Trivalee

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 1, 2021
706
162
55
London
✟185,450.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Moses and Elijah?

The Book of Revelation makes many parallels with the Old Testament, but their use is allegorical. Sodom and Egypt, for example, represents Jerusalem (v. 11:8). The Two Witnesses will resemble Moses and Elijah, but nowhere does it say that it will be them. If you cross-reference the lampstands, there were two churches mentioned in the opening of the book that were faithful during trying times.
When scriptures say for example, that Elijah or even Moses will come, we understand that someone will come who will embody the spirit of the prophet. It doesn't necessarily mean that that particular OT prophet will come in person.

The transfiguration has been pointed out as proof of Moses and Elijah working together to fulfill a prophecy in the NT.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: pdudgeon
Upvote 0

eleos1954

God is Love
Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
9,698
5,614
Utah
✟713,403.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I was moved to post this because it appears many people do not know what The Bible teaches about The Two Witnesses. I read many threads and comments from people through the years and this appears to be the case for what's taught in The Bible.

So this is my attempt to clarify some scriptures, with The Truth of what The Bible actually says about this in short order.

It is important to carefully question ourselves before we conclude a thing. A believer should always ask themselves, is what this man said, written in Gods word, and understood?
Or, is what the man says, something he made up. Is he confused?

We should question not only ourselves, but the actual churches that produce doctrine. Because most churches today do not teach The Bible properly.
They teach their own words. This is revealed by Christ Himself, as it was the first paramount warning given in Matthew 24, to beware no man, deceive you. And another place written in Revelation, only two, of the seven churches He addressed had no fault. The rest failed. For many shall say I am of Christ, a Christian, and deceive many. Mark 13, Matthew 24, Luke 21.

Now, concerning what The Bible actually teaches about The Two Witnesses, they are most definitely two named individuals. Moses and Elijah. They are The Two Witnesses.

This is very simple. God is very blunt about it. There is no guesswork allowed, nor room for choice. God said it. That is how it will be.

They are the only two that appeared with Christ, in the NT.
They are the only two mentioned in prophecy concerning that God will send during The Deception of Satan to rally His Elect.

Luke :
28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.

29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.

30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:

31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.

33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.

34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.

35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.

( So verse 35 God did not say, hear man. He said Hear Christ! )


Moses and Elijah, prophecy concerning them is written in The OT, and The NT.

Malachi
Chapter 4

For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.


Revelation 11 :


3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies:
and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

These Miracles, of no rain, and water to blood, and fire, where performed by God, through only two people in The Bible. Moses and Elijah.

James 5:17
“Elias (Elijah) was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.”


1 Kings 18:36
“And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word.”

37 Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the LORD God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again.

38 Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.

39 And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The LORD, he is the God; the LORD, he is the God.

1 Kings Chapter 17

1 And Elijah the Tishbite, who was of the inhabitants of Gilead, said unto Ahab, As the LORD God of Israel liveth, before whom I stand, there shall not be dew nor rain these years, but according to my word.
2 And the word of the LORD came unto him, saying,
3 Get thee hence, and turn thee eastward, and hide thyself by the brook Cherith, that is before Jordan.
4 And it shall be, that thou shalt drink of the brook; and I have commanded the ravens to feed thee there.


Now who is teaching John this prophecy in Revelation?

Revelation 1:


1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.


Matthew 28:18




“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.”



The Lord of all heaven and earth, Moses, and Elijah, stood before.
Revelation 11:
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


Zechariah 4:11
“Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?”

12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?

13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.

14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.


And we all know, who God turned the sea red by, Moses.

Exodus 7:20
And Moses and Aaron did so, as the LORD commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood.”


A interesting note in this is God never allowed, any man to burry Moses. To this day, Satan inquires about the burial location of Moses. As Jude kjv, reports.
And Elijah, was seen taken by God into a whirling cloud.

These two will God send before the great and terrible day The Lord come. And He shall come at The Last Trump. Revelation 11.
Moses and Elijah will appear maybe two months before, Satan arrives claiming to be Christ...


God will, not maybe, but emphatically, will be sending Satan to see who has been listening to His word. And who has been listening to mankind and their words. Believer or not so called. And again at the end of The Lords Day ( Revelation 20 ) Satan will be loosed for a short space to once again put the people to the test, to sift the fakes from the reals.


So be informed ahead of time that traditions of men, will not save you. And will not weather the storm God will send to rend it. Ezekiel 13 kjv.


When this question was posed to Christ, concerning John The Baptist, did He say John was Elijah? The answer was No. John said no. Christ gave a Condition. "If" They receive Johns Message, and Receive Christ, then, and only then This is Elijah. They beheaded John The Baptist, and Crucified Christ. So it would not be. Instead, the curse is coming and Elijah and Moses will come.

The two witnesses are the OT and the NT - the Bible

John 5:39 Jesus states

You pore over the Scriptures because you think you have eternal life in them, yet they testify about Me.

The prophetic period of “times and times and the dividing of time” (Dan. 7:25, KJV), has been historically understood as comprising a period of 1,260 years during the Middle Ages. Prior to the French Revolution.

Christian thinkers gave a range of views about when the period started and ended. But with the rise of Napoleon, and the exile into captivity of the pope by French general Berthier, there was a rare moment of near prophetic unanimity among Protestant expositors, who declared that this period ended in A.D. 1798. It is a matter, then, of running the period backward to find the starting point, which would be A.D. 538.

In Revelation 11:3-12, we find the great prophecy of God's two witnesses. "These are the two olive trees and the two lamp stands standing before the God of the earth" (Revelation 11:4). We know that a lamp is a symbol for the Word of God, "Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path" (Psalm 119:105).

When Zechariah sees two olive trees in vision, he asks the angel what they represent. "Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the Lord" (Zechariah 4:6). It also takes the olive oil of the Spirit to illuminate the lamp of God's Word.

Revelation warns what will happen to those who would harm God's two witnesses, the Holy Bible. "If anyone wants to hurt them fire proceeds out of their mouths and devours their enemies." This happened in the experiences of both Elijah and Moses.

Fire came down from heaven on the Egyptians as they pursued God's children and it consumed the sons of Aaron. It also consumed the soldiers when they challenged Elijah. In addition, "These have the power to shut up heaven so no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over water to turn them to blood." Did Elijah pray and the rain stop? Did Moses pray and the water turn to blood? So again we see why God likens (symbolically) the two witnesses, His Word, to the ministry of Moses and Elijah.
 
Upvote 0

Blade

Veteran
Supporter
Dec 29, 2002
8,165
3,989
USA
✟629,996.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I disagree, the two Witnesses will be just 2 godly human men. Who will be killed as mortals.

If Moses and Elijah appear, they must be spiritual beings, unable to be killed.

Hey Keras. Why are they spiritual beings? Well if they never died and we know anyone can be caught up not be changed to heaven :) Since time is not like it is here.. they could have been there just a few days. "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment". Did not Enoch not die where as Moshe did. So seems there are two that have not died and God (word) can not lie.
 
  • Useful
Reactions: JohnRemnant
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,559
2,480
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟290,690.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Hey Keras. Why are they spiritual beings? Well if they never died and we know anyone can be caught up not be changed to heaven :) Since time is not like it is here.. they could have been there just a few days. "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment". Did not Enoch not die where as Moshe did. So seems there are two that have not died and God (word) can not lie.
This is really too confused to reply to.
Moses DID die, but his Spirit was seen with Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration. Matthew 17:3
My point is that as a spiritual beings; Moses and Elijah would be unaffected by bullets.
The two Witnesses do have the powers to cremate anyone who tries to kill them, Revelation 11:5, but they do get killed at the end of the 1260 days.
They are not and could not be Moses and Elijah.
 
Upvote 0

JohnRemnant

Active Member
Jul 3, 2022
73
34
75
NYC
✟4,615.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Like most people who lack diligence and mention "context" without really understanding it, your argument is all over the place and an oxymoron. While you deny that John the Baptist was not Elijah, you unwittingly contradicted yourself by quoting scripture that proves he was Elijah. Look at it this way; when scriptures say Elijah or Moses will come back, nobody expects they will return in the same body and features they lived in thousands of years ago when they walked the earth!

Consequently, the proper rendition is that whoever comes in their name will embody their spirit, i.e. he will fulfill what is prophesied in the character of the prophet. IOW, Elijah could have been fat and short in his day, and John the Baptist might have been slim and tall. In this context, John the Baptist was his own individual but embodied the spirit of Elijah to fulfill what was prophesied in Isaiah 40:3; Malachi 4:6, to turn Israel to God. You even spoke of the "spirit of Elijah", but apparently don't seem to understand what that implies.

Whether Israel heeded the call or not, isn't the point: the fact remains that John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah according to prophecy. You cited Matt 11: 14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. 15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. In this passage, Jesus expressly confirmed that John the Baptist was Elijah. V-15 "who has an ear, let him hear," tells the reader that it requires discernment to understand that John the Baptist was indeed Elijah. IOW, carnal wisdom is not enough to figure this out - just as only a handful recognized Jesus as the expected Messiah.

But if there's any ambiguity in the above text, what Jesus said below dispels any doubt.

Matt 17:10 And the disciples asked him, “Then why do the scribes say that first Elijah must come?” 11 He answered, “Elijah does come, and he will restore all things.
12 But I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of Man will certainly suffer at their hands.”


Note what Jesus said, "Elias has already come", he spoke in the past tense in relation to the period he was speaking. It's unfortunate that you just picked and chose what you wanted from my earlier post and ignored the heart of my argument. If you bother to go back and read it in full, you will find that I explicitly said that John the Baptist fulfilled:

Mal 4:5 “Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. 6 And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction.”

The passage above is specific that an individual will come, ergo, it's impossible to force the 2Ws into the text as the sentence is in single tense. For Israel's rejection of John's call for repentance and their Messiah's message, notice that verse 6 was fulfilled in the destruction of the temple and desolation of Jerusalem in 70 AD?

I also pointed out in my first post that Elijah will also return again at the end of the age with Moses (Zech 4:14 & Rev 11), once again to give Israel the last chance to choose life in the Messiah or risk eternal damnation.

I think you might have a typo or misread me. I said John The Baptist was not, Elijah. And give the scriptures to document.

And Christ and John both say he was not. So not sure how those verses say otherwise, when in plain English they even say he was not.

Also expectations is not scriptural evidence. I expect them to return in the same body they left in. 1 Corinthians 15, everyone has two bodies. How these manifest for this event, is in Gods power to do. But speculation beyond what scripture allows, given they are named by name, will just lead into traditions of man.

What you gave here is a opinion on scriptures. But not conveyed as they unfold in the passages line by line in order. You say John was Elijah by ignoring the context and condition that Christ gave. Without the condition met he was not Elijah. He only carried the same message.

The passage says God will send Elijah. I just accept that to be The Truth without question.
 
Last edited:
  • Winner
Reactions: pdudgeon
Upvote 0

Trivalee

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 1, 2021
706
162
55
London
✟185,450.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
I think you might have a typo or misread me. I said John The Baptist was not, Elijah. And give the scriptures to document.

And Christ and John both say he was not. So not sure how those verses say otherwise, when in plain English they even say he was not.

Also expectations is not scriptural evidence. I expect them to return in the same body they left in. 1 Corinthians 15, everyone has two bodies. How these manifest for this event, is in Gods power to do. But speculation beyond what scripture allows, given they are named by name, will just lead into traditions of man.

What you gave here is a opinion on scriptures. But not conveyed as they unfold in the passages line by line in order. You say John was Elijah by ignoring the context and condition that Christ gave. Without the condition met he was not Elijah. He only carried the same message.

The passage says God will send Elijah. I just accept that to be The Truth without question.

Matt 17:10 And the disciples asked him, “Then why do the scribes say that first Elijah must come?” 11 He answered, “Elijah does come, and he will restore all things.
12 But I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of Man will certainly suffer at their hands.”

Please explain your understanding of the above.
 
Upvote 0

ewq1938

I love you three.
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Supporter
Nov 5, 2011
44,413
6,797
✟915,391.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Two people cannot be the "two witnesses" because the two witnesses are 4 things, two olive trees (those are two people) AND two candlesticks which are two churches. Two people simply cannot be the two olive trees AND two churches for obvious reasons.
 
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,282
568
56
Mount Morris
✟123,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Two people cannot be the "two witnesses" because the two witnesses are 4 things, two olive trees (those are two people) AND two candlesticks which are two churches. Two people simply cannot be the two olive trees AND two churches for obvious reasons.
Why not? 2 OT witnesses and 2 NT witnesses.

Moses was a witness for only 120 years out of the 4,000 years prior to Christ. Elijah was on earth less than that, unless you accept Enoch could be Elijah.

Why not 2 NT witnesses with even a less time stamp on earth for the last 1992 years. Certainly Moses and Elijah were not "hanging out" on earth for 4,000 years.
 
Upvote 0

ewq1938

I love you three.
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Supporter
Nov 5, 2011
44,413
6,797
✟915,391.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Why not? 2 OT witnesses and 2 NT witnesses.


It's best to stick with the text. The two witnesses are only mentioned in Revelation and the two witnesses are two olive trees and two candlesticks. They are active in the end times during the 42 months which is essentially the same as their 1260 days. Candle sticks represent churches, an unknown amount of people. Olive trees are mentioned in the OT as two anointed people which IMO matches the two prophets that die and resurrect in Revelation 11. These would not be the two candlestick churches.
 
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,282
568
56
Mount Morris
✟123,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
It's best to stick with the text. The two witnesses are only mentioned in Revelation and the two witnesses are two olive trees and two candlesticks. They are active in the end times during the 42 months which is essentially the same as their 1260 days. Candle sticks represent churches, an unknown amount of people. Olive trees are mentioned in the OT as two anointed people which IMO matches the two prophets that die and resurrect in Revelation 11. These would not be the two candlestick churches.
Exactly. 2 of the witnesses were already from the OT. There are 4 witnesses. The 2 NT witnesses will be revealed at the Second Coming.

Why did you not stick to the text and point out the two olive trees as witnesses in the OT?

If the olive trees were 2 individuals in the OT, why do you depart from the text and deny 2 witnesses from the NT, the 2 candlesticks?

John is being consistent with the OT. Those 42 months will be the darkest time in history. Even darker than when Moses and Elijah were the 2 witnesses in the OT. They were the one's appearing with Christ on the mount of Transfiguration. Two tribes of Israel did not appear on the mount of Transfiguration. Two churches are not going to be the two witnesses.

The symbolism is that two people represented the Law and the Prophets from the OT. Two people represent the church from the NT.

Since John is the author of Revelation, he already was a witness to all the events, he would be one of the 2 witnesses.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

JohnRemnant

Active Member
Jul 3, 2022
73
34
75
NYC
✟4,615.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Matt 17:10 And the disciples asked him, “Then why do the scribes say that first Elijah must come?” 11 He answered, “Elijah does come, and he will restore all things.
12 But I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of Man will certainly suffer at their hands.”

Please explain your understanding of the above.


John was in the spirit of, the message Elijah preaches. That Elijah Ministry to bring Israel to The Father,
or the wicked to their father Satan. That is a brief explanation to what is taught in Malachi 4. Spirit means the same work, the same teaching that God wants sent. Of The Holy Spirit. But a message is not the man which is what your question is about. Christ is saying Elijah has come in that sense, the message was preached. Yet people rejected it. With Satan's influence.

Their accepting The Lord Christ, was a condition they had to meet for John to have fulfilled that requirement outlined in Malachi And The Kingdom Come at that time. That condition was not met.

No marvel because, its already written. We have hindsight to see the people rejected The Lord Messiah and John The Baptist.
John died that day when he was beheaded of the people. And it is written its given to men to die once, etc.
It may be noteworthy that Elijah is recorded as not dying, but being taken as Enoch was. And so Malachi 4 was not fulfilled by John The Baptist, as Christ explains in the verses I'll post now.

2 Kings 2:11-12 kjv
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.


John's preaching mirrored what Elijah would be saying, of what will be before The actual return, of Christ.
Whenever Satan is put to this earth, claiming to be Christ and whole world harlot after him.
2 Thessalians 2 kjv.

Luke 1:17
17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Matthew 3:5-7
5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

The wrath to come, concerns the second advent. Christs actual, return. Not the first which was to bring Salvation.
Here Christ reads directly from Isaiah about the first, and then second advent:
Luke 4:21
And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

The Lord is reading from The Prophet Isaiah. The first advent which He accomplished at The Cross.
However if you continue reading Isaiah were The Lord Christ closed the book on. It is the second advent that reads next.


Isaiah 61:1-2
1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

( This is that, wrath John The Baptist warned The Brood of Vipers, Satan's children stand condemned in that day. Unless they accept Christ and repent of their evil ways.)


Matthew 17:11 "And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things."

( Concerning prophecy, in Malachi, the Kingdom when all things are restored, Elijah arrives just before it )

Matthew 17:12 "But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not,
but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them."


This underlined portion is what the people did, braking the condition of accepting The Lord.
The Lord is declaring prophecy before the fact. He knows the course of events are leading to this outcome already. The people will brake the condition of accepting Him.

So If you read prophecy in Malachi, Elijah comes at the end.
The actual return of Christ at The Lords Day, at The Last Trump as written. When The Kingdom is actual established. John taught that message, that message has come, The Messiah Himself was standing before them, The King of that Kingdom preached. However, the people beheaded John and murdered Christ.

So all things considered, The end, did not happen.
Instead to repeat, they broke the condition.
God knew this aforetime because of prophecy He declared.
Its that simple, was the crucifixion the return? No.


Matthew 11:14

14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

Christ suffered at their hands, because they rejected Salvation that day To their own shame. Yet God used their actions for a positive to offer the world Salvation for whomsoever will Believe in Him. Satan's fate was sealed, and Christ shall return at the second advent to restore all things. Elijah shall come then, as Malachi declares.


John knew this already, because he often ask The Lord about this very thing.

Matthew 11:3-5
And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?

( This translation is a bit iffy. Given all these scriptures concerning the first, and second advent in The Bible and some I posted here, John is asking The Lord, Is this the time you shall restore the Kingdom of God to earth, Or do we look for another? ( that is to say another advent ).
Christ answers and reveals clarity to the question when He teaches of the first advent. As He did when He opened Isaiah noted mid way through this reply. )

4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.

Christ is pointing back to Isaiah.
John was brought up to knowledge on these things,
what was John's teaching concerning then?

John 1:21
And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet?
And he answered, No.

These scriptures are easy to accept because they are Gods words...
John knew he and The Lord would be rejected and so taught he was not Elijah. However the same spirit of message remained true. As obvious as The Lord Himself walked among them.

So Elijah Himself, shall come as Malachi and Revelation teach us. Its then at Satan's time, will Elijah and Moses die in the arena or gathering place. But it won't be John The Baptist.

Hope that helps someone. That will be the last reply from me on this question.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Trivalee

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 1, 2021
706
162
55
London
✟185,450.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
It's best to stick with the text. The two witnesses are only mentioned in Revelation and the two witnesses are two olive trees and two candlesticks. They are active in the end times during the 42 months which is essentially the same as their 1260 days. Candle sticks represent churches, an unknown amount of people. Olive trees are mentioned in the OT as two anointed people which IMO matches the two prophets that die and resurrect in Revelation 11. These would not be the two candlestick churches.
I agree...
 
Upvote 0

Trivalee

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 1, 2021
706
162
55
London
✟185,450.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Two people cannot be the "two witnesses" because the two witnesses are 4 things, two olive trees (those are two people) AND two candlesticks which are two churches. Two people simply cannot be the two olive trees AND two churches for obvious reasons.
Sorry, I beg to differ.

Zech 4:11 Then I said to him, “What are these two olive trees on the right and the left of the lampstand?” 12 And a second time I answered and said to him, “What are these two branches of the olive trees, which are beside the two golden pipes from which the golden oil is poured out?” 13 He said to me, “Do you not know what these are?” I said, “No, my lord.” 14 Then he said, “These are the two anointed ones who stand by the Lord of the whole earth.”

The focus above is on the two olive trees. We are merely informed that they stand on the left and right sides of the lampstand. So, the two olive trees are consistent with the end time 2Ws. The lampstand here is not part of the end-time prophecy.
 
Upvote 0

ewq1938

I love you three.
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Supporter
Nov 5, 2011
44,413
6,797
✟915,391.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Sorry, I beg to differ.

Zech 4:11 Then I said to him, “What are these two olive trees on the right and the left of the lampstand?” 12 And a second time I answered and said to him, “What are these two branches of the olive trees, which are beside the two golden pipes from which the golden oil is poured out?” 13 He said to me, “Do you not know what these are?” I said, “No, my lord.” 14 Then he said, “These are the two anointed ones who stand by the Lord of the whole earth.”

The focus above is on the two olive trees. We are merely informed that they stand on the left and right sides of the lampstand. So, the two olive trees are consistent with the end time 2Ws. The lampstand here is not part of the end-time prophecy.

Maybe not there but lampstands/candlesticks are a part of the two witnesses.

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


The two witnesses are 4 things. Two olives trees are two individuals, two candlesticks are two churches. Furthermore the olive tree people spiritually sup[ply the olive oil to the churches so the light of Christ may shine. Same oil that is in the parable of the 10 virgins.
 
Upvote 0

Marilyn C

Pre-tribulation.
Supporter
Dec 26, 2013
4,811
596
Victoria
✟592,788.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I was moved to post this because it appears many people do not know what The Bible teaches about The Two Witnesses. I read many threads and comments from people through the years and this appears to be the case for what's taught in The Bible.


Now, concerning what The Bible actually teaches about The Two Witnesses, they are most definitely two named individuals. Moses and Elijah. They are The Two Witnesses.

This is very simple. God is very blunt about it. There is no guesswork allowed, nor room for choice. God said it. That is how it will be.

.

Hi John,

Good work there. Just to add a bit more detail. A `Witness` is someone who has seen or heard something. Thus the two Witnesses of Christ are witnessing of what they have seen and heard from Christ - His death, resurrection and ascension.

`Then behold, two men talked with Him, who were Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of His decease which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.` (Luke 9: 30 & 31)

Here we read of the Lord talking to two men, Moses and Elijah concerning what He was about to do - go to the cross. Then later we see these same two men at other significant times - the tomb and the ascension.

`And it happened, as they were greatly perplexed about this, that behold, two men stood by them in shining garments. Then as they were afraid and bowed their faces to the earth, they (the two men) said to them (disciples) "Why do you seek the living among the dead? he is not here, but is risen...` (Luke 24: 4 - 6)

`And while they looked steadfastly towards heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven." (Acts 1: 10 & 11)

Thus we see that these `two men,` Moses and Elijah knew of the Lord`s sacrifice, His burial and resurrection and finally His ascension into heaven. They are precisely the two men who will be qualified to talk to Israel in the tribulation, for they represent the `law and the Prophets,` and are a `witness` to the Messiah - His death, resurrection and ascension.

That is why they are called `witnesses.` What have they witnessed? - Jesus on earth, talking of His departure, His resurrection and ascension, plus speaking of His return in like manner. Who best qualified to speak of those things but the two witnesses - eye witnesses - Moses & Elijah.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums