the prince who shall come
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trophy33
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Rahlfs' edition is only in print I think.
NETS is online:
https://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nets/edition/40-daniel-nets.pdf
You may also want to compare with Vulgate version or with Dead Sea Scrolls (not sure if they include Daniel).
I will basically return to my point in the post #2, that the text of Daniel is not preserved well enough to be for us today.
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RandyPNW
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Antichrist--who is only in Dan 7--not in Dan 8, 9, or 11, may or may not have Jewish blood in him. But I agree with you--he will likely be a Gentile. I believe he arises out of the "Roman Kingdom," which is the 4th Kingdom mentioned in Dan 2 and 7.
Coming out of Europe, Antichrist will be a Gentile. And there have been some obvious forerunners of him in European tradition, those coming out of Christian lands and yet opposing the Christian Church--men like Napoleon, Hitler, and Stalin. I believe Antichrist will come via this Gentile tradition, emerging from a post-Christian society to try to destroy the Church.
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RandyPNW
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I don't believe this, but I will ask my brother, who does amateur translation work for himself and is presently working on Daniel. Daniel, of course, is written in two different languages, Aramaic and Hebrew. I trust the translators to have given us a pretty good idea, even if there were differences between the earlier manuscripts.
There may be some legitimate confusion over these divergent translations. But some of it may be caused by a predisposition towards rejection of the supernatural. Daniel really existed early enough for it to be accepted by those who stored the Dead Sea Scrolls.
The Aramaic of Daniel — Dr. Tim White
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trophy33
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Old testament is preserved in several different traditions:
a) in Greek
- Old Greek
- Theodotion
- critical editions like Rahlfs'
- specific manuscripts
- maybe some traditional orthodox text, I do not know
b) in Latin
- Vulgate, Old Vulgate
c) in Hebrew
- massoretic text from the 9th century
- dead sea scrolls from the 1st century
d) other old languages
- e.g. Peshitta
Its not something you believe or dont believe, its a fact we must deal with. When we read some current translation of the Bible, its not how it was given historically, but its a work of many compilers and translators who made their decisions what the final text will be.
When you chose one printed translation to read, you chose one specific combination of thousand possibilities.
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tranquil
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Doug you are so close!
If the arbitrarily chosen Bible verse placement had instead read:
Dan 9:27
Then the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations have been decreed. And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week,i but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation,j until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him.
then everyone who wanted to understand would understand Revelation.
The antichrist's 'people' destroy the city & the sanctuary (great tribulation starting at the Trumpets). (This has nothing to do with 70 AD!!).
The antichrist's 'people' destroy the sanctuary at the start of the 6th Trumpet. This is the start of the 2nd woe.
Then after the sanctuary has been attacked, THEN the covenant is confirmed!! (At the start of the 2 witnesses).
The antichrist is pretending to save people from the attacks that he instigated!
The 'locusts' of the 1st Woe are the 'people of the prince to come'!
It really feels like I am not speaking English here.
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Timtofly
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You are missing the point that the prince is still the Messiah.
Your source is a very bad English translation of the LXX. It is not a specific but generic use of the word "it". The "it" is still the Messiah the Prince. Jesus is God. Other translations use the word "he". God is just the person doing the action through the people of the Prince (also God) to come. Jesus as a person is not doing the action, so did not come in 70AD.
So you have to figure out who is the "he". Since the LXX does not even include the original Hebrew about "the people of the prince", as "it" is not true to the original Hebrew. That is a bad translation into the Greek.
"It" is not a good rendition of "the people".
"He" is not a better rendition of "the people".
Why does the LXX change the people to an assumed God? If they are going to imply God, why use "he" or "it"? If you are going to remove "the people" from the original Hebrew, then use a word that defines God clearly.
The emphasis is still on the people who destroys. The LXX just changes that to "it" or "he", but still not the prince to come.
God allows the people to destroy their own city. God is doing the action through those people. So the LXX still does not prove the prince is a Roman. The prince of God is still Jesus the Messiah, and still to come. The prince of "the people", the prince of the "he", or the prince of the "it", is still Jesus no matter what version you use. And Jesus is never the emphasis of the one doing the destruction. So Jesus did not come in 70AD. God was there, and the people of God were there. Jerusalem was destroyed. The Romans were involved but not necessarily mentioned in Daniel 9:26. Josephus was there. He was not mentioned in Daniel 9:26 either, except he was a Jew one of those "people". He claims he was not one involved in the destruction, itself though.
No one should deny God was involved. The issue is always was Jesus referring to 70AD, or His literal actual Second Coming in the OD.
Obviously Jesus is both the Messiah and the Prince to come. Jesus was not present as either Messiah or Prince in 70AD. Those present were the people or God based on one's translation. Obviously both were there. The translation states one or the other. And neither the people nor God are the Romans, who were also there, just not mentioned at all in Scripture.
We talk about faith. If Daniel declared the Romans would be there in the first century to crucify Jesus and destroy Jerusalem, by name, ie literally including them in the text, would history have been different? Would people have concentrated on the Romans to prevent prophecy from happening?
Why today, imply or force the Romans into Daniel 9? Would it make a difference? Can we today change the past?
Rome was the 4th kingdom, the two legs of the image. Yet God allowed His own chosen people to totally reject Jesus and God allowed for the fulness of the Gentiles to happen. Why change history and God's Word to suit human theology? The 70 weeks are not finished, so why today are many deceived just like the first century Jews and declare the 70 weeks finished? They rejected the 70th week in the first century. Now today some reject Jesus is the King/Prince to come to finish the 70th week at the Second Coming.
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Timtofly
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What do you mean by written in both Hebrew and Aramaic? It was written in Greek in the LXX. It was written in Latin eventually.
I am not understanding this point. Are you saying Daniel used both Hebrew and Aramaic, or are you making a claim Daniel did not write Daniel at all. Some one else wrote it after Antiochus Epiphanes lived and died?
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Timtofly
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You are not speaking God's Word either in this post. When Jesus builds His throne and Temple at the Second Coming it will not be destroyed at all. It will simply stop existing when heaven and earth pass away for the NHNE. Jesus will still use the same throne for the next 1,000 years.
It is interesting though as there are several earthquakes mentioned. Revelation 11:13
"And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven."
Revelation 16:18-19
"And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath."
This is the same earthquake in both chapters. Jerusalem is divided into 3 parts. A tenth of the city still fell. But not necessarily the temple was destroyed nor the throne, and no mention of people destroying it, because people themselves were dying and avoiding death, not looking to destroy the city they lived in.
Jerusalem was were Satan ruled from. Why would Satan allow humans to destroy his seat of authority? Certainly over 42 months, Satan has expanded his city and authority bringing many to the area. In that time all with the mark would have been moving closer to that huge power grab by Satan. Only those smart enough would be fleeing the area to escape the abomination and desolation Satan produces.
This earthquake is after those 42 months. It is the end of Satan's futile attempt to play "God". This earthquake sets the stage for Armageddon that day. I think the 2 witnesses are raptured early on a Sunday morning at dawn, the same as Jesus on resurrection Sunday. By 5pm that afternoon, Armageddon is fought for one hour. 6pm starts the first day of the Millennium. By Monday morning Isaiah 65:17-19 happens.
"For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying."
Jesus will then reign for 1,000 years on the same throne he set up before Satan was allowed 42 months of access.
The earthquake just signaled the end of Satan's control and the destruction of Satan's empire. Those alive still gave God the glory, even though they were about to be killed by Jesus and eternally separated from God.
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tranquil
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"You are not speaking God's Word either in this post."
Why don't you refute my argument instead of saying that I am not speaking God's word. It's a bit rude.
"When Jesus builds His throne and Temple at the Second Coming it will not be destroyed at all."
Where did I say anything about Jesus?
The temple that is defiled is the church that Jesus built 2000 years ago.
"This is the same earthquake in both chapters. Jerusalem is divided into 3 parts. A tenth of the city still fell. But not necessarily the temple was destroyed nor the throne, and no mention of people destroying it, because people themselves were dying and avoiding death, not looking to destroy the city they lived in."
These are definitely not the same earthquake. All you have to do is look at the next verse after Revelation 11:13 - it is at the end of the 2nd woe. Rev 11:14 The second woe has passed. Behold, the third woe is coming shortly.
The 3rd woe is the 7th Trumpet. The 7th Trumpet is the 7 Bowls of wrath. Revelation 16:18-19 is the 7th Bowl of wrath. Hopefully, you are able to count better than Doug can. The 2nd woe comes before the 3rd Woe.
The people destroying the temple occurs in the 1st Woe. That's the 5th Trumpet with the 'locusts'. These are the people of the prince to come.
Please read Deuteronomy 28 the curses for disobedience.
38You will sow much seed in the field but harvest little, because the locusts will consume it. 39You will plant and cultivate vineyards, but will neither drink the wine nor gather the grapes, because worms will eat them. [...] 41You will father sons and daughters, but they will not remain yours, because they will go into captivity. 42 Swarms of locusts will consume all your trees and the produce of your land. 43 The foreigner living among you will rise higher and higher above you, while you sink down lower and lower. [...] 45All these curses will come upon you. They will pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, since you did not obey the LORD your God and keep the commandments and statutes He gave you. 46These curses will be a sign and a wonder upon you and your descendants forever. [...] 48you will serve your enemies the LORD will send against you in famine, thirst, nakedness, and destitution. He will place an iron yoke on your neck until He has destroyed you. 49The LORD will bring a nation from afar, from the ends of the earth, to swoop down upon you like an eagle—a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a ruthless nation with no respect for the old and no pity for the young.
51 They will eat the offspring of your livestock and the produce of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain or new wine or oil, no calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks, until they have caused you to perish. 52 They will besiege all the cities throughout your land, until the high and fortified walls in which you trust have fallen. They will besiege all your cities throughout the land that the LORD your God has given you.
51 They will eat the offspring of your livestock and the produce of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain or new wine or oil, no calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks, until they have caused you to perish. 52 They will besiege all the cities throughout your land, until the high and fortified walls in which you trust have fallen. They will besiege all your cities throughout the land that the LORD your God has given you.
God is directly comparing 'locusts' to the foreigners that eat up the land and will attack the 'city' (sound familiar? it's Daniel 9:26's people of the prince to come 'destroying the city'!!!)
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Timtofly
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Your not keeping up either. The second woe was finished in Revelation 9:20-21
"And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts."
That is the end of the 6th Trumpet and 2nd woe. Because we see next:
"And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write:"
So the 7 Thunders happen. There is no going back to the 3rd woe/6 Trumpet, after that point.
Revelation 11:14 is just getting the reader back into the Trumpet soundings. Revelation 11:1-13 is a parenthetical talking about the period after the 7th Trumpet. Revelation 10 is already talking about the 7th Trumpet.
There is only one 42 month period and it is the same period as the 1260 days of the 2 witnesses. That is why it is the same earthquake.
Of course the 2nd woe is passed. It was over before the 7 Thunders. Revelation 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 all cover the 7th Trumpet.
I thought you were quoting another poster.
I would refute their post, if I was actually refuting.
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claninja
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please see post #10. In the LXX, the “it” is not the prince that is coming. The “it” performing the action of the destruction is most likely the “anointed”. “Anointed” is a nominative noun (subject of sentence). The “prince that is coming” is a dative attribute participle, and is thus the means by which the anointed destroys the city and sanctuary. In the LXX, the “prince that is coming” is not the same as the “anointed” based on the grammar.
In the sentence, “the boy (nominative) hits (indicative active) the ball (accusative) with the bat (dative)”, is the bat the same as the boy?
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RandyPNW
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Since Rome basically evolved its tradition to control all Europe I see them as one and the same. Consider Russia's use of Moscow as the "3rd Rome," or use of the phrase "Holy Roman Empire" in the West.
I certainly don't have a problem knowing that Europe is a continent!
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RandyPNW
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I'm well aware. My disagreement is with the idea that the translations present a picture of confusion. Those who wish it to be undecipherable have an agenda, in my opinion. They want to discredit something that is very important to God, in terms of expressing the prophetic element in history. Daniel is unbelievably important in this, and is quite clear in any translation I look at.
Perhaps there is a particular passage that is too conflicting to come to any certain conclusion? You should probably dwell on what passage that is rather than try to characterize the entire book as "for another time?"
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I would like to point a few basic errors being made.
Error 1 - that the covenant to be confirmed for 7 years is the new covenant in Christ.
Correction - the covenant to be confirmed for 7 years is the Mt. Sinai covenant. That was the covenant that Daniel was praying over that his people broke, resulting in the Babylonian captivity.
The for 7 years is in Deuteronomy 31:9-13. The confirmation of the Mt Sinai covenant is the reading of the law to the nation of Israel on the feast of tabernacles from the place of God's choosing - currently held by the Jews to be the temple mount.
__________________________________________________
Error 2 - that there will not be a physical temple built, which the Antichrist will sit in, claiming to have achieved God-hood.
Correction - there will be a physical temple built, downsized to get the animal sacrifices going again, quickly. John was told to measure that temple in Revelation 11. The Jews in Israel are dedicated to its rebuilding.
__________________________________________________
Error 3 - that the Antichrist is a powerful gentile dictator person in the end times. Or that the Antichrist is not a single person. And/or that the Antichrist is office of the papacy.
Correction - the Antichrist will be a Jewish person who the Jews will for a short period of time think is the messiah instead of Jesus. And that person anointed the King of Israel.
__________________________________________________
Error 4 - Referring to person as the Antichrist when he is not actively the King of Israel - but is engaged in other prophecy roles about him, such as being the beast.... without noting it.
Correction - the person as the leader of ten European kings is as the little horn.
the person coming into the middle east and Israel, with a strong army, is as the prince who shall come.
the person anointed the King of Israel coming in his own name is as the Antichrist.
the person going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood is as the revealed man of sin.
the person after being killed and come back to life is as the beast, dictator of the kingdom of the ten European kings, and leader of the western block of nations.
Error 1 - that the covenant to be confirmed for 7 years is the new covenant in Christ.
Correction - the covenant to be confirmed for 7 years is the Mt. Sinai covenant. That was the covenant that Daniel was praying over that his people broke, resulting in the Babylonian captivity.
The for 7 years is in Deuteronomy 31:9-13. The confirmation of the Mt Sinai covenant is the reading of the law to the nation of Israel on the feast of tabernacles from the place of God's choosing - currently held by the Jews to be the temple mount.
__________________________________________________
Error 2 - that there will not be a physical temple built, which the Antichrist will sit in, claiming to have achieved God-hood.
Correction - there will be a physical temple built, downsized to get the animal sacrifices going again, quickly. John was told to measure that temple in Revelation 11. The Jews in Israel are dedicated to its rebuilding.
__________________________________________________
Error 3 - that the Antichrist is a powerful gentile dictator person in the end times. Or that the Antichrist is not a single person. And/or that the Antichrist is office of the papacy.
Correction - the Antichrist will be a Jewish person who the Jews will for a short period of time think is the messiah instead of Jesus. And that person anointed the King of Israel.
__________________________________________________
Error 4 - Referring to person as the Antichrist when he is not actively the King of Israel - but is engaged in other prophecy roles about him, such as being the beast.... without noting it.
Correction - the person as the leader of ten European kings is as the little horn.
the person coming into the middle east and Israel, with a strong army, is as the prince who shall come.
the person anointed the King of Israel coming in his own name is as the Antichrist.
the person going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood is as the revealed man of sin.
the person after being killed and come back to life is as the beast, dictator of the kingdom of the ten European kings, and leader of the western block of nations.
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trophy33
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Before you actually look at the variants as preserved in different traditions and compare them to each other, there is not much more to talk about. Your opinions or disagreements before you do that are not too relevant.
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