John 8:24 why are you still in your sins if you do not believe that Jesus is God?

PeterDona

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 13, 2010
742
181
Denmark
✟348,585.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
Peace in the name of Christ

I have had a study / discussion with 2 friends who are JW on the topic of the Trinity. During this discussion I threw in John 8, and more specifically John 8:24 as a prooftext to why it is necessary to believe that Jesus is in fact God.

John 8:24 (kjv)
“I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.”

Now that is a nice prooftext to throw onto the table. And my JW friends had no answer, neither on the day, nor later, as to what that verse meant. I have since then started to wonder: how is it, that failing to believe that Jesus is God (or of divine nature) will make it impossible to escape our sins?

I have found that there is one parallel statement in 1 cor 15:17
“And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.”

I have a thought, that this may correspond with Romans 4:25
“Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.”

Alright, so there are some ways to go about this question

(1) maybe take a look at the context of john 8. Since it comes after the great statements of “I am the bread of life” (6:35), “whoever believes in me out of his belly shall run rivers of living water” (7:37) and more like that, maybe it is a summary that all those things are accessed only by faith in Jesus as being divine?

(2) maybe go into the OT prophecies about the messiah, maybe the statement is not really about needing to believe in Jesus’ divinity, but about believing that Jesus is THAT messiah / that prophet.

Alright, I hope this can give you a start, and maybe see how this is interesting. For me, at least partly, it is about being able to give a reasonable layout of the John 8:24 verse and the principle behind it.

Regards, Peter
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jesus is YHWH

wendykvw

Author, and Patristic Universalist Minister
Mar 24, 2011
1,166
719
56
Colorado
✟4,320.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Peace in the name of Christ

I have had a study / discussion with 2 friends who are JW on the topic of the Trinity. During this discussion I threw in John 8, and more specifically John 8:24 as a prooftext to why it is necessary to believe that Jesus is in fact God.

John 8:24 (kjv)
“I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.”

Now that is a nice prooftext to throw onto the table. And my JW friends had no answer, neither on the day, nor later, as to what that verse meant. I have since then started to wonder: how is it, that failing to believe that Jesus is God (or of divine nature) will make it impossible to escape our sins?

I have found that there is one parallel statement in 1 cor 15:17
“And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.”

I have a thought, that this may correspond with Romans 4:25
“Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.”

Alright, so there are some ways to go about this question

(1) maybe take a look at the context of john 8. Since it comes after the great statements of “I am the bread of life” (6:35), “whoever believes in me out of his belly shall run rivers of living water” (7:37) and more like that, maybe it is a summary that all those things are accessed only by faith in Jesus as being divine?

(2) maybe go into the OT prophecies about the messiah, maybe the statement is not really about needing to believe in Jesus’ divinity, but about believing that Jesus is THAT messiah / that prophet.

Alright, I hope this can give you a start, and maybe see how this is interesting. For me, at least partly, it is about being able to give a reasonable layout of the John 8:24 verse and the principle behind it.

Regards, Peter

Showing this verse will cause them to think about their denial of the divinity of Christ. That is a good thing. Believing in the divinity of Christ brings about a change of heart, and the spiritual birth required of God. “Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, unless you are born again, you cannot see the Kingdom of God.” John 3:3

Salvation comes through Christ alone. Having faith in Him will transform those who trust and walk with Him leading to righteousness.

And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no distinction. Romans 3:22
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,575
6,063
EST
✟991,946.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The JW refer to their members who go about distributing their literature and their "message" as "publishers." My brief encounter with 2 JW "publishers" several years ago I concluded that they are not open to free exchange of ideas. They want to dominate the discussion and resist any counter discussion.
I was working in the far east, Korea, for the U.S. military. I belonged to an English language church some of the men met every Saturday on base for breakfast and Bible study. By and by two JWs started sitting in. They were open to Bible study but when I said I would like to talk about the JW book "What the Bible Really Teaches" which I happened to have. They were very adamant about not doing so. They stopped meeting with us.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PeterDona
Upvote 0

d taylor

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2018
10,550
4,684
59
Mississippi
✟247,996.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
-
Jesus took away the sin of the world on the cross. That is, forgiving every human who ever live of all of their sins. So when they die and are judged they are not sent to the lake of fire because of their sins committed on earth. They go to the lake of fire because they never trusted in the Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life.

That is known because they are judged for their works (for their eventual position in the lake of fire) and when their name is checked to be in the Book of Life, it is found to not be in the book. So off to the lake of fire they go, the only place a person who does not have God's Eternal Life can go.

Now this is what I believe John 8:24 is saying the people in the lake of fire will remain a sinner for all of eternity. Unlike believers who receive God's free gift of Eternal Life, who will after their earthly life is over, will be sin free for all of eternity.
 
Upvote 0

PeterDona

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 13, 2010
742
181
Denmark
✟348,585.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
Showing this verse will cause them to think about their denial of the divinity of Christ. That is a good thing. Believing in the divinity of Christ brings about a change of heart, and the spiritual birth required of God. “Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, unless you are born again, you cannot see the Kingdom of God.” John 3:3

Salvation comes through Christ alone. Having faith in Him will transform those who trust and walk with Him leading to righteousness.

And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no distinction. Romans 3:22
Yes, so, the new birth, as discussed in John 3, would also provide the background material for a statement made in John 8. I think that could be a sound reasoning.

And while we are on the topic of the new birth, I did find an interesting scripture on it, that sort of combines the physical action with the spiritual action.
Acts 22:16 "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."
I myself received, lets say an experience, in 1996 when I asked Jesus to be my Lord. I think that happens to many people today. It is a whole topic in itself how it comes that people now are born again by making Jesus Lord. I heard that such was unheard of before around 1800. But anyway, it seems that baptism is not complete until Jesus becomes Lord and God of our life.

And also on this topic, I was so intrigued by their interest in the Bible, that last time we talked I had to ask them if that was a result of being born again. But the answer I got was a bit more moderate. It seemed that their interest simply came out of the necessity to learn the Bible. So apparently not a desire to learn the Word, but simply being compelled by logic to do it. So for me, a strong renewal of your relation to the Word is part of being born again (see e.g. John 16:13), but I did not find this testimony with them, even if I had maybe started to expect it.
 
Upvote 0

wendykvw

Author, and Patristic Universalist Minister
Mar 24, 2011
1,166
719
56
Colorado
✟4,320.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Yes, so, the new birth, as discussed in John 3, would also provide the background material for a statement made in John 8. I think that could be a sound reasoning.

And while we are on the topic of the new birth, I did find an interesting scripture on it, that sort of combines the physical action with the spiritual action.
Acts 22:16 "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."
I myself received, lets say an experience, in 1996 when I asked Jesus to be my Lord. I think that happens to many people today. It is a whole topic in itself how it comes that people now are born again by making Jesus Lord. I heard that such was unheard of before around 1800. But anyway, it seems that baptism is not complete until Jesus becomes Lord and God of our life.

And also on this topic, I was so intrigued by their interest in the Bible, that last time we talked I had to ask them if that was a result of being born again. But the answer I got was a bit more moderate. It seemed that their interest simply came out of the necessity to learn the Bible. So apparently not a desire to learn the Word, but simply being compelled by logic to do it. So for me, a strong renewal of your relation to the Word is part of being born again (see e.g. John 16:13), but I did not find this testimony with them, even if I had maybe started to expect it.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and the direction the spirit of God is leading you. Is is great that you are able to have a trusting and open conversation. Did they mention anything about the new world translation? I believe they have their own translation of the Bible.
 
Upvote 0

Susie~Q

John 3:16 God bless you.
Supporter
Jan 26, 2011
13,291
2,879
South Island-New Zealand
✟271,351.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Jesus exist whether you believe in Him or not. Jesus died for ALL of our sins, but if you don't believe in Him, then you are still in sin because you haven't asked Him into your life to cleanse and forgive you of all your sins. Not believing Jesus is God is a sin, because not believing does not make Him non-existent. Here is an example: I can say "I don't believe in my husband", but he still exists, not believing does not make my husband him non-existent.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Think...
Upvote 0

bmjackson

Newbie
Supporter
Aug 10, 2007
979
325
UK
✟293,276.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Not much chance of getting through to JW's by arguing Bible verses.

I am having an email discussion with one woman who is listening I think and now wants to meet up as I am taking the approach of showing her how her organization's teaching differs from that of the early church.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
13,886
3,525
✟320,715.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Peace in the name of Christ

I have had a study / discussion with 2 friends who are JW on the topic of the Trinity. During this discussion I threw in John 8, and more specifically John 8:24 as a prooftext to why it is necessary to believe that Jesus is in fact God.

John 8:24 (kjv)
“I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.”

Now that is a nice prooftext to throw onto the table. And my JW friends had no answer, neither on the day, nor later, as to what that verse meant. I have since then started to wonder: how is it, that failing to believe that Jesus is God (or of divine nature) will make it impossible to escape our sins?

I have found that there is one parallel statement in 1 cor 15:17
“And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.”

I have a thought, that this may correspond with Romans 4:25
“Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.”

Alright, so there are some ways to go about this question

(1) maybe take a look at the context of john 8. Since it comes after the great statements of “I am the bread of life” (6:35), “whoever believes in me out of his belly shall run rivers of living water” (7:37) and more like that, maybe it is a summary that all those things are accessed only by faith in Jesus as being divine?

(2) maybe go into the OT prophecies about the messiah, maybe the statement is not really about needing to believe in Jesus’ divinity, but about believing that Jesus is THAT messiah / that prophet.

Alright, I hope this can give you a start, and maybe see how this is interesting. For me, at least partly, it is about being able to give a reasonable layout of the John 8:24 verse and the principle behind it.

Regards, Peter
Scripture tells us that when we see Jesus, we see God, and that He’s the express image of God. We have no other way of knowing the full true God except as He’s revealed through the person of Jesus Christ, in His every word and deed. That’s the God we must believe in, that’s the only God worth believing in.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,939
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,674.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Peace in the name of Christ

I have had a study / discussion with 2 friends who are JW on the topic of the Trinity. During this discussion I threw in John 8, and more specifically John 8:24 as a prooftext to why it is necessary to believe that Jesus is in fact God.

John 8:24 (kjv)
“I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.”

Now that is a nice prooftext to throw onto the table. And my JW friends had no answer, neither on the day, nor later, as to what that verse meant. I have since then started to wonder: how is it, that failing to believe that Jesus is God (or of divine nature) will make it impossible to escape our sins?

I have found that there is one parallel statement in 1 cor 15:17
“And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.”

I have a thought, that this may correspond with Romans 4:25
“Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.”

Alright, so there are some ways to go about this question

(1) maybe take a look at the context of john 8. Since it comes after the great statements of “I am the bread of life” (6:35), “whoever believes in me out of his belly shall run rivers of living water” (7:37) and more like that, maybe it is a summary that all those things are accessed only by faith in Jesus as being divine?

(2) maybe go into the OT prophecies about the messiah, maybe the statement is not really about needing to believe in Jesus’ divinity, but about believing that Jesus is THAT messiah / that prophet.

Alright, I hope this can give you a start, and maybe see how this is interesting. For me, at least partly, it is about being able to give a reasonable layout of the John 8:24 verse and the principle behind it.

Regards, Peter
You are still "in your sins," meaning your sin has not been forgiven by faith in Jesus Christ and his atoning sacrifice which remits them, therefore, you remain condemned (Romans 5:18).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

PeterDona

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 13, 2010
742
181
Denmark
✟348,585.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
You are still "in your sins," meaning your sin has not been forgiven by faith in Jesus Christ and, therefore, you remain condemned (Romans 5:18).
So let me try to be precise. This is the point.
The jw will say "we believe in Jesus". Even to the point of saying he is a god.
So how is it that this disqualifies them?
We can discuss, that the Church later made it mandatory to believe in the Trinity. But we are talking about how to argue from Scripture. And i am not even sure I know the reason why the separating line here is so sharp.
 
Upvote 0

Sophrosyne

Let Your Light Shine.. Matt 5:16
Jun 21, 2007
163,213
64,206
In God's Amazing Grace
✟895,522.00
Faith
Christian
There is a difference between knowing what the bible says and rejecting the truth and being ignorant of what the bible says and/or being unsure about things. For a long time I never heard about the trinity even before that I was confronted with "Jesus IS God" and struggled for perhaps close to a year trying to truly accept it. It isn't tantamount to Christianity to believe in the deity of Jesus, but as you mature in faith it can become a stumbling block to the deeper things that essentially require a believe in Jesus' deity and the trinity also.

If Jesus not being God is your only stumbling block, but you believe you are saved by the Gospel and you don't reject others as "Christian" who do believe the trinity like the JWs..... they reject trinitarians as Christian and teach people to NOT believe in Jesus' deity leading them farther from the truth.

If you consider there is a lot of things in Christianity that people simply accept but have not understood or explored why they should believe.... when they do question things is when they can grow in faith.... those who reject Jesus' deity it can greatly weaken their faith in the power of God to save us..... also if only a "perfect" man died for us and NOT God...... then the sacrifice is inferior to that of God sacrificing himself on the cross.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,939
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,674.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
So let me try to be precise. This is the point.
The jw will say "we believe in Jesus". Even to the point of saying he is a god.
So how is it that this disqualifies them?

We can discuss, that the Church later made it mandatory to believe in the Trinity. But we are talking about how to argue from Scripture. And i am not even sure I know the reason why the separating line here is so sharp.
Do they believe in and trust on his atoning work (blood, Romans 3:25) for the remission of their sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty"?
That is saving faith.

If they do not believe in the Trinity, they are not orthodox Christians.
Whether they are saved or not is up to God.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Guojing

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2019
11,773
1,309
sg
✟214,746.00
Country
Singapore
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I have since then started to wonder: how is it, that failing to believe that Jesus is God (or of divine nature) will make it impossible to escape our sins?

I have found that there is one parallel statement in 1 cor 15:17
“And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.”

I have a thought, that this may correspond with Romans 4:25
“Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.”

Regards, Peter

A lot of confusion will be clarified if one is willing to rightly divide the word of truth, between time past and but now.

Time past

In Jesus's first coming, which was time past, the gospel that saves is the gospel of the kingdom. It is directed to Israel only and is based on the identity of God.

John 8:24 can be better understood by cross referencing it with John 20:31.

So if anyone from the nation of Israel refuse to believe that Jesus is the Son of God, they will not receive life and die from their sin.

But now

But now, the gospel that saves is the gospel of the grace of God preached by Paul to everybody alive now.

So if anyone refuse to believe that Christ has died for their sins and rose again for their justification, as you quoted from Romans 4:25, yes, they too will not receive life and die from their sin.
 
Upvote 0

PeterDona

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 13, 2010
742
181
Denmark
✟348,585.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
Yes, there may be some connection between Christ and God.

The jewish canonical scriptures - the Old Testament - had things to say about the coming Messiah. And one of these is that the Messiah would be not just an earthly messiah, but also a divine Messiah. This I glean from psalm 45

45 My heart is inditing a good matter: I speak of the things which I have made touching the king: my tongue is the pen of a ready writer.
2 Thou art fairer than the children of men: grace is poured into thy lips: therefore God hath blessed thee for ever.
3 Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty.
4 And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.
5 Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee.
6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
8 All thy garments smell of myrrh, and aloes, and cassia, out of the ivory palaces, whereby they have made thee glad.
9 Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women: upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir.
10 Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear; forget also thine own people, and thy father's house;
11 So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he is thy Lord; and worship thou him.
12 And the daughter of Tyre shall be there with a gift; even the rich among the people shall intreat thy favour.
13 The king's daughter is all glorious within: her clothing is of wrought gold.
14 She shall be brought unto the king in raiment of needlework: the virgins her companions that follow her shall be brought unto thee.
15 With gladness and rejoicing shall they be brought: they shall enter into the king's palace.
16 Instead of thy fathers shall be thy children, whom thou mayest make princes in all the earth.
17 I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever and ever.


I believe one can grasp quite a few concepts from this messianic psalm. That the psalm is messianic is seen especially in verse 7, where there is spoken of someone who is anointed more than others. The word for 'anointed' is the hebrew 4886 maschach, which is the same word used in Daniel 9:24 "To anoint the most Holy". And the rest of that verse is also very messianic.

We also see that the Messiah seems to be not only God, but that he also has a God.

And we see, that a marriage is ordained for the Messiah.

Maybe, what Jesus is saying in John 8:24 is a condensed version of Daniel 9:24 and Psalm 45:7, namely if I may paraphrase my thought here
"If you do not believe that I am that anointed divine Messiah who shall "make an end of sin and make reconciliation for iniquity" (Daniel 9:24), then there is no other way out of your sin. This is your one chance, and if you do not take it, there is not another way to achieve everlasting righteousness."

I want to just round off this post by mentioning, that psalm 45:6-7 is referred in hebrews 1:8-9 , so that I can say with some weight that this psalm (45) is a central passage with respect to both understanding the Messiah and understanding the Holy Trinity. I have not seen Daniel 9:24 referenced in NT, which I would expect if my understanding here is correct. Maayyyybe it is, that messianic expectations were so familiar to everyone jewish at that time, that the NT writers did not find it meaningful to go into such details?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Think...
Upvote 0

Mr. M

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2020
8,129
3,211
Prescott, Az
✟36,927.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Peace in the name of Christ

I have had a study / discussion with 2 friends who are JW on the topic of the Trinity. During this discussion I threw in John 8, and more specifically John 8:24 as a prooftext to why it is necessary to believe that Jesus is in fact God.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

PeterDona

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 13, 2010
742
181
Denmark
✟348,585.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Thanks Monardo,
but I think my question goes a tad deeper. Namely,
(1) why is it necessary to BELIEVE?
(2) why must the object of belief be that JESUS IS GOD?
I think this is what needs to be answered, very good if it can be answered based on OT revelation about faith and OT revelation about the messiah being God.

So I think my question is trying to search the deep machinery of Scripture, searching the key messianic passages and perhaps key passages about faith.

But actually also, there is the question of the composition of the gospel of John. When we have gotten to John 8, what key questions have we already confronted?
(1) Jesus being the one promised by Moses ch1
(2) Jesus bringing the new wine ch2, a messianic sign
(3) Jesus claiming to function as the snake that was raised on a pole by Moses ch3
(4) Jesus giving living water ch4
(5) Jesus opening a way of salvation by faith ch5
(6) Jesus being the bread that comes from heaven ch6
(7) Jesus bringing the Spirit that shall run with living waters ch7
(8) maybe summing all this up John 8:12 "I am the light of the world"
and then the statement "if you do not believe that I AM, you are still in your sins" John 8:24

Just throwing this up for consideration, if noone else step in, hopefully soon I may by the grace of God be able to see the answer.
 
Upvote 0