised? Fulfill means to bring to an end. That is why Paul was so very adamant that we are not under the law. All the Law that concerned the Israelite was ever able to do is to convict.

Why not consider all of the verses that speak about eternal life to be speaking about the same thing? When John 3:16 says that those who believe in the Son will have eternal life, and Matthew 19:17 says that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying His commandments, then clearly the way to believe in the Son is by obeying God's commandments.

What has been some to observe is that the Jews were still under the old covenant. The Law was all they had to prove their loyalty to God. The new covenant would not take effect until Calvary. Again, looking at the writings of Paul we are not saved by keeping the Torah. The new covenant changed how we are to live. We are of the truth if we believe in Jesus and keep His commandments. His command is that we love others as He loves us. Love is so much greater than just ten commandments. Love covers any way we can hurt God and our fellow man. Read 1Jn 3:19-24

God has given instructions for how to how to believe in the Son and it is contradictory for someone to want to believe in Him for eternal life while not wanting to follow those instructions through faith in the Son.

Jesus said He kept Torah and His command for us is to love others as He loves us. Read Jn 15:9-14

There are many other verses the connect our belief in God with our obedience to His commandments or that connect our unbelief with disobedience. The Torah was given for our own good (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13) and relying on any set of instructions that are for our own good is about putting our faith in the one who gave them,

It was given for the good of a group of slaves that had been under the rule of unbelievers not US.

which is why Jesus said in Matthew 23:23 that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Torah. What we believe is expressed through our actions, which is why James 2:17-18 says that faith without works is dead and that he would show his faith by his works, so doing good works is what faith looks like. In Hebrews 11, every example of faith is an example of someone doing works. In John 3:36, believing in Christ is equated with obeying him. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept God's commandments are the same as those who kept faith in Jesus. In John 6:40, those who believe in Jesus will have eternal life, in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Jesus, and in Matthew 19:17, the way to enter eternal life is by obeying the commandments, so obedience to the commandments is what it looks like to believe in Jesus and to know him. In Habakkuk 2:4, the righteous shall live by faith, and in Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is the Torah, so living by faith does not refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to the Torah. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith, and in Romans 16:25-26, Paul's Gospel and the preaching of Christ was to bring about the obedience of faith. In Deuteronomy 28:1, it speaks about faithfully obeying the voice of the Lord. In Romans 3:31, our faith upholds God's law. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (2 Samuel 7:28, Nehemiah 9:13, Psalms 19:7, 18:30, 33:4, 111:7, 119:30, 42, 75, 86, 99, 138, 142, 151, 160) and a law that isn't trustworthy can't come from a God who is trustworthy, so to put our faith in the law is to put our faith in the Lawgiver to rightly guide us, while to deny that God's law is of faith is to deny the faithfulness of God.

James was not referring to works of the Law. He was referring to doing good deeds. Paul wrote that we are not under the works of the Law.

In Deuteronomy 32:51, Moses broke faith with God because he did not obey what God commanded him to do. In Numbers 5:6, disobedience to God's law is referred to as breaking faith. In Joshua 7:1 and 1 Chronicles 2:7, Israel broke faith by not doing what God commanded. In 1 Chronicles 10:13, Saul broke faith because he did not keep the command of the Lord. In 2 Chronicles 33:19, sin is equated with faithlessness. In Jeremiah 3:6-14, Israel was faithless because they did not obey God. In Ezekiel 14:13, sin is equated with acting faithlessly. In Psalms 119:158, David said that he looked at the faithless with disgust because they did not keep God's commands. In Romans 1:29-32 and Revelation 21:8, being faithless is associated with actions that are in disobedience to God. In Hebrews 3:18-19, unbelief is equated with disobedience. In 2 Timothy 3:8, those who oppose Moses also oppose the truth, being corrupted of mind and disqualified in regard to the faith.

Maybe you should read the whole paragraph. It surely is not telling us we have to observe the law of Moses. You have taken a verse out of context to bolster your belief system, too bad.

I believe I have debunked your theories and need not respond to any more of your long post.

Soyeong · Aug 2, 2022

Bob S said:
The Torah WAS not is and God gave it to Israel and only to Israel. Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. 6 And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.” Torah was the Law of the land to which Israel was promised and the promise was an IF promise. They failed and the promise with all the laws was abolished. Why Messianic people insist they were not and pick and choose some of them is a mystery they have never revealed.

God's nature is eternal, so any instructions that God has given for how to express, know, believe in, love, and testify about His nature are eternally valid, and if it is our goal to have a relationship with God by walking in His way in accordance with His nature, then we will follow those instructions. The way to act in accordance with God's nature is straightforwardly based on God's nature, not on a particular covenant, no amount of covenants being made or becoming obsolete will ever change the way to act in accordance with His nature. For example, it has was a sin against God's eternal nature to commit adultery in Genesis 39:9 long before the Mosaic Covenant was made, during it, it remains sinful after it has become obsolete, and if God were to ever create a covenant where it was in accordance with His nature to commit adultery, then His nature would not be eternal. The only way to abolish laws for how to act in accordance with God's nature would be to first abolish God. The Torah teaches us about the nature of the God of Israel, so by rejecting what the truth of the Torah, you are also rejecting the God whose eternal nature is described by it, as well as Jesus who is the exact expression of His nature. The Torah is how the Israelites know how to be blessed by walking in God's way (Psalms 119:1-3), so the fulfillment of the promise of being a blessing to the nations comes by teaching the nations to repent and obey it in accordance with the Gospel message.

First of all Jesus was born under Torah law of the old covenant. Secondly, the old covenant ended at Calvary. Jesus said He came to fulfill the Torah, but all of it would remain until all was fulfilled. The question is did Jesus keep His promise? Did He fulfill the Law like He promised? Fulfill means to bring to an end.

Even if Jesus wasn't born under the Torah as part of the Mosaic Covenant, then he still would have lived in accordance with it because he still would have had the same nature. In Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus said that he came to fulfill the Mosaic Law in contrast with saying that he came not to abolish it, so you should not interpret fulfilling it as essentially meaning the same thing as abolishing it. When a husband is fulfilling his marriage vows, he is correctly acting in accordance with what he has vowed to do, not ending his marriage. "To fulfill the law" means "to cause God's will as made known in His law to be obeyed as it should be" (NAS Greek Lexicon pleroo 2c3). After Jesus said he came to fulfill the law in Matthew 5, he proceeded to fulfill it six times throughout the rest of the chapter by teaching how to correctly obey it or by completing our understanding of it. In Galatians 5:14, loving our neighbor fulfills the entire law, so it refers to something that countless people have done, not to something unique that only Jesus did. In Galatians 6:2, bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, so that should be interpreted in the same way as fulfilling the Law of Moses, but you do not consistently interpret as saying that we are ending the Law of Christ by bearing one another's burdens. In Romans 5:18-19, Paul fulfilled the Gospel message by fully teaching it and bringing Gentiles to obedience to it in word and in deed, not by ending it. In Romans 3:31, Paul said that our faith does not abolish the law, but rather our faith upholds it, yet instead of upholding it by faith you seek to abolish it. Moreover, the Talmud contains many examples of people discussing how to fulfill the law by correctly doing what it instructs, not as ending it.

So yes, Jesus did fulfill the law as he said. In Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus said that not the least part would disappear from the law until heaven an earth disappear and all is accomplished, both of which are referring to end times (Revelation 21:1) or are idioms for saying that it is never going to happen. Jesus saying that he will be with us until the end of the age does not imply that he is leaving us at the end of the age. The Torah of which Jesus is the living embodiment can't be abolished without also abolishing Jesus, so you have simply argued that it has been abolished and thereby that believing in Jesus has also been abolished, but you have not explained why obedience to the Torah is different from believing in him.

That is why Paul was so very adamant that we are not under the law. All the Law that concerned the Israelite was ever able to do is to convict.

While I agree that we are not under the law, Paul spoke about multiple categories of law other than the Law of God, such as works of the law and the law of sin, so it is important to correctly identify which law he was speaking about us not being under. In Romans 6:14, Paul described it as being a law where sin had dominion over us, which does not describe the Law of God, which is a law where holiness, righteousness, and goodness have dominion over us (Romans 7:12), but rather it is the law of sin where sin had dominion over us. Furthermore, in Romans 6:15, being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin and sin is the transgression of the Law of God, so we are still under it. In addition, everything else in Romans 6 speak in favor of obedience to the Law of God and against sin, such as in verses 19-23, where we are no longer to present ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin, but are now to present ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so obedience to the Law of God is the content of His gift of eternal life, which was a major point of the OP that you have still not addressed.

What has been some to observe is that the Jews were still under the old covenant. The Law was all they had to prove their loyalty to God. The new covenant would not take effect until Calvary. Again, looking at the writings of Paul we are not saved by keeping the Torah. The new covenant changed how we are to live.

The Bible equates believing in Jesus with obeying God's commandments, so if someone wants to learn how to believe in him and how to be loyal to him, then then they should obey God's instructions for how to do that in the Torah. In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant still involves keeping the Torah. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and the Torah is how we know what sin is (Romans 3:20, 1 John 3:4), so while Paul spoke against earning our salvation by obeying the Torah, living in obedience to it is nevertheless inherently part of the concept of Jesus saving us from not living in obedience to it.

Here are some verses that speak against earning our salvation/eternal life as a wage: Romans 3:28, Romans 4:4-5, Ephesians 2:9-10, Titus 3:5, Galatians 2:21, Galatians 3:21.

Here are some verses that say that our salvation/eternal life nevertheless still requires us to choose to obey the Torah: Romans 2:6-7, Romans 2:13, Romans 6:19-23, Ephesians 2:10, Titus 2:11-14, Galatians 3:26-29, James 2:17-24, Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:25-28, Hebrews 5:9.

So there is a reason why our salvation/eternal life requires us to choose to obey the Torah other than in order to earn it as a wage, such as faith insofar as Romans 3:31 says that our faith upholds it.

We are of the truth if we believe in Jesus and keep His commandments. His command is that we love others as He loves us. Love is so much greater than just ten commandments. Love covers any way we can hurt God and our fellow man. Read 1Jn 3:19-24

The Torah is truth (Psalms 119:142), Jesus is the living embodiment of the truth because he lived in sinless obedience to it (John 14:6), and someone can't be of the truth while they are rejecting it. The way to believe in Jesus is not by rejecting God's instructions for how to do that in the Torah. Again, the Torah is God's instructions for how to love and Jesus expressed His love for us through His obedience to it, so that is how we are to love one another as he loved us. In Matthew 24:12-14, Jesus said that because of lawlessness the love of many will grow cold, which undermines wanting to obey God's command to love while rejecting His laws for teaching us how to love.

Jesus said He kept Torah and His command for us is to love others as He loves us. Read Jn 15:9-14

In John 15:10, Jesus used a parallel statement to equate his commands with those of the Father. He expressed His love for by keeping the Torah, so that is how we are to love as he loves us.

It was given for the good of a group of slaves that had been under the rule of unbelievers not US.

If the God who created the universe gave instructions to a group of people for their own good in order to teach them how to live blessed lives, how to be a blessing to others by teaching others to obey it, how to have a relationship with Him, how to believe in Him, how to love Him, and how to testify about Him through acting in accordance with His eternal nature, which is the purpose for which you were created, then wouldn't you want them to teach you how to follow those instructions?

James was not referring to works of the Law. He was referring to doing good deeds. Paul wrote that we are not under the works of the Law.

In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God, so obedience to God is part of the way to receive the Spirit, however, Galatians 3:1-2 denies that works of the law are part of the way to receive the Spirit, therefore works of the law do not refer to obedience to anything that God has commanded. In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, so works of the law are of works, while he said in Romans 3:31 that our faith upholds the Law of God, so it is of faith, and a law that our faith upholds can't be referring to the same thing as the works of the law that our not of faith in Galatians 3:10-11. In Galatians 3:10-12, Paul connected a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 with a quote from Leviticus 18:5, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as the ones who are living in obedience to the Law of God, while no one is justified before God by works of the law because they are not of faith.

So I agree that James was not referring to works of the law and that we are not under them, but he was referring to the Law of God, and God is sovereign, so we are under the Law of God. The Law of God is profitable for equipping us to do every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17), so it is God's instructions for how to do good deeds. Speaking about what James was referring to does not counter the many verses that I listed that connect our faith in God with our obedience to the Law of God or that connect our unbelief with our disobedience to it.

Maybe you should read the whole paragraph. It surely is not telling us we have to observe the law of Moses. You have taken a verse out of context to bolster your belief system, too bad.\

I believe I have debunked your theories and need not respond to any more of your long post.

I'm not sure which paragraph you are referring to, but I have read everything that you've said in this thread. I've shown many verses that show that telling us to believe in God and Jesus is the same as telling us to, so you simply asserting that they surely aren't telling us to obey the Law of Moses and that I've taken them out of context in lieu of showing that to be the case does not qualify as debunking what I've said, and the rest of my last post still stands.

Bob S · Aug 2, 2022

Soyeong, what is the difference between Torah and the law of Moses. When Jesus said He came to fulfill the law, what was He referring.

It is your contention that the word fulfill means to fill up. My dictionary doesn't mention that as a meaning.

to carry out, or bring to realization, as a prophecy or promise.
to perform or do, as duty; obey or follow, as commands.
to satisfy (requirements, obligations, etc.):a book that fulfills a long-felt need.
to bring to an end; finish or complete, as a period of time:He felt that life was over when one had fulfilled his threescore years and ten.
to develop the full potential of (usually used reflexively):She realized that she could never fulfill herself in such work.

OTHER WORDS FOR FULFILL
1accomplish, achieve, complete, realize.
2execute, discharge, observe.
3meet, answer, fill, comply with.
4end, terminate, conclude.

I bolded bring to an end and truly believe that is what Jesus did with the Torah. Eph 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,

2Cor3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Read full chapter

Soyeong · Aug 3, 2022

Bob S said:
Soyeong, what is the difference between Torah and the law of Moses.

"Torah" means "instruction" and is commonly used to refer to the books of Moses or to the instructions or therein.

When Jesus said He came to fulfill the law, what was He referring.

It is your contention that the word fulfill means to fill up. My dictionary doesn't mention that as a meaning.

to carry out, or bring to realization, as a prophecy or promise.
to perform or do, as duty; obey or follow, as commands.
to satisfy (requirements, obligations, etc.):a book that fulfills a long-felt need.
to bring to an end; finish or complete, as a period of time:He felt that life was over when one had fulfilled his threescore years and ten.
to develop the full potential of (usually used reflexively):She realized that she could never fulfill herself in such work.

"to perform or do, as duty; obey or follow, as commands."
"to satisfy (requirements, obligations, etc.):a book that fulfills a long-felt need."

Yes, these two definitions of "fulfill" that you quoted are what I am speaking about, which are in accordance with the definition in the NAS Greek Lexicon for "pleroo":

"to cause God's will as made known in His law to be obeyed as it should be"

So you need to give:

1.) Justification within the surrounding context of Matthew 5 for why it wouldn't make sense to interpret Jesus fulfilling the law as being in accordance with the three definitions above.

2.) The same for the broader context.

3.) Justification within the surrounding context of Matthew 5 for thinking that it would make sense to interpret Jesus fulfilling the law as ending it.

4.) The same for the broader context.

While I will make the opposite case:

1.) The definition in the NAS Greek Lexicon for specifically in regard to fulfilling the law. It makes sense because it fits with what Jesus immediately proceeded to do next by teaching how to correctly obey the law.

2.) It also makes sense in the boarder context because Jesus set a sinless example of how to correctly walk in obedience to the Law of God and he did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced. In Galatians 5:14, loving our neighbor fulfills the entire law, so it refers to something that countless people have done by correctly doing what the law instructs. In Romans 15:18-19, Paul fulfilled the Gospel by causing the Gentile to come to correct obedience to it in word and in deed. It fits with how to NT continues to call for us to repent from sin, which is the transgression of the Law of God (1 John 3:4). In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant still involves following the Law of God. In 2 Timothy 3:15-17, the Law of God is still considered to be profitable for teaching, correction, reproof, training in righteousness, that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped to do every good work. It also fits with how other Jewish writings such as the Talmud speak about fulfilling the law in regard to how to correctly obey it.

3.) Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-19 that he came to fulfill the law in contrast with saying that he did not come to abolish it and he warned those who would relax the least part of it teach others to do the same, so it wouldn't make sense to interpret "fulfill the law" as meaning "ending the law" because that would mean essentially the same thing as "abolishing the law", so by doing that you are essentially calling Jesus a liar and disregarding his warning.

4.) It wouldn't make sense in the broader context because in Romans 3:31, Paul confirmed that our faith does not abolish the law, but rather our faith upholds it, yet you seek to abolish it rather than uphold it. In Galatians 6:2, bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, yet you do not consistently interpret that as ending the Law of Christ. In Romans 15:18-19, you do not consistently interpret fulfilling the Gospel as ending the Gospel. It wouldn't make sense to think that Jesus went to the cross for the purpose of undermining anything that he spent his ministry teaching by word or by example. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to end any of God's laws, but in order to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Law of God is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20), while your definitions undermines both what Jesus accomplished through his ministry and through the cross. In Psalms 119:160, all of God's righteous laws are eternal. Laws for how to act in accordance with God's eternal nature can't be ended without first ending God and Jesus, who is the exact expression of God's nature.

5.) Your definition is contrary to my understanding of the verses that I've cited in my first two posts, so you need to show how your definition can be reconciled with your understanding of those verses, otherwise you are contradicting those verses.

OTHER WORDS FOR FULFILL

Click to expand...

1accomplish, achieve, complete, realize.
2execute, discharge, observe.
3meet, answer, fill, comply with.
4end, terminate, conclude.

You said your dictionary doesn't mention "fill up" as one of the meanings of fulfill, yet what you quoted lists "fill" as one of its meanings. Whenever we obey what the Law of God instructs, we are accomplishing it, achieving it, completing it or showing a complete understanding of it, causing what it instructs to be realized, executing it, observing it, meeting its requirements, showing a full understanding of it, and complying with it, which are all in accordance with the definition from the NAS Greek Lexicon, so you need to give justification for rejecting these definitions in favor of ending, terminating, or concluding it. Again, when a husband is fulfilling his marriage vows, he is acting in accordance with the first three sets of definitions by doing what he vowed to do, not the fourth set by ending his marriage.

I bolded bring to an end and truly believe that is what Jesus did with the Torah. Eph 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,

This is in regard to the broader context, but it doesn't make any sense to think that Jesus would end all of God's eternal laws, especially when Ephesians 2:10 says that we are new creations in Christ to do good works, and God's law is His instructions for how to do good works. The Greek word "dogma" is used 5 times in the NT, 2 times in regard to a decree by Caesar (Luke 2:1, Acts 17:7), one time in regard to a decree by the Jerusalem Council (Acts 16:4), so you need to give justification for interpreting it in Ephesians 2:15 and Colossians 2:14 as referring all of the commands in the Law of God, especially when Titus 2:14 doesn't say that Jesus gave himself to free us from the Law of God, but in order to free us from all lawlessness. The freedom that we have in Christ is the freedom from sin, not the freedom to do what God has revealed to be sin through His law. Jesus freed us from sin so that we could be free to follow him, not he did not free us from following him.

2Cor3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Read full chapter

In Deuteronomy 30:15-20, obedience to God's law brings life and a blessing while disobedience bring death and a curse, so choose life! The fact that it is ministry of death for those who refuse to submit to it is not a very good reason to refuse to submit to it and choose death instead of life. Again, there are many other verses that I have cited that show obedience to the Law of God is required in order to enter into eternal life and you should not interpret 2 Corinthians 3 in a way that contradicts those verses.

Clare73 · Aug 3, 2022

Soyeong said:
In John 14:6-7 Jesus claimed that he is the way (1), the truth (2), the life (3), the way to know the Father (4), and the way to see the Father (5).
The point of this thread is to establish that what Jesus was talking about in these verses is the nature of the Father insofar as the Son is the exact expression of His nature (Hebrews 1:3), which he expressed through setting a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah, and that these verses are equally true of the Torah

Lotta' boot-strapping in your theology. . .

Soyeong · Aug 3, 2022

Clare73 said:
Lotta' boot-strapping in your theology. . .

How so?

HARK! · Aug 3, 2022

Bob S said:
The Torah WAS not is and God gave it to Israel and only to Israel.

YHWH's covenant is with Israel.

(CLV) Hb 8:10
For this is the covenant which I shall be covenanting with the house of Israel after those days," the Lord is saying: "Imparting My laws to their comprehension, On their hearts, also, shall I be inscribing them, And I shall be to them for a God, And they/ shall be to Me for a people.

Yahshua was commissioned for none but Israel.

(CLV) Mt 15:24
Now He, [Yahshua] answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Ephesians 2

11 Wherefore, remember that once you, the nations (Gentiles) in flesh - who are termed 'Uncircumcision' by those termed 'Circumcision,' in flesh, made by hands -"

Not anymore!

12 that you were, in that era, apart from Christ, being alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and guests of the promise covenants, having no expectation, and without God in the world."

Not anymore! Hmmm...covenants, plural.

13 Yet now, in Christ Jesus, you, who once are far off, are become near by the blood of Christ."

Citizens of Israel.

(CLV) Hb 8:10
"For this is the covenant which I shall be covenanting with the house of Israel after those days," the Lord is saying: "Imparting My laws to their comprehension, On their hearts, also, shall I be inscribing them, And I shall be to them for a God, And they shall be to Me for a people.

14 For He is our Peace, Who makes both one, and razes the central wall of the barrier"

No difference between those who were born into the false dogma of Judaism, and those who were born into the false teaching of Paganism. All of those in Yahshua are in the truth of YHWH's perfect Torah.

15 (the enmity in His flesh), nullifying the law of precepts in decrees, (dogma, Talmud) that He should be creating the two, in Himself, into one new humanity, making peace;"

Israel!

Soyeong · Aug 17, 2022

@Leaf473 Please respond to post #8, I'm not sure if @Bob S is going to: The Way, The Truth, and The Life

You're also welcome to respond to the others posts in this thread.

Leaf473 · Aug 17, 2022

Soyeong said:
@Leaf473 Please respond to post #8, I'm not sure if @Bob S is going to: The Way, The Truth, and The Life

You're also welcome to respond to the others posts in this thread.

Thank you for the invitation.

The post in question seems to be about what it means to fulfill.

And I agree, that's a key issue.

The NAS Greek Lexicon that you refer to, is it available online? Then then we could all be looking at the same thing.

Something I wrote on a different thread:
Is the law fulfilled in the sense of a marriage vow, where you keep living a certain way in order to fulfill your vows?

Or is it fulfilled in the sense of a bank loan. Once it is fulfilled, you don't keep paying on it.

There's always going to be a range of meaning for most words, especially abstract concepts imo.

For me, the biggest evidence that Jesus meant fulfill in the bank loan sense is that the temple is destroyed 40 years (one generation) after the cross.

The alternative makes God look double-minded imo:

Be sure to keep these laws.
Never mind.
I'm destroying the temple so you can't keep these laws.

Soyeong · Aug 17, 2022

Leaf473 said:
Thank you for the invitation.

The post in question seems to be about what it means to fulfill.

And I agree, that's a key issue.

The NAS Greek Lexicon that you refer to, is it available online? Then then we could all be looking at the same thing.

Yes, I listed the first part of the only definition that is specifically in regard to fulfilling the law:

Pleroo Meaning in Bible - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

Something I wrote on a different thread:
Is the law fulfilled in the sense of a marriage vow, where you keep living a certain way in order to fulfill your vows?

Or is it fulfilled in the sense of a bank loan. Once it is fulfilled, you don't keep paying on it.

That is not difficult to discern. The Mosaic Covenant is never described in terms of being a bank loan, but is often described as being a marriage between God and Israel, such as God describing Himself as her husband (Jeremiah 31:31) or with Israel's unfaithfulness being described as adultery, which eventually got so bad that God wrote the Northern Kingdom a certificate of divorce (Jeremiah 3:8). The fact that Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law in contrast with saying that he did not come to abolish it, and warned against relaxing the least part of it or teaching others to do the same is also strong evidence that he was not speaking about it in terms of ending it as a bank loan.

For me, the biggest evidence that Jesus meant fulfill in the bank loan sense is that the temple is destroyed 40 years (one generation) after the cross.

The alternative makes God look double-minded imo:

Be sure to keep these laws.
Never mind.
I'm destroying the temple so you can't keep these laws.

The position that God's laws are eternal is eternally consistent and does not make God look double-minded, whereas thinking that God is flip flopping back and forth about whether or not doing something is an abomination and ending His own laws as if He had made a mistake in giving them is what makes God look double-minded, especially God made the New Covenant because they weren't following His law. None of God's laws ended after the destruction of the 1st temple, and the fact that someone them couldn't be followed after its destruction did not mean that God was double minded, so there is nothing about the destruction of the 2nd temple that means that any of God's laws have ended or that God would be double-minded if His eternal laws remained eternal. The Israelites were given a number of laws while they were still wandering the wilderness for 40 years that had the condition "when you enter the land..." so there is nothing wrong with there being laws that can't currently be obeyed and this does not mean that God is double-minded, but rather it is the right attitude to study God's law and have our hearts set on being prepared for what we are going to do the moment that we can obey them.

There's always going to be a range of meaning for most words, especially abstract concepts imo.

While I grant that the word can have a range of meaning, I made the case from both the surrounding the the broader context fits with the sense of fulfilling a marriage vow and doesn't fit with the sense of ending a bank loan, so please interact with the reasons that I gave to explain why they are wrong.

Bob S · Aug 18, 2022

Soyeong said:
@Leaf473 Please respond to post #8, I'm not sure if @Bob S is going to: The Way, The Truth, and The Life

You're also welcome to respond to the others posts in this thread.

Sorry S, I glanced at your long post and decided not to take the time to read it. I have reconsidered because the good news is Jesus did fulfill the Torah by bringing it to an end. Paul and John are my sources for my decision.

Leaf473 · Aug 18, 2022

Soyeong said:
Yes, I listed the first part of the only definition that is specifically in regard to fulfilling the law:

Pleroo Meaning in Bible - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

That is not difficult to discern. The Mosaic Covenant is never described in terms of being a bank loan, but is often described as being a marriage between God and Israel, such as God describing Himself as her husband (Jeremiah 31:31) or with Israel's unfaithfulness being described as adultery, which eventually got so bad that God wrote the Northern Kingdom a certificate of divorce (Jeremiah 3:8). The fact that Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law in contrast with saying that he did not come to abolish it, and warned against relaxing the least part of it or teaching others to do the same is also strong evidence that he was not speaking about it in terms of ending it as a bank loan.

The position that God's laws are eternal is eternally consistent and does not make God look double-minded, whereas thinking that God is flip flopping back and forth about whether or not doing something is an abomination and ending His own laws as if He had made a mistake in giving them is what makes God look double-minded, especially God made the New Covenant because they weren't following His law. None of God's laws ended after the destruction of the 1st temple, and the fact that someone them couldn't be followed after its destruction did not mean that God was double minded, so there is nothing about the destruction of the 2nd temple that means that any of God's laws have ended or that God would be double-minded if His eternal laws remained eternal. The Israelites were given a number of laws while they were still wandering the wilderness for 40 years that had the condition "when you enter the land..." so there is nothing wrong with there being laws that can't currently be obeyed and this does not mean that God is double-minded, but rather it is the right attitude to study God's law and have our hearts set on being prepared for what we are going to do the moment that we can obey them.

While I grant that the word can have a range of meaning, I made the case from both the surrounding the the broader context fits with the sense of fulfilling a marriage vow and doesn't fit with the sense of ending a bank loan, so please interact with the reasons that I gave to explain why they are wrong.

Without torturing the language too much, I think it's easy to see the bank loan idea in that definition.

I agree the Bible speaks in terms of a marriage, but it also talks about Sin being a kind of debt. That would support the bank loan idea.

When the first temple is destroyed in 589 BC, it's clearly because the Israelites were doing loads of bad things. What were the bad things that caused the destruction of the second temple, in your view? Does the Bible say?

It looks to me like God gives a warning shot by ripping the veil of the Temple at the cross. He then brings the entire system to a close in 70 AD.

I'd also recommend that we not go into too much detail here beyond the particular word Fulfill, since we already have another thread going in which we are discussing these same issues.

Bob S · Aug 18, 2022

Soyeong said:
"Torah" means "instruction" and is commonly used to refer to the books of Moses or to the instructions or therein.

Thanks, Soyeong. I believe it is your contention that the "books" are still to be obeyed and as Jesus said "not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law...". Am I on the correct path? If so, then since the ones Torah was given to are still obligated to do everything written and the smallest letter cannot be omitted. Leaf, in his post brought up a great point, the Temple was destroyed, so that a large portion of Torah requirements were not able to be fulfilled. Also, there was a phenomenal happening at Jesus death on the Cross. The veil separating the Holy from the most Holy was rent which allowed all of the Israelites entrance into the most Holy. That was something Torah forbad. Both of those things negated Jesus' words about the smallest letter... I ask you how that could have happened unless Jesus did end Torah Law at Calvary? If the Law was to be in effect until Jesus return, why did He allow the Temple to be destroyed and His words "smallest letter" become of no effect? The same applies for the law concerning the most Holy.

I still contend that the Bible teaches Jesus said He came to bring to an end Torah. He taught that Jews should obey Torah because the old covenant laws were yet to cease. This act did not take place until Jesus ratified His new and better covenant at Calvary with His own Blood. He has invited all mankind to become members of that covenant. Certainly Paul taught that the Galatians were not under Torah. He even wrote that Torah was UNTIL Jesus Gal3:19 19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come.

3 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.

10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.

You tell us you are Messianic, so I presume you keep the feast days and new moon days, don't eat certain things, wear tassels on your garments and do all the other requirements of Torah. Do you not see that you are in direct opposition to what Paul wrote to the Galatians? In Eph2 Paul wrote the following; 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations.

As to your referring to the "Law of God" as being the law God gave "us", that is not true Soyeong. God gave the Law to one nation of people, Israel. Abraham didn't have Torah, Noah didn't have Torah. No one until the Law was given at Sinai had all the requirements. Those requirements were to make Israel a great nation Ex19:5-6. Those requirements had nothing to do with "US".

You wrote that Jesus is sinless. Yes, He kept the law He was under, Jn15:9. Then He asked us to keep His law of Love, Jn 15:10-14.

2Cor3:6-11 tells us:
6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

The Greater Glory of the New Covenant
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

Those words as well as the previous verses are diametrically opposed to the notion that Jesus "filled up" Torah. If as you wrote and quoted Psalms 119 that the Law is eternal then sacrificing animals is eternal, the Levitical system is eternal and God's laws to Noah that allowed him to eat anything is eternal too.

"to perform or do, as duty; obey or follow, as commands."
"to satisfy (requirements, obligations, etc.): a book that fulfills a long-felt need."

Yes, these two definitions of "fulfill" that you quoted are what I am speaking about, which are in accordance with the definition in the NAS Greek Lexicon for "pleroo":

"to cause God's will as made known in His law to be obeyed as it should be"

So you need to give:

1.) Justification within the surrounding context of Matthew 5 for why it wouldn't make sense to interpret Jesus fulfilling the law as being in accordance with the three definitions above.

2.) The same for the broader context.

3.) Justification within the surrounding context of Matthew 5 for thinking that it would make sense to interpret Jesus fulfilling the law as ending it.

4.) The same for the broader context.

While I will make the opposite case:

You wrote the meaning of fulfill is "to satisfy (requirements, obligations, etc.) What does "satisfy" mean to you?

1.) The definition in the NAS Greek Lexicon for specifically in regard to fulfilling the law. It makes sense because it fits with what Jesus immediately proceeded to do next by teaching how to correctly obey the law.

To whom was Jesus teaching? Hint; Jews who were under Torah, the laws of the old covenant. Jesus had yet to ratify the new covenant.

2.) It also makes sense in the boarder context because Jesus set a sinless example of how to correctly walk in obedience to the Law of God and he did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced. In Galatians 5:14, loving our neighbor fulfills the entire law, so it refers to something that countless people have done by correctly doing what the law instructs.

The Law only instructed Israel While under the dictates of the law.

In Romans 15:18-19, Paul fulfilled the Gospel by causing the Gentile to come to correct obedience to it in word and in deed. It fits with how to NT continues to call for us to repent from sin, which is the transgression of the Law of God (1 John 3:4). In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant still involves following the Law of God. In 2 Timothy 3:15-17, the Law of God is still considered to be profitable for teaching, correction, reproof, training in righteousness, that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped to do every good work. It also fits with how other Jewish writings such as the Talmud speak about fulfilling the law in regard to how to correctly obey it.

3.) Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-19 that he came to fulfill the law in contrast with saying that he did not come to abolish it and he warned those who would relax the least part of it teach others to do the same, so it wouldn't make sense to interpret "fulfill the law" as meaning "ending the law" because that would mean essentially the same thing as "abolishing the law", so by doing that you are essentially calling Jesus a liar and disregarding his warning.

4.) It wouldn't make sense in the broader context because in Romans 3:31, Paul confirmed that our faith does not abolish the law, but rather our faith upholds it, yet you seek to abolish it rather than uphold it. In Galatians 6:2, bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, yet you do not consistently interpret that as ending the Law of Christ. In Romans 15:18-19, you do not consistently interpret fulfilling the Gospel as ending the Gospel. It wouldn't make sense to think that Jesus went to the cross for the purpose of undermining anything that he spent his ministry teaching by word or by example. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to end any of God's laws, but in order to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Law of God is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20), while your definitions undermines both what Jesus accomplished through his ministry and through the cross. In Psalms 119:160, all of God's righteous laws are eternal. Laws for how to act in accordance with God's eternal nature can't be ended without first ending God and Jesus, who is the exact expression of God's nature.

Good work is not doing the works of the Law, it is doing good deeds. James was referring to good deeds

5.) Your definition is contrary to my understanding of the verses that I've cited in my first two posts, so you need to show how your definition can be reconciled with your understanding of those verses, otherwise you are contradicting those verses.

I certainly hope it is different and contrary to what you have been taught.

You said your dictionary doesn't mention "fill up" as one of the meanings of fulfill, yet what you quoted lists "fill" as one of its meanings. Whenever we obey what the Law of God instructs, we are accomplishing it, achieving it, completing it or showing a complete understanding of it, causing what it instructs to be realized, executing it, observing it, meeting its requirements, showing a full understanding of it, and complying with it, which are all in accordance with the definition from the NAS Greek Lexicon, so you need to give justification for rejecting these definitions in favor of ending, terminating, or concluding it. Again, when a husband is fulfilling his marriage vows, he is acting in accordance with the first three sets of definitions by doing what he vowed to do, not the fourth set by ending his marri age.

Hold on there S. Jesus not only said He came to fulfill the law, He said He came to fulfill the Prophets So how does your theory fit with prophets? Did Your "fill up" comply what Jesus did? Actually, what Jesus did was to bring the prophecies concerning him to an end. He accomplished them, he fulfilled what they said He would do. He ended them. He ended the old covenant law too.

This is in regard to the broader context, but it doesn't make any sense to think that Jesus would end all of God's eternal laws, especially when Ephesians 2:10 says that we are new creations in Christ to do good works, and God's law is His instructions for how to do good works. The Greek word "dogma" is used 5 times in the NT, 2 times in regard to a decree by Caesar (Luke 2:1, Acts 17:7), one time in regard to a decree by the Jerusalem Council (Acts 16:4), so you need to give justification for interpreting it in Ephesians 2:15 and Colossians 2:14 as referring all of the commands in the Law of God, especially when Titus 2:14 doesn't say that Jesus gave himself to free us from the Law of God, but in order to free us from all lawlessness. The freedom that we have in Christ is the freedom from sin, not the freedom to do what God has revealed to be sin through His law. Jesus freed us from sin so that we could be free to follow him, not he did not free us from following him.

This is what Titus really says; 11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

Where do you find that we believe we are free from following Jesus? The law you are referring is Torah. Torah was given to only one nation, Israel. I have never been bound to having to observe Torah. I am free from the Law. I live by grace and faith and I serve my fellow man by loving as Jesus taught.

In Deuteronomy 30:15-20, obedience to God's law brings life and a blessing while disobedience bring death and a curse, so choose life!

Do you realize the Israelites were living long before they were rescued? They were not increasing. Deut 15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess. It was Israel entering the land. It was Israel that was responsible to keep God's laws for only them under the covenant given them at Sinai. I am living under the new and better covenant. Jesus asks us to love others as He loves us. He doesn't tell us we are subject to the Lawshe gave only to Israel.

The fact that it is ministry of death for those who refuse to submit to it is not a very good reason to refuse to submit to it and choose death instead of life.

The ten commandments could not offer salvation no matter how well some might keep them. They could only point out a few of the ways man could do harm to his fellow man. The Sabbath command was a ritual command given only to the Israelites. Col 2:16 tells us the fate of the Sabbath command.

Again, there are many other verses that I have cited that show obedience to the Law of God is required in order to enter into eternal life and you should not interpret 2 Corinthians 3 in a way that contradicts those verses.

Actually, you have not shown one verse that that has stated obedience to Torah can save anyone. Salvation comes only by believing in the one God sent to this Earth, Jesus Christ. Jn 3:16.

Please tell me how to interpret 2Cor3:6-11 in any other way than I have plainly stated.

Soyeong · Aug 19, 2022

Bob S said:
Thanks, Soyeong.

It is possible that I've misinterpreted all of the verses that I used to support the OP and what it means to fulfill the law, but if you argue for a contrary position without explaining how I have misinterpreted them and reconciling them with your position, then you are arguing that they are contradicted by the verses that you cited. For example, when I say that God's righteousness is eternal and the the Torah is truth (Psalms 119:142), that the sum of God's word therefore all of His righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160), and that laws for how to act in accordance with God's nature can't be ended without first ending God, but you just make the case that the Torah has ended without reconciling that with what I said, then you are arguing that the verses you cited contradict the verses that I cited. Furthermore, the Torah is God's word, so you are not dealing with the issue that you are arguing against God's word, against the truth, and against the existence of the Father and the Son.

I believe it is your contention that the "books" are still to be obeyed and as Jesus said "not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law...". Am I on the correct path? If so, then since the ones Torah was given to are still obligated to do everything written and the smallest letter cannot be omitted.

Yes, the Torah instructs us how to act in accordance with God's nature, so all of is remains eternally valid for as long as God's nature remains eternal. The Israelites were given a number of laws that had the condition "when you enter the land..." while they were still wandering the wilderness for 40 years, so none of those laws disappeared from the Torah while they weren't being followed, but rather they were followed once they had ended the land. Likewise, laws in regard to temple practice that weren't followed after the destruction of the 1st temple were once again followed after the construction of the 2nd temple, so there is nothing about the destruction of the 2nd temple that means that those laws have disappeared from the Torah.

I still contend that the Bible teaches Jesus said He came to bring to an end Torah. He taught that Jews should obey Torah because the old covenant laws were yet to cease. He has invited all mankind to become members of that covenant. Certainly Paul taught that the Galatians were not under Torah. He even wrote that Torah was UNTIL Jesus Gal3:19 19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come.

In Jeremiah 31:31-33, it does not say that the New Covenant is made with all mankind, but that it is made with the house of Judah and the house of Israel and that it involves God putting the Torah our minds and writing it on our hearts, so if someone wants nothing to do with becoming part of Israel and obeying the Torah, then they want nothing to do with the New Covenant.

If you grant that Jesus did not spend his ministry telling people the Torah has ended and they needed to stop repenting, but that he spent it calling for people to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand and teaching his followers how to correctly obey the Torah by word and by example because the Mosaic Covenant had not yet ceased, when why do you think that he established the New Covenant for the purpose of undermining His entire ministry, especially in light of the fact that the New Covenant still involves following the Torah? What do you think was the point of his ministry and why do you interpret Galatians 3:19 as being contrary to what Jesus spent his ministry doing? How do you deal with verses that instruct us that we are still to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) or that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), or that give us no room to disregard anything that Jesus taught during his ministry (John 12:46-50)?

Galatians 3:1-10

Do you not see that you are in direct opposition to what Paul wrote to the Galatians?

No, it does not make sense to me to interpret Galatians as Paul warning followers of Christ against following what Christ taught. In Galatians 3:10, Paul said that cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything in the Book of the Law, so that is a strong endorsement that we should continue to do everything in the Book of the Law instead of relying on works of the law and it is not clear to me why you think that Paul was opposed to relying on the Book of the Law as if he wanted us to be cursed.

In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, so works of the law are of works, while he said in Romans 3:31 that our faith upholds God's law, so it is of faith, and a law that our faith upholds can't be referring to the works of the law that are not of faith in Galatians 3:10-12. Furthermore, those verses connect a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 with a quote from Leviticus 18:5, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living in obedience to the Book of the Law, while no one is justified before God by works of the law because they are not of faith. In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is the Torah, so the righteous living by faith does not refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to it. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so to rely on God's law for salvation is to rely on God for salvation, while to deny that God law is of faith rather than works of the law is to deny the faithfulness of God. In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God, so obedience to God is part of the way to receive the Spirit, however, Galatian 3:1-2 denies that works of the law are part of the way to receive the Spirt, therefore, works of the law did not come from God, which is why they are not of faith in Him.

Eph2

Please interact with what I said about those verses instead of just citing them again in lieu of that.

Abraham didn't have Torah, Noah didn't have Torah. Those requirements were to make Israel a great nation Ex19:5-6. Those requirements had nothing to do with "US".

In Galatians 18:19, God knew Abraham that he would teach His children and those of His household to walk in God's way by doing righteousness and justice that the Lord may being to him all that he promised, namely in Genesis 26:4-5, God will multiply Abraham's children as the stars in the heaven, to his children he will give all of these lands, and through his offspring all of the nations of the earth will be blessed because he heard God's voice and guarded His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws, and in Deuteronomy 30:16, if the Israelites will love the Lord their God by walking in His way, by keeping His commandments, His statutes, and His laws, then they shall live and multiply, and the Lord will bless them in the land that they are entering. There are many other verses that describe the Torah as being instructions for how to walk in God's way that I cited in the OP. So all of the promises that were made in accordance with the Gospel of the Kingdom that was made known in advance to Abraham (Galatians 3:8, Matthew 4:15-23) were made to him and brought about because he walked in God's way in obedience to the Torah, he taught his children how to do that, and his children did that. In John 8:39, the children of Abraham are those who are doing the same works as him, so the children of Abraham are multiplied by teaching others how to be blessed by walking in God's way in obedience to the Torah in accordance with the promise and the Gospel of the Kingdom, yet you reject this because it was taught to them in order to equip them to teach you instead of being directly taught to you.

In Galatians 3:26-29, it connects being children of God through faith in Christ with being children of Abraham, heirs to the promise. In 1 John 3:4-10, those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to the Torah are not children of God, in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Torah, in 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, so every aspect of being a children of God, through faith, in Christ, children of Abraham, and heirs to the promise is directly connected with living in obedience to the Torah.

In Psalms 119:29, David wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Torah, and he chose the way of faithfulness, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God, he was a righteous man, and he walked with God, and it was no mystery how he knew how to do what is righteous, but rather God was gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way in obedience to the Torah, and he was righteous because he obeyed through faith.

The purpose of making Israel a great nation was so that they would serve as a witness for God and how to walk in His way in accordance with the Gospel of the Kingdom (Deuteronomy 4:5-8), but you reject their witness and the whole point of making them as great nation.

He asked us to keep His law of Love, Jn 15:10-14.

In John 15:10-14, Jesus used a parallel statement to equate his commandments with those of the Father, especially after John 14:23-24, where he said that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father. In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized the Torah as being about how to love God and our neighbor, so that is his law of love. If we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit idolatry, theft, murder, idolatry, rape, kidnapping, favoritism, and so forth for everything else commanded in the Torah.

2Cor3:6-11 tells us:
6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Following the letter of the law undermines both the intent of what God has commanded in the Torah and why he has commanded it, which therefore leads to death just as assuredly as refusing to obey it. In Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Torah, so following the Spirit does not refer to something other than living in obedience to it.

2 Corinthians 3:7-11

Click to expand...

Those words as well as the previous verses are diametrically opposed to the notion that Jesus "filled up" Torah.

Changing the medium upon which the Torah is written from stone to our hearts does not change the content of what it instructs us to do. For example, the command to honor our parents written on stone has the same content as the command to honor our parents written on our hearts. In Deuteronomy 30:15-20, the Torah is a ministry of life for those who obey it and the fact that it is a ministry of death for those who refuse to submit to it is not a very good reason for you to refuse to submit to it.

What does "satisfy" mean to you?

For example, whenever someone acts in a way that honors their parents, they are satisfying their requirement or their obligation to honor their parents by correctly doing what God has commanded.

To whom was Jesus teaching? Jesus had yet to ratify the new covenant.

We can look at Torah that Jesus taught by word and by example and decide whether or not to become his follower, but we can't follow him while rejecting what he taught, and Jesus did not establish the New Covenant for the purpose of undermining everything that he taught, but rather it still involves following the Torah (Jeremiah 31:33). There is nothing in the Bible that gives followers of Jesus any room to refuse to follow anything that he taught. Furthermore, regardless of to whom he was teaching, the definition in the NAS Greek Lexicon that I listed fits when what Jesus immediately proceeded to do next, so you need to give justification for rejecting that definition in favor of a definition that that is contrary to what he proceeded to do next.

The Law only instructed Israel While under the dictates of the law.

There is no point in Jesus spending his ministry teaching his followers how to obey the Torah by word and by example if he was saying that he came to end it in order to free us from following him.

Good work is not doing the works of the Law, it is doing good deeds. James was referring to good deeds

Again, I agree that James was not referring to works of the law, but rather he was referring to doing good deeds in obedience to the Torah. Your point is not contrary to the many verses that I listed that connect our faith in God with our obedience to Him or that connect our unbelief with our disobedience to Him. Furthermore, the main thing that I was wanting you to do was interact with the reasons that I gave in support the definition that I am using and against the definition that you are using from the surrounding and broader context to explain why I am wrong, but you neglected to counter a single reason that I gave by explaining how my reasoning was wrong and only tried to make the case that the sets of verses that we use to support our positions contradict each other.

He came to fulfill the Prophets So how does your theory fit with prophets?

Here is the full definition:

to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment

Jesus do not end the Prophets, but rather he embodied what they prophesied about and there is more that they prophesied about in the future that he will fulfill. Jesus expressing the nature of God through living in sinless obedience to the Torah means that he is the living embodiment of it, not its end.

Where do you find that we believe we are free from following Jesus? The law you are referring is Torah. Torah was given to only one nation, Israel. I have never been bound to having to observe Torah. I am free from the Law. I live by grace and faith and I serve my fellow man by loving as Jesus taught.

Jesus taught how to correctly obey the Torah by word and by example, but you don't want to follow him. It is contradictory to think that you have never been under the Torah and that you have been freed from being under it, though both are false. The Bible does not say that Jesus gave himself to free us from the law, but to free us from all lawlessness. The Torah teaches us how to do everything that Titus 2:11-14 describes that we are being trained by grace to do, but while you claim to live by grace, you reject the Torah. In Psalms 119:29-30, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Torah and he chose the way of faithfulness, but you want God to be gracious to you instead of teaching you to obey it, so you reject what it means to live by grace and faith. Jesus taught how to love God and our neighbor by teaching his followers how to obey the Torah, so you reject loving as Jesus taught. You can't say that you accept what Jesus taught while at the same time rejecting what he taught as being part of the Mosaic Covenant.

They were not increasing. Jesus asks us to love others as He loves us.

Indeed, Israel did multiply in accordance with the promise by teaching others turn from their wickedness and how to walk in God's way in obedience to the Torah. In Acts 3:25-26, Jesus was also sent as the fulfilment of that promise to bless us by by turning us from our wickedness, but you reject that. Jesus expressed his love for us through his obedience to the Torah, so that is how we are to love as he loves us.

The ten commandments could not offer salvation no matter how well some might keep them.

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and the Torah was given to give us knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so while we do not earn our salvation as a wage by living in obedience to the Torah, living in obedience to it is intrinsically part of the concept of Jesus saving us from not living in obedience to it. It's is not a matter of how well we keep God's commands, but a matter of knowing Him through experiencing His nature, which is eternal life (John 17:3).

Col 2:16 tells us the fate of the Sabbath command.

In Colossians 2:16-23, they were keeping God's holy days in obedience to His commands in accordance with what Jesus taught, they were being judged by pagans who were teaching human traditions and precepts, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body, and Paul was encouraging them not to let any man judge them and keep them from obeying God, so it is ironic when you try to use this verse to justify your refusal to obey God.

Actually, you have not shown one verse that that has stated obedience to Torah can save anyone. Jn 3:16.

Again, here are some verses that show obedience to the Torah is required for eternal life/salvation: Romans 2:6-7, Romans 2:13, Romans 6:19-23, Ephesians 2:10, Titus 2:11-14, Galatians 3:26-29, Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:25-28, Hebrews 5:9, and Revelation 22:14, so these verses combined with John 3:16 mean that obedience to God's commandments is the way to believe in the Son, which is the case that I made in the OP.

Soyeong · Aug 22, 2022

Bob S said:
Thanks, Soyeong.

This is the main thing that I am wanting you to do:

1.) Justification within the surrounding context of Matthew 5 for why it wouldn't make sense to interpret Jesus fulfilling the law as being in accordance with the three definitions above.

2.) The same for the broader context.

3.) Justification within the surrounding context of Matthew 5 for thinking that it would make sense to interpret Jesus fulfilling the law as ending it.

4.) The same for the broader context.

If we both have correct understandings of the verses that we used to support our position, when that would mean that those verses contradict each other, but I think that both of us agree that the Bible does not contradict itself, which means means that either one or both of us have misunderstood the verses that we have used to support our position, so what I am wanting you to do is to interact with the reasons that I gave in support of my position to explain why you think that I have made an error in reasoning.

Bob S · Aug 23, 2022

Soyeong said:
This is the main thing that I am wanting you to do:

1.) Justification within the surrounding context of Matthew 5 for why it wouldn't make sense to interpret Jesus fulfilling the law as being in accordance with the three definitions above.

The three definitions you believe represent what Jesus did does not coincide with everything Paul wrote about the destiny of the Law. Actually, we don't have to look beyond Matt 5 to understand that Jesus did fulfil the Law because if not, not one jot or one tittle could be removed from the Law and Israel would still be required to observe even the smallest letter. Yes, Jesus did bring the Law to an end just as the scripture indicates. Paul would not have any authority to tell the Galatians that they were foolish for believing they had to keep the Law. He would not have been able to write Eph 2:10 and on. John would not have been able to write in 1Jn3:19-24 that we are of the truth if we believe in the one God sent and keep His commandment to love. He would have had to write keep Torah.

2.) The same for the broader context.

3.) Justification within the surrounding context of Matthew 5 for thinking that it would make sense to interpret Jesus fulfilling the law as ending it.

And just why not. Jesus gave us a brand new covenant that is better than the old one. It has better promises and a law that every human being should be able to keep. We have the Holy Spirit, a gift from Jesus to all mankind. This wonderful gift is, if we allow it to work in us, more glorious than anything guiding us in righteousness. This gift is far more glorious than the gift of ten commands. Those commands became the ministry of death to Israel. Not my words, Paul wrote it and I believe it.

If we both have correct understandings of the verses that we used to support our position, when that would mean that those verses contradict each other, but I think that both of us agree that the Bible does not contradict itself, which means means that either one or both of us have misunderstood the verses that we have used to support our position, so what I am wanting you to do is to interact with the reasons that I gave in support of my position to explain why you think that I have made an error in reasoning.

I have been trying to do that ever since I became a poster on this forum. The above explanation should start to make a difference in what you believe, but since I was once a Sabbath observer, I realize it takes much more that another person trying to convince another person. It takes the Holy Spirit which we possess to bring change. I see things so plainly now that once were just a blurr. It is wonderful how each scriptural thought supports every other thought. I don't have to block out some scripture thoughts because I think it negates another part of scripture.

The Way, The Truth, and The Life

Well-Known Member

שמע

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Blood-bought

Well-Known Member

שמע

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads