Objections to Sola Scriptura?

Presbyterian Continuist

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For one thing it was the church that not only handed them down, but determined which were fit (inspired) to be in the canon of Scripture and which were not. But that's not game-over either. Because Scripture must be understood and interpreted correctly. And there are many different opinions, understandings, and interpretations of Scripture based on merely reading it whereas the church always understood it also in light of the teachings and practices that were handed down and preached before any of the New Testament was even written.
A reasonable general statement. Got any specific examples?
Your response sounds like a copout, since it doesn't indicate an additional option to your liking.
Choosing one of those options would just give you ammunition to try and shoot me down.
 
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JAL

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Choosing one of those options would just give you ammunition to try and shoot me down.
Huh? Read it again. The last post asked you to supply an ADDITIONAL option as a fourth option - one of your choosing that you subscribe to.

I shouldn't have needed to ask for this in the first place. Yet, now that you've burned a second opportunity to specify your position (as a fourth option), it's beginning to look like deflection/ dodging.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Church government, the liturgy, the canon of scripture were all handed down by example primarily.
I don't understand how those three are actual teaching that was handed down from the Apostles. I thought that it was the Church that decided on them. When the Apostles were alive, there was no established Church, but a series of home churches. The organised Church didn't happen until Constantine in the 4th Century. The liturgy was not put in place until church services were conducted by clergy appointed by the Church, and the canon of Scripture was not established until well into the 2nd Century and was determined by a council of Church bishops. So I don't see any direct connection between the Apostles' teaching as set out in the New Testament and those three elements that were set up by the church well after the death of the last Apostle. Therefore I conclude that the evidence shows that the Church says that the three elements were the Apostle's teaching when they were installed by the Church and made it to appear that they was handed down from the Apostles.
 
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eleos1954

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Are you reflecting the teaching of Christ and the apostles in these statements?

Proverbs 21:2
Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the Lord weighs the heart.

Galatians 6

6 Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.

Luke 15

15 Now the tax collectors and sinners were all drawing near to hear him. 2 And the Pharisees and the scribes grumbled, saying, “This man receives sinners and eats with them.”

3 So he told them this parable: 4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it?

2 Timothy 2:24-26

And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

If a person is refusing to repent or causing divisions, while they still may be allowed to attend the local church (remember the goal is hopefully they will repent) this person should not be allowed to serve in ministry, and they should not be in any leadership position.

It's a "sticky wicket", but I think extreme patience should be taken.
 
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eleos1954

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Are you reflecting the teaching of Christ and the apostles in these statements?

Proverbs 21:2
Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the Lord weighs the heart.

Galatians 6

6 Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.

Luke 15

15 Now the tax collectors and sinners were all drawing near to hear him. 2 And the Pharisees and the scribes grumbled, saying, “This man receives sinners and eats with them.”

3 So he told them this parable: 4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it?

2 Timothy 2:24-26

And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

If a person is refusing to repent or causing divisions, while they still may be allowed to attend the local church (remember the goal is hopefully they will repent) this person should not be allowed to serve in ministry, and they should not be in any leadership position.

It's a "sticky wicket", but I think extreme patience should be taken.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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I thought that it was the Church that decided on them.
The Church did decide the canon of scripture using Apostolic tradition handed down through the individual churches, their liturgical readings, and the use of the books in teaching the doctrine of Christ and the Apostles to catechumens.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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It's a "sticky wicket", but I think extreme patience should be taken.
Is it "a sticky wicket"? ;-)

Of course you and I both know that Jesus never taught "sola scriptura" nor did the Apostles of the Lord, nor the bishops and elders in the first Churches.
 
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eleos1954

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Is it "a sticky wicket"? ;-)

Of course you and I both know that Jesus never taught "sola scriptura" nor did the Apostles of the Lord, nor the bishops and elders in the first Churches.

Yes He/they did.

Matthew 21:42; Matthew 12:3, 5; Matthew 19:4; Matthew 22:31; Mark 12:10, 26; Luke 6:3; Matthew 24:15; and Mark 13:14.

Not to mention Jesus using the written word of God to rebuke satan when He was tempted by him.

The Bible declares itself to be God-breathed, inerrant, and authoritative. We also know that God does not change His mind or contradict Himself. So, while the Bible itself may not explicitly argue for sola scriptura, it most definitely does not allow for traditions or teachings that contradict its message.

Sola scriptura
is not as much of an argument against tradition as it is an argument against unbiblical, extra-biblical and/or anti-biblical doctrines. The only way to know for sure what God expects of us is to stay true to what we know He has revealed—in the Bible. We can know, beyond the shadow of any doubt, that Scripture is true, authoritative, and reliable. The same cannot be said of tradition.

The Word of God is the only authority for the Christian faith. Traditions are valid only when they are based on Scripture and are in full agreement with Scripture.

Traditions that contradict the Bible are not of God and are not a valid aspect of the Christian faith. Sola scriptura is the only way to avoid subjectivity and keep personal opinion from taking priority over the teachings of the Bible.

The essence of sola scriptura is basing our spiritual life on the Bible alone and rejecting any tradition or teaching that is not in full agreement with the Bible.
 
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eleos1954

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Is it "a sticky wicket"? ;-)

Of course you and I both know that Jesus never taught "sola scriptura" nor did the Apostles of the Lord, nor the bishops and elders in the first Churches.

Yes He/they did.

Matthew 21:42; Matthew 12:3, 5; Matthew 19:4; Matthew 22:31; Mark 12:10, 26; Luke 6:3; Matthew 24:15; and Mark 13:14.

Not to mention Jesus using the written word of God to rebuke satan when He was tempted by him.

The Bible declares itself to be God-breathed, inerrant, and authoritative. We also know that God does not change His mind or contradict Himself. So, while the Bible itself may not explicitly argue for sola scriptura, it most definitely does not allow for traditions or teachings that contradict its message.

Sola scriptura
is not as much of an argument against tradition as it is an argument against unbiblical, extra-biblical and/or anti-biblical doctrines. The only way to know for sure what God expects of us is to stay true to what we know He has revealed—in the Bible. We can know, beyond the shadow of any doubt, that Scripture is true, authoritative, and reliable. The same cannot be said of tradition.

The Word of God is the only authority for the Christian faith. Traditions are valid only when they are based on Scripture and are in full agreement with Scripture.

Traditions that contradict the Bible are not of God and are not a valid aspect of the Christian faith. Sola scriptura is the only way to avoid subjectivity and keep personal opinion from taking priority over the teachings of the Bible.

The essence of sola scriptura is basing our spiritual life on the Bible alone and rejecting any tradition or teaching that is not in full agreement with the Bible.
 
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fhansen

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A reasonable general statement. Got any specific examples?
The church along with the ECFs always taught baptismal regeneration, that baptism is a command of Christ and necessary for salvation. That’s simply what the church received and practiced since the beginning. It was never even controversial.

And yet, going by Scripture alone many can argue plausibly enough that no such command existed, and that baptism is unnecessary. Protestants argue against Protestants on this matter. Such things result in a sort of best-guess theology. And while Bible study is important this has never been a matter of may the best exegete win, until a better one comes along and supersedes his positions. And Scripture wasn’t intended to serve as some kind of clear, concise, organized catechism to begin with.

Justification, the real presence, even the deity of Jesus are some other examples. But in any case the church’s lived historical experience must contribute its part or I’d submit that we can’t know many important aspects of the faith with any kind of real certainty.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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BBAS 64

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Yes He/they did.

Matthew 21:42; Matthew 12:3, 5; Matthew 19:4; Matthew 22:31; Mark 12:10, 26; Luke 6:3; Matthew 24:15; and Mark 13:14.

Not to mention Jesus using the written word of God to rebuke satan when He was tempted by him.

The Bible declares itself to be God-breathed, inerrant, and authoritative. We also know that God does not change His mind or contradict Himself. So, while the Bible itself may not explicitly argue for sola scriptura, it most definitely does not allow for traditions or teachings that contradict its message.

Sola scriptura
is not as much of an argument against tradition as it is an argument against unbiblical, extra-biblical and/or anti-biblical doctrines. The only way to know for sure what God expects of us is to stay true to what we know He has revealed—in the Bible. We can know, beyond the shadow of any doubt, that Scripture is true, authoritative, and reliable. The same cannot be said of tradition.

The Word of God is the only authority for the Christian faith. Traditions are valid only when they are based on Scripture and are in full agreement with Scripture.

Traditions that contradict the Bible are not of God and are not a valid aspect of the Christian faith. Sola scriptura is the only way to avoid subjectivity and keep personal opinion from taking priority over the teachings of the Bible.

The essence of sola scriptura is basing our spiritual life on the Bible alone and rejecting any tradition or teaching that is not in full agreement with the Bible.

Good Day, eleos

One can understand why such a standard would cause issue for people with in the Roman catholic denomination:

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger : while commenting on the documents of Vatican II (article nine of Dei verbum), stated that “no one is seriously able to maintain that there is a proof in Scripture for every catholic doctrine.” See Joseph Ratzinger’s “The Transmission of Divine Revelation” in Herbert Vorgrimler, ed., Commentary on the Documents of Vatican II (New York: Herder and Herder, 1969), Vol. 3, p. 195.


In Him,

Bill
 
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eleos1954

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Not a single one of those verses teaches sola scriptura they just show that citations and quotes from holy scripture are useful when discussing a matter with a religious audience.
"

"are useful" ???? just some guidelines for a "religious audience" .... so different teachings for different audiences? Say what?

2 Timothy 3:16-17
New International Version


16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 
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eleos1954

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Not a single one of those verses teaches sola scriptura they just show that citations and quotes from holy scripture are useful when discussing a matter with a religious audience.
"

"are useful" ???? just some guidelines for a "religious audience" .... so different teachings for different audiences? Say what?

2 Timothy 3:16-17
New International Version


16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 
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BBAS 64

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Not a single one of those verses teaches sola scriptura they just show that citations and quotes from holy scripture are useful when discussing a matter with a religious audience.


Good Day, Xeno

Now that is a very interesting interpretation and application of those texts... Do you have an official document from your church that assures you that you have not errored in your interpretation? Or at least a official document stating in their own minds it is potentially valid?

Have you ever considered you may be in error?

In Him,

Bill
 
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eleos1954

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Good Day, eleos

One can understand why such a standard would cause issue for people with in the Roman catholic denomination:

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger : while commenting on the documents of Vatican II (article nine of Dei verbum), stated that “no one is seriously able to maintain that there is a proof in Scripture for every catholic doctrine.” See Joseph Ratzinger’s “The Transmission of Divine Revelation” in Herbert Vorgrimler, ed., Commentary on the Documents of Vatican II (New York: Herder and Herder, 1969), Vol. 3, p. 195.


In Him,

Bill

The document states, “constitute the one sacred deposit of the word of God entrusted to the Church,” and they both are to be “accepted and honored with equal devotion and reverence” (p. 15).

Such statements carry with it two important implications. First, the “word of God” is not the Scripture but the Scripture and Tradition as a unity. This seems to be the meaning of the phrase “word of God” throughout the document.

Second, it is implied that Tradition and Scripture are not to be differentiated on the basis of authority. They have equal authority because, supposedly, Tradition is founded on the Scripture.

stated that “no one is seriously able to maintain that there is a proof in Scripture for every catholic doctrine. True.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Thanks for sharing! If you can name one denomination that does not veer from scripture, I would love to know who they are!
Blessings
If you mean not veering from what some fundamentalist says Scripture says, there is not one.

But the Traditional groups, such as the Catholics and Orthodox, may not restrict themselves to only what is in Scripture alone so as to follow what was orally handed on to them by the Apostles and by the Christ.
 
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