You are confusing two different events.
No, their bodies will be be raised during the rapture/resurrection event.
Those dead martyrs are given white robes and told to 'sleep' until their number is completed.
Unscriptural nonsense.
I do not see 1 Thess 5:10, as referring to death, only our normal nights sleep. If it does mean death, it still doesn't prove we go to heaven when we die. That cannot happen before Judgment, Rev 20:11-15
Does that place have to stay where it is forever and can He bring it with Him? I believe He can bring it with Him. The new heaven will not be far from the new earth the way heaven (the third heaven) is currently far from earth. So, I believe Jesus will be bringing (the new) heaven to us, rather than taking us there. Scripture simply does not come anywhere near supporting this any time rapture view that you believe in. Jesus will only be descending from heaven once in the future, not twice.
I believe "the clouds" refer to the same thing as "the clouds of heaven" that are referenced in Daniel 7:13 where the clouds of heaven brought Jesus before the Ancient of Days (the Father) at His ascension. The clouds of heaven is a figurative reference to His angels. So, the need for "in the clouds" is the fact that His angels will be with Him when He comes.
Yet, you are completely unable to explain why we will meet Jesus "in the air" instead of just meeting Him in heaven if that's where we (supposedly) will end up. But, I have a plausible explanation for that. You are trying to sweep this under the rug because you know it reveals yet another weakness in your own view.
That won't happen, so I don't need to worry about that.
Do you understand that He said this while the souls of believers were still in Abraham's bosom and not in heaven yet? They went to heaven after His death and resurrection and the souls of the dead in Christ have been going to heaven ever since.
They are not on earth. They are physically dead and their souls are in heaven. They are in the presence of the Lord there which is why they can ask Him directly how long it will be until their deaths are avenged.
You say that applies forever, not scripture. He wasn't saying that they could never go to heaven. The souls of the dead in Christ are in heaven now, so He clearly wasn't saying they could never come there.
Same thing. He was not saying they could never go there. You are adding that to the text. No one is going there bodily, but the souls of the dead in Christ are there. That's where the altar referenced in Revelation 6:9 is: in heaven.
Our home eventually will be the new earth where we will have immortal bodies, but until then the home of the souls of the dead in Christ is in heaven.
The context is to not take us out of this world BODILY while we face trials and tribulations on the earth and to instead protect us while we are alive. But, once we're dead, then our souls go to be with the Lord in heaven. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Cor 5:6-8).
The altar is in heaven. Where else would it be? You are sadly mistaken.
LOL. They are in heaven, so, of course it's not normal as we know it on earth, but they are certainly conscious there. You act like they are conscious for a short time and then take a long nap and that pattern repeats itself, which is complete nonsense.
That's figurative text. It's not as if we will literally go hide in literal chambers. Jesus is perfectly capable of protecting us without us having to literally go hide somewhere. We will be "in the air" at that time. As in, not on earth or in heaven. That's what scripture tells us.
Remember the time I said you come across as very immature? Yeah. At least you're consistent.
LOL. Says the guy whose default is to assume everything is literal unless it's completely spelled out to him in the most obvious way possible.
He is bringing that place to us rather than bringing us there. According to 2 Peter 3:10-13, the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in just after His return. So, heaven, being made new, will be brought to us and will be near us at that point rather than being far away from us as it is now.
We've already been over this several times before. You think something can't be a symbol unless it's explained somewhere. I disagree and I've given examples where symbols are not explained. I'm not going to keep having this same argument with you over and over again. No, thanks.
At least you dropped the tern "need".
I still say that it needs to happen that way because we obviously can't be left on the earth while fire is coming down on the entire earth. Do you think Jesus does things that He doesn't believe He needs to do? We're just going to meet Him in the air for no reason?
There's no basis whatsoever for seeing those as being separate events. Just because two passages about His second coming don't have all the same details doesn't mean they are talking about entirely different events.
I'm obviously not a pretribber, so why are you saying this to me?
It's only the final, global wrath of God that comes down when Christ returns. As described in passages like 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12. What is described there is not going to last 5 months. Paul described it as "sudden destruction". This idea that Jesus is going to descend from heaven and then go back to heaven and then later descend from heaven again is not taught anywhere in scripture.
