Why people reject the reality of Hell

Lazarus Short said:

Time to sum up and boil down what I have written in detail in my published-to-only-a-few book, which runs to well over 200 pages.
1. There is no mention of Hell in God’s Creation of the Cosmos - therefore, Hell is apparently uncreated by God or anyone else. See Genesis 1:1, Isaiah 65:17, Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5. John 1:3 explicitly states that God made all, and that no other person or agency made anything. The Bible contains many instances of “heaven and earth” paired together as a term…without “hell.” You will look in vain for “heaven and hell” or “earth and hell.”
2. In the first chapter of Genesis, it is stated seven times that God saw that what He had made was good, excluding Hell as being possible, as the Creation could not have been wholly good had Hell been in existence. See Genesis 1:4,10,12,18,21,25,31.
3. The Creation as described in Genesis is properly understood as a hierarchy, not a dualistic Heaven versus Hell – with the Earth and humans as a contested prize, fought over by God and Satan. See Genesis 1:1, Job 1 & 2, John 1:3, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 5:13.
4. God made both good and evil, for the same Hand that planted the Tree of Life surely also planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Therefore, Satan did not make or create evil. See Genesis 2:9, Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations 3:38, Amos 3:6.
5. The Bible makes no connection between Satan and Hell, so Satan is NOT the Prince of Hell. See Job 1:6-7, 2:1-2, Zechariah 3:1-2, Revelation 2:13, 12:9.
6. The prince of Tyre in Ezekiel 28 is not Satan, as it specifically refers to him as a man. See Ezekiel 26 - 28.
7. The Law God gave to Moses warned of death, but did not specify punishment in Hell, or warn of it. Punishments were delivered in the real world, and the most severe was simple, ordinary death. See Genesis 2:17, Exodus through Deuteronomy, Romans 6:23.
8. Nearly all the consequences of human disobedience to God are worked out in the real, here-and-now world – not in Hell. This includes death, destruction, perishing, God’s wrath and His cursings. See Deuteronomy 28:15-68, 30:19, Ezekiel 32:32, Romans 13:4. The only exception is the banishment of the unrighteous to the Lake of Fire – but that is for their ultimate salvation, otherwise Death cannot be defeated and God cannot become All in all...as we see in I Corinthians 15.
9. All people die, but none of them go to Eternal Conscious Torment – only to the grave or pit. See every instance of personal death in the Bible, with “hell” (if present) properly replaced with “sheol” or “hades,” as so often noted in the marginal or center-column reference. Keep in mind that “Hades” is a concept from pagan Greek mythology, just like the name of its ruling “god.”
10. For the Hebrews, “sheol,” hidden, covered and unknown, was the state, condition or place of the dead. It was where the body returned to the dust and the spirit returned to God (Who gave it). See Genesis 3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.
11. Eternal Conscious Torment depends on the concept of the Immortality of the Soul, and that comes, not from the Bible, but from Greek philosophy, from Socrates and Plato. It is clearly pagan.
12. Hell, by definition, opposes the Gospel (the Good News) because Hell can only be Bad News for those sent there – and thus, for most of living (and dead) humanity.
13. Hell violates God’s Law, specifically the Law of the Jubilee, which sets all those in servitude free. Those who die are freed from sin, as prophesied by the Law of the Jubilee. See Leviticus 25:8-13, Isaiah 1:18, Romans 6:7,16.
14. The idea of damnation of people to Hell is at least absurd, and possibly blasphemous, due to the presence of God’s Spirit of Life in each of us. See Genesis 1:26-27, 2:7,3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.
15. Hell, like Babylon, is confusion. Hell is hot, but it’s also cold as…Hell. Hell is bright with fire, but it is dark. Hell is separation from God, but Mary K Baxter depicts Jesus touring Hell, chiding the damned. To go to Hell, you must be dead, but to be in Eternal Conscious Torment, you must be alive, but you’re dead, and on and on… Fictional descriptions of Hell, especially as seen in the works of Dante, Milton and Baxter, are clearly fictional and un-Biblical.
16. God’s plan for the wicked is to destroy their wickedness, not to destroy them or send them to Hell. See Psalm 1:6, 7:9, Isaiah 1:18, Jeremiah 3:12, Habakkuk 1:12, Philippians 3:21, Hebrews 10:26-27.
17. God speaks of ransoming/redeeming ALL from death and the grave – without exception. See Psalm 49:15, Ezekiel 16:55, Romans 6:23, Ephesians 1:10.
18. God is both willing AND able to save all. Given that He is omnipotent, we can ALL look forward with confidence to our eventual salvation. See Psalm 49:15, 86:13, 103:8-14, 136, Isaiah 1:18, 6:7, 25:7-8, 26:19, 33:24, 43:25, 44:22, 45:8, 55:8-9, 57:16, 64:6-9, Jeremiah 3:12. Lamentations 3:26-32, Ezekiel 11:19, 16:55, Hosea 13:14, Micah 4:5, 7:18-19, Ephesians 1:10, Philipians 3:21, Colossians 1:19-20, I Thessalonians 1:10, I Timothy 1:15, 2:4-6, 4:10, 6:13, II Peter 3:9.
19. God compares Himself to a cleansing or refining agent – usually as Fire, but sometimes as Soap. Therefore, all instances of supernatural fire should be interpreted as being for refining and/or purification, not damnation. Fire in the Bible is never “Hellfire,” but natural fire or God’s Fire. See Malachi 3:2-3, Matthew 3:10-12, I Corinthians 3:15.
20. If God’s Fire is for baptism and refining, then that which is burned must be our carnal, sinful nature. It is symbolized by unfruitful trees, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble – by anything unable to endure the Fire. See Matthew 3:10-12, I Corinthians 3:11-15.
21. “Hell” is used in the King James Version (and others) to replace four other words: “Sheol,” “Hades,” “Gehenna” and “Tartarus.” None of these refer to a place of damnation or Eternal Conscious Torment. See any decent dictionary, especially the Oxford English Dictionary.
22. When we dig out mistranslations and peel away misinterpretations, we find that Hell is an imposition, an insertion into the text. With Hell so deconstructed, the Bible and God are both silent on Hell. See Numbers 23:19, John 14:2. With that out of the way, we can see clear to the salvation of all.
23. Christians should not follow the Hell of the ancient, pagan religions, such as the “Hel” we find in Norse mythology, but follow the truth of God’s Word, which does not contain either the concept of Hell or even the word “hell,” except in imperfect translations.

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BobRyan said:

Well in vs Rev 20:9 we have "consumed" NLT and "devoured" KJV/NKJV/NASB applied to all the wicked - in terms of their death in that fire that comes down out of heaven.

9 And I saw them as they went up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded God’s people and the beloved city. But fire from heaven came down on the attacking armies and consumed them. (NLT)

9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. NASB

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. KJV


And you and I might be satisfied to then say -- 'yeah and that is what we see in Matt 10:28'
28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

IF that is all we had - we might even say "so why all the fuss -- it is very clear".

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But then someone may say "yes but what about the devil in Rev 20?" is he also to be consumed or does he get eternal life in the lake of fire?

10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

My first response is the Ezek 28 already spells out the "turned to ashes.. you will be no more forever" ending for the devil.

Ezek 28:

On the day that you were created
They were prepared.
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 “You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

So at this point - I am not entirely sure we do not know that the devil himself is destoryed, turned to ashes, ceases to be forever.... at the end of that lake of fire event.

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BobRyan said:

John uses the term "lake of fire" instead of "hell". Revelation was written by the Apostle John.

Still it is the place where the wicked are "consumed" / "Devoured" according to John -- in fire and brimstone.



You have never read that anyone survives being consumed/devoured in that lake of fire in the Bible.
You never quote a single text saying that anyone emerges from fiery Ghenna or from the lake of fire - because there is not one.

No one has a text saying that someone went to the lake of fire and came back -- and is a better person for it.




No text says

• men go into "the lake of fire"/ "fiery ghenna" , their dross, chaff, tares, wood, hay and stubble get burned away, and they emerge fit for the Kingdom

Rather you have one text that says DOCTRINE is subjected to having wood,hay,stubble removed.

By not actually quoting the text - you are rendering it in a way that can't be found in scripture.



True . They will feel like he must be speaking of a kind of purgatory not realizing that the statement he makes cannot be found in scripture because he has blended the idea of purgatory with a few selected snipped words out of a sentence in a text of scripture.

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Lazarus Short said:

... Again, close but no banana. ...

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Trivalee said:

Hell is real. Eternity in heaven and eternal torment in hell is the cornerstone of the Christian faith -anyone who denies this is not a Christian - period!

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Trivalee said:

People like you should be banned for promoting this tripe. Seriously! You have no place in a Christian forum.

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Lazarus Short said:

Looking at the thread again, and in particular, the thread title, I think it could/should be reworded as "Why people believe in the reality of Hell."
I can think of a few reasons:
Dualistic thinking, as in God versus Satan, Good versus Evil and Heaven versus Hell. I speculate people think like that as a result of Adam & Eve having eaten the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of GOOD and EVIL. When evil is dealt with and ended, we will think properly again...in the new Earth.
It says so in the Bible. Maybe in your translation/version, but as time goes on, the word "hell" is showing up less and less in new versions. Dozens of versions do not have the word at all. "Hell" in its various spelligs and pronunciations is found in many old languages of (then) pagan northern and wester Europe. It is NOT found in Latin, Greek or Hebrew. Get it? If we were all educated enough to read in Greek & Hebrew, we would hardly be aware of the concept or word. Yet some, even right here on CF, have stated that belief in the place is the cornerstone of Christianity. Where does that leave Jesus the Christ?
"Hell" is attractive to those with a keen sense of carnal eye-for-an-eye justice. They forget that God prefers (based on all that I have read in the Bible) mercy to revenge or what we like to call "justice." The same God, as part of His justice, sent His Son to die for our benefit. Think on that, please. Jesus Himself drew the line at the "the last penny," so how could this be extended to eternal conscious torment in the fires of hell? As Paul might have said, it is excluded.
An all-too-human desire to be among the elect, even to the point of relishing the deaths of most of humanity. I see that as a sin. John the Baptist, when he saw Jesus, stated that here was the Lamb of God, Who takes away the sin (not sinners) of the world. Let's not make him out to be a liar.
There are probably more reasons, but that's it for now...

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Lazarus Short said:

Ho Hum - try First Corinthians 3:15
Further, if anyone is still dead and/or in "hell," explain to me how God makes the famous boast in First Corinthians 15:55.
Even further, explain to me how God becomes All in all (First Corinthians 15:28) if anyone is still dead and/or in "hell."

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wendykvw said:

Continued part 2:
Paul, who persecuted the church, has a revelation on the road to Damascus. He didn't seek out Christ willingly and had no intention of coming to Faith in Christ. Paul discloses to the Galatian Church that he has come to understand the faithfulness of Christ. Paul is indicating that the Faithfulness of Christ saved him! Imagine the transformation of Paul, who was a teacher of the law, Paul was accustomed to living under the sacrificial rituals of the old covenant. In the old covenant, intercession was required; "Day after day every priest stands to minister and to offer again and again the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins." (Heb 10:11) Paul discovers a new revelation on the road to Damascus, the new covenant of Grace. And Paul writes to Timothy;
" ..Even though I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an arrogant man. But I received mercy because I acted out of ignorance in unbelief".(1 Timothy 1:13)
how many people today do the very same thing? Many do. But it is out of their ignorance. What happened, Paul received mercy. Amazing Grace.
Many have been taught that redemption is limited to those who seek it...and Christ only intercedes for those who accept Him, but Paul didn't fit into any of these categories.
"I revealed Myself to those who did not ask for Me; I was found by those who did not seek Me. I said, 'Here I am! Here I am!'
... (Isaiah 65:1)
"So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. "( Romans 9:16)

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Der Alte said:

Trying again.

Every verse you mentioned happened in this life. Not after death.

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wendykvw said:

Irrelevant. The point is that Paul was shown mercy.
Paul was as far away from Christ as anyone could be.
…..I received mercy because I acted out of ignorance in unbelief".(1 Timothy 1:13)
How many people today do the very same thing? Many, many are just as hate filled as Paul was, he was shown mercy because that is who God is…it was not Paul’s humility or willingness but quite frankly Christ knocking sense into Paul’s suborn ignorant attitude.
Remove the flesh, and allow the spirit to speak.
"I revealed Myself to those who did not ask for Me; I was found by those who did not seek Me. I said, 'Here I am! Here I am!'
Isaiah 65:1
"So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. "
( Romans 9:16)

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Der Alte said:

Saying "irrelevant" does not make it so. Anybody can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective vss. as you have done.
None of those vss, refute the words of Jesus Himself.

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”​

Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Who better than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, the translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted below, know the correct meaning of the Greek words in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46 and the 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[ κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.​

Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios” as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18. Some folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.” However, according to the EOB Greek scholars it means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.
…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek is different than koine Greek but I am confident that the Greek speaking EOB scholars are competent enough to know the correct meanings of old words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer used and translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of archaic words which occur in the KJV and translate them correctly.
“aionios” occurs 79x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 3 times in the N.T. [.03%]
“aionios” is correctly translated eternal 42 times in the N.T. [53%]
“aionios” is correctly translated everlasting 25 times in the N.T. [35%]
Jesus used “aionios” twenty-eight [28] times, 26% of the total. Jesus never used “aionios” to refer something common, ordinary or mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”
= = = = = = = = = =
Juxtapose means, the act or an instance of placing two or more things side by side often to compare or contrast.
…..Some people claim that “aionios” never means eternity/eternal/everlasting because it sometimes refers to something which is not/cannot be eternal, e.g. “world,””age.” etc.
However, “aionios” is never defined/described, by adjectives or descriptive phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament, as in the following 24 verses.
…..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times. He never used “aionios” to refer to anything common, ordinary or mundane that was not or could not be eternal.

John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] life, and they shall never
[εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα/ eis ton aiona][lit. unto eternity] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aiona” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice! Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, forever, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, book of Romans, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” Thus in this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.

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wendykvw said:

No, it is irrelevant because I was not referring to mercy beyond the grave. Paul was fully alive. I am full aware of your position and as you know or may have forgotten, I believed the view you support for 30 yrs. I no longer hold to that view…Why? God opened my eyes through scripture and illuminated my error. So, no man or women will change my mind.

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Der Alte said:

I had sporadically attended Sunday School as a child. I have been a Christian only since LBJ was president, I was in my mid 20s on my way to Viet Nam. Unlike many I did not "grow up" in any denomination. I had no preconceptions to get rid of. I was pretty much a clean slate.
Since your eyes have been opened please feel free to show me my errors.

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wendykvw said:

...Until one day I encountered a JW. I was not very kind and later God spoke to me about it. Long story short He transformed my attitude that He loves everyone. Even the ones that believed differently. He told me His Grace covers all errors, ignorance etc. Long story short I limited God by my own ignorance.

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• I agree He loves everyone even those who believe differently. To understand I am quoting a few things you posted.

• I too don't see annihilation view as scriptural. For me I am being molded in my journey with following Christ. He speaks to me as do the scriptures.

• Grace is for everyone who accepts it, believes (trust and rely on) Jesus as He is the only way to truth and God's life which sets us free.
• Jesus revealed to Paul and Paul made a choice to believe Jesus and wait 3 days with no food or water, by choice. He could of left or ate. He did it out of belief of Jesus was Lord, also why he chose to be baptized too.

• I know this question was for someone else. I see the lake of fire referenced with 'second death'. So together they give meaning. In Rev 2:1 Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death. So believers will not be part of this.
• devil, beast, false prophet in Rev 20 put in "lake of fire and brimstone" and "tormented day and night forever".
• second death to me is with connection to first death, separation from God when Adam and Eve in garden, so that death came by being not with God in connection.
• lake of fire is second death, being a location without God, opposite of fruit of the spirit there, truly a place of torment every day.

Kylism said:

• I agree He loves everyone even those who believe differently. To understand I am quoting a few things you posted.

"Yes, if we take that verse alone (referring to Rev 20:11-15) it can support Endless suffering , annihilation or even divine judgment/purging away the dross. However, when combined with other such passages of God’s nature and character, and the abolishment of suffering, and death I pause on what this one verse is teaching. I would say, I still am not convinced of any particular view..."

"Like the eternal conscience torment view/eternal separation, the annihilation view is not consistent with the covenant of Grace."

• I too don't see annihilation view as scriptural. For me I am being molded in my journey with following Christ. He speaks to me as do the scriptures.

"The point is that Paul was shown mercy. 'I revealed Myself to those who did not ask for Me; I was found by those who did not seek Me. I said, 'Here I am! Here I am!' (Isaiah 65:1)"

• Grace is for everyone who accepts it, believes (trust and rely on) Jesus as He is the only way to truth and God's life which sets us free.
• Jesus revealed to Paul and Paul made a choice to believe Jesus and wait 3 days with no food or water, by choice. He could of left or ate. He did it out of belief of Jesus was Lord, also why he chose to be baptized too.

"How do you interpret the lake of fire, and the fire prepared for the devil and his angels?"

• I know this question was for someone else. I see the lake of fire referenced with 'second death'. So together they give meaning. In Rev 2:1 Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death. So believers will not be part of this.
• devil, beast, false prophet in Rev 20 put in "lake of fire and brimstone" and "tormented day and night forever".
• second death to me is with connection to first death, separation from God when Adam and Eve in garden, so that death came by being not with God in connection.
• lake of fire is second death, being a location without God, opposite of fruit of the spirit there, truly a place of torment every day.

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