Saturday or Sunday Church?

Soyeong said:

I have previously there was a period of time between the resurrection of Jesus and the inclusion of Gentiles in Acts 10 that is estimated to be around 7-15 years during which all Christians were Torah observant Jews, so Christianity was historically at its origin the form of Judaism that recognized Jesus as its prophesied Messiah, and this is the religion that I seek by faith to follow as part of a community of like-minded believers, which orthodox Christianity has veered away from. This religion is called Messianic Judaism in recognition of the fact that it is a form of Judaism that follows the Messiah. It wouldn't make sense to think that the prophesies in regard to the Messianic Age are following a different religion, but rather the only religion described as being followed in the Messianic Age is a form of Judaism that follows the Messiah.

While we are under the New Covenant and not the Mosaic Covenant, we are nevertheless still under the same God with the same nature and therefore the same Torah for how to act in accordance with His nature (Jeremiah 31:33).

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So this new religion called Messianic Judaism which was formed in the 1960s, is predicated on what might have transpired 7-15 year period between the resurrection and Acts 10. What about the Gentiles Jesus included before that, like the Samaritan woman who then passed it on to other Samaritans and the Roman Centurion and all the other Gentiles in the region who followed Jesus?

Soyeong said:

Please tell me which parts that you didn't find easy to comprehend so that I can clarify them. It is not clear to me why you are expecting a summary of the main points to be clearer than a full post that fleshes those points out.

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The whole premise in general.

SabbathBlessings said:

The scripture says the sabbath(s) in regards to ordinances Col 2:14-17, Hebrews 10 that is referring to food and drink offerings are fufilled with Christ blood on the cross. I think we should keep the Passover, but not slay lambs becuase the Lamb of Christ is sufficient at the cross and killing animals takes away from what Christ did for us.

1 Cor 5:7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.

We keep the Passover by celebration of communion or the Lord’s Supper. Jesus was the fulfillment, so it seems like it would be a lack of faith to kill lambs .

The feasts sabbaths (holy days) are not the same as the holy day, the seventh day-Sabbath which is a commandment of God and started right in Creation before sin Genesis 2:1-3, The feasts sabbath all started after sin and is not one of the Ten Commandments, so these sabbath(s) are not the same.

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According to our Messianic brother not keeping the Passover is a sin.

Soyeong said:

In Deuteronomy 10:12-16, God wanted His people to obey His commandments and circumcise their hearts. In Deuteronomy 30:1-8, it prophesies about a time when the Israelites would return from exile, God would circumcise their hearts, and they would turn to obedience to the Torah. In Ezekiel 36:26-27 and Jeremiah 31:33, the content is in regard to the New Covenant and the Israelites returning from exile, where God would take away their hearts of stone, given them hearts of flesh, and send his Spirit to lead us to obey the Torah, and where he would put the Torah in our minds and write it on our hearts, so they are describing God circumcising our hearts by means of the Spirit. In Romans 2:25-29, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Torah, which is the same way to tell for a Jew, and circumcision of the heart is a matter of the Spirit, which is in contrast with Acts 7:51-53, where those who have uncircumcised hearts resist the Spirit and do not obey the Torah. So the New Covenant is all about returning to obedience to the Torah

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I disagree the Torah is not the same as the law of the Spirit.

“Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:1-11‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬


“It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love. You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you. A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough. I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is. But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished. I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves. For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another. But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:1-18‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

If you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law. So the law of the Spirit is different than the Torah.

Soyeong said:

If you disagree with my position in lieu of explaining why you disagree, then you are also disagreeing with the verses that I used to support my position, but if you think that I've misunderstood those verses, then by all means please explain why.

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The way of faith was always in God's heart for the Jews.

Obedience to the Law was never the prime objective rather as Jesus said...

John 13
33 Little children, I am with you a little while longer. You will seek Me; and as I said to the Jews, now I also say to you, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come.’ 34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

This is confirmed in Acts 15.

“The apostles and the brethren who are elders, to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia who are from the Gentiles, greetings.

24 “Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls, 25 it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 “Therefore we have sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 “For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell.”

Paul traces out Spiritual inheritance back to Abraham not Moses.

The Law was never a vehicle for Salvation - faith in God has always been the way of being in eternal relationship with God.

MMXX said:

So a new religion called Messianic Judaism which was formed in the 1960s, is predicated on what might have transpired 7-15 year period between the resurrection and Acts 10. What about the Gentiles Jesus included before that, like the Samaritan woman who then passed it on to other Samaritans and the Roman Centurion and all the other Gentiles in the region who followed Jesus?

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Ruth 1:16 But Ruth said, “Do not urge me to leave you or to return from following you. For where you go I will go, and where you lodge I will lodge. Your people shall be my people, and your God my God.

There have always been righteous Gentiles who have affiliated themselves with the God of Israel who have sought by faith to learn how to walk in His way, but it is contradictory when Gentiles to want to become followers of the God of Israel while not wanting to walk in His way or who want to follow Christ but not follow his example. Do you think that Gentiles should walk in God's way?

Generally Gentiles who become followers of the God of Israel became converts, though Gentiles who had not yet converted were still learning to fear and doing what is right, which is living in obedience to what He has commanded in accordance with Christ's example (Acts 10:35, Deuteronomy 10:12-13). So granting that there were some Gentiles who had not yet converted during the first 7-15 after the resurrection, do you that the vast majority of Christians were Torah observant Jews? Furthermore, do you agree that seeking to follow the same religion that they practiced is not following a new religion? Do you agree that orthodox Christianity has veered away from how Christianity was at its origin? Do you agree that Christian should seek to practice Christianity in the way that it was practiced at its origin? Messianic Judaism has increased exponentially in popularity since the 1960's, but it was reviving something ancient, not starting someone brand new, and there have always been practicing Jews who believed that Jesus is the Messiah.

Soyeong said:

God's nature is eternal, so the way to act in accordance with His nature is therefore also eternal, and if that were to change under the New Covenant, then God's nature would not be eternal, and the only way that we should no longer follow these laws is if what they teach us about God's eternal nature if no longer true of God. For example, in 1 Peter 1:16, we are told to have a holy conduct for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was given instructions for how to have a holy conduct, which includes keeping God's Sabbaths holy (Leviticus 19:2-3) and refraining from eating unclean animals (Leviticus 11:44-45). The only way that we should no longer have a holy conduct as God is holy is if God is no longer eternally holy, and when Gentiles refuse to have a holy conduct as God holy, they are bearing false witness against God's holiness. In 1 Peter 2:9-10, Gentiles are included as part of God's chosen people, a holy nation, a royal priesthood, and a treasure of God's own possession, which are terms used to describe Israel (Deuteronomy 7:6), so Gentiles also have the delight of getting to obey the instructions that God gave to Israel for how to fulfill those roles. It would be contradictory for a Gentile to want to become part of a holy nation while wanting nothing to do with following God's instructions for how to live as part of a holy nation.

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Holy conduct would fall into the category of moral laws which are given in the New Testament.

Carl Emerson said:

The way of faith was always in God's heart for the Jews.

Obedience to the Law was never the prime objective rather as Jesus said...

John 13
33 Little children, I am with you a little while longer. You will seek Me; and as I said to the Jews, now I also say to you, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come.’ 34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

This is confirmed in Acts 15.

“The apostles and the brethren who are elders, to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia who are from the Gentiles, greetings.

24 “Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls, 25 it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 “Therefore we have sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 “For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell.”

Paul traces out Spiritual inheritance back to Abraham not Moses.

The Law was never a vehicle for Salvation - faith in God has always been the way of being in eternal relationship with God.

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Amen, the law was intended to show our need for a Savior by shutting us all up in disobedience. It was also intended to be a stumbling block for the Jews.

MMXX said:

So this new religion called Messianic Judaism which was formed in the 1960s, is predicated on what might have transpired 7-15 year period between the resurrection and Acts 10. What about the Gentiles Jesus included before that, like the Samaritan woman who then passed it on to other Samaritans and the Roman Centurion and all the other Gentiles in the region who followed Jesus?

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Samaritans are actually descendants of Abraham. They’re not Gentiles.

Soyeong said:

For example, in Ezekiel 36:26-27, Spirit has the role of leading us to obey what many translations translate as decrees, statutes, judgements, commandments, ordinances, etc., but the Hebrew words used as mishpatim and chukim.

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Thanks! And the idea that the mishpatim are straightforward as to why we keep them, and the chukim are not,
Is this idea based on a passage in scripture? Or construed from several passages? Something else?

Soyeong said:

the Mosaic Law leads us to Christ so that we can then reject what he taught and go back to living in sin.

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This is the nub of the issue.

Folks who find God's love in Jesus do not need the written Law to tell them how to behave.

Suggesting that those who find Jesus and have God's Spirit in their hearts must be sinners because they don't keep the letter of the Law is utter nonsense and quite insulting.

But then Satan is an arch legalist so this angle on matters is to be expected.

I have has rocks thrown at me in Jerusalem for carrying a bag on the Sabbath. This typifies the Legalistic Spirit we are dealing with.

Idolise the Law if you want but to condemn brothers and sisters who have found the way of faith in Jesus and walk in His love and integrity is totally out of order.

BNR32FAN said:

Holy conduct would fall into the category of moral laws which are given in the New Testament.

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So when 1 Peter 1:16 quotes Leviticus 19:2-3 and Leviticus 11:44-45 in regard to how to have a holy conduct, you are now agreeing that keeping God's Sabbaths holy and refraining from eating unclean animals are moral laws? I agree that having a holy conduct are moral laws, but what standard are you using in order to make that determination?

SabbathBlessings said:

The scripture says the sabbath(s) in regards to ordinances Col 2:14-17, Hebrews 10 that is referring to food and drink offerings are fufilled with Christ blood on the cross. I think we should keep the Passover, but not slay lambs becuase the Lamb of Christ is sufficient at the cross and killing animals takes away from what Christ did for us.

1 Cor 5:7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.

We keep the Passover by celebration of communion or the Lord’s Supper. Jesus was the fulfillment, so it seems like it would be a lack of faith to kill lambs .

The feasts sabbaths (holy days) are not the same as the holy day, the seventh day-Sabbath which is a commandment of God and started right in Creation before sin Genesis 2:1-3, The feasts sabbath all started after sin and is not one of the Ten Commandments, so these sabbath(s) are not the same.

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The killing of the lamb in the Passover ceremony was not a sin offering. Jews are forbidden to eat of the sin offering sacrifices whereas they are commanded to eat all of the Passover sacrifice.

SabbathBlessings said:

The Spirit is not in conflict with God's laws. The spirit that leads you away from God's law is not the spirit we should be following.

The apostles kept the Sabbath commandment and the examples shown in scriptures is all ways of keeping the Sabbath holy.

You could pray and then work on the Sabbath which according to God's interpretation is not keeping the Sabbath holy. Exodus 20:8-11 so in that regard you're correct, but I wasn't talking about you I was quoting the scriptures of the examples the apostles left on Sabbath-keeping.

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The Spirit is not in conflict with the laws that we are to keep today. But that simply takes us back to the starting point.

The passages that you cite in post #228 about talk about the apostles doing things like going to the synagogue. That's not necessarily keeping the Sabbath imo.

We would expect to find the apostles, especially Paul, in a synagogue on the Sabbath. Paul always tried to present Jesus within the context of Judaism, since Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. And he went to the Jews first, then to the Greeks. It's my understanding that he would keep going to a synagogue until they kicked him out.

I'm not aware of a passage that actually states something like
The apostles kept the Sabbath.

SabbathBlessings said:

The scripture says the sabbath(s) in regards to ordinances Col 2:14-17, Hebrews 10 that is referring to food and drink offerings are fufilled with Christ blood on the cross. I think we should keep the Passover, but not slay lambs becuase the Lamb of Christ is sufficient at the cross and killing animals takes away from what Christ did for us.

1 Cor 5:7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.

We keep the Passover by celebration of communion or the Lord’s Supper. Jesus was the fulfillment, so it seems like it would be a lack of faith to kill lambs .

The feasts sabbaths (holy days) are not the same as the holy day, the seventh day-Sabbath which is a commandment of God and started right in Creation before sin Genesis 2:1-3, The feasts sabbath all started after sin and is not one of the Ten Commandments, so these sabbath(s) are not the same.

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God commanded that the Passover must be observed for all generations.

For the record, I love the passover memorial as it is rich in the Gospel.

But to say it is sinful not to regularly participate in this annual occasion is to bring billions of believers into judgement.

BNR32FAN said:

Yes and every time the apostles are mentioned in a synagogue what were they doing? I believe that is a very relevant question to consider. They were preaching the gospel. Christianity is the continuation of Judaism. The Jewish prophecies referred to Christ and the New Covenant which is what they were preaching. It just makes sense that since these people attending the synagogues were familiar with the Old Testament prophecies and awaiting the Messiah that the apostles would go to them and preach to them that the Messiah had come and the New Covenant had begun.

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I think this is relevant:
Acts 17 So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the devout persons, and in the marketplace every day with those who met him.

So Paul goes to the synagogue when it's open, I'm assuming. That would be every Sabbath as well as other holy days. Or maybe in a large city like Athens, it was always open.

Then he goes to the marketplace every day and reasons. If he's going every day, then he's going to the marketplace on the Sabbath as well.

And as far as this passage goes, he's doing the same thing in the marketplace that he did in the synagogue.

Soyeong said:

So when 1 Peter 1:16 quotes Leviticus 19:2-3 and Leviticus 11:44-45 in regard to how to have a holy conduct, you are now agreeing that keeping God's Sabbaths holy and refraining from eating unclean animals are moral laws? I agree that having a holy conduct are moral laws, but what standard are you using in order to make that determination?

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No because Peter didn’t mention either of those laws.

So I'm just working my way up through the thread, I'm up to #262 now.

This came to mind: another possible reason why Paul went to the synagogue on the Sabbath is habit. He also hurries to try to get to Jerusalem in time for the Passover.

So not everything that Paul did is something we want to imitate.

BNR32FAN said:

God commanded that the Passover must be observed for all generations.

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We observe it through communion. Christ fulfilled all blood sacrifices, He is the Passover for all generations..