Great Tribulation

Douggg said:

Jesus personally is coming to receive us, who believe in him, take Him at His Word, to Himself. Because that is what He said He would do. Why are you questioning it?

Click to expand...

I'm not questioning that and you know it. I'm saying He will receive us to Himself "in the air", not in heaven. I've made that very clear.

When someone is unable to support their doctrine, this is what they often resort to - personal insults. You're making it as if I'm questioning Jesus. That's ridiculous. I would never do that and I don't believe anyone here, including you, would ever do that. But, here you are accusing me of doing that.

I'm not questioning Jesus, I'm questioning your understanding of what He said.

The raptured/resurrected Christians meet Jesus in the air - because the rapture/resurrection event does not take place at the Second Coming when Jesus is returning to this earth, not air, when He will stand here on earth on the Mt of Olives.

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Click to expand...

Once again, you have failed to explain WHY we would meet Him in the air if we're just going to end up in heaven, anyway, rather than just being caught up directly to heaven.

Douggg said:

Yes, and they are Christians in heaven.

Click to expand...

Their souls are in heaven, this does not mean a conscious existence there.

Douggg said:

No, but it does show that men can go to heaven, if they are saved.

Click to expand...

The GT martyrs are a special case, having your soul kept under the Altar in Heaven is reserved for those killed for their faith. Ready for that, are you?

Douggg said:

And of course, where do you think you will be in the interim - between this present earth is completely destroyed, and the works therein - and the new heaven and new earth in Revelation 21 ?

Click to expand...

'Sleeping' in the grave, along with every other dead person; like David; Acts 13:36
Time will pass without my noticing it and my next conscious moment will be as I stand before God on His Great White Throne.

Douggg said:

It is just my guess.

Click to expand...

You do a lot of that.
What is needed by people who study the Prophetic Word, is firstly to clear your mind of all of mans teachings. Concentrate solely on the Bible; on what the Prophets actually say.
Then use common sense and logic to understand what God is trying to do here. He wants to achieve for Himself, a people who have freely chosen to serve Him, who keep His Commandments and who implicitly trust in Him for their protection during the forthcoming times of trial.
Out of the billions of people who have ever lived, only comparatively few will finally get to be with God for Eternity. We have our chance to qualify for that NOW.

Spiritual Jew said:

I'm not questioning Jesus, I'm questioning your understanding of what He said.

Click to expand...

You wrote in your post in post #84. "There will be a rapture, but not to heaven"

That's your position.

My position is that Jesus will come for them who are looking for him, and receive to Himself and take the raptured/resurrected saint to heaven - where he has prepared the mansions in His Father's house.

Spiritual Jew said:

Once again, you have failed to explain WHY we would meet Him in the air if we're just going to end up in heaven, anyway, rather than just being caught up directly to heaven.

Click to expand...

I am not going to continue to answer the same question over and over, more than I already have.

Your position that "There will be a rapture, but not to heaven" is wrong.

keras said:

Their souls are in heaven, this does not mean a conscious existence there.

Click to expand...

keras, they are praising God and Jesus. They are full conscious of their existence and what they are doing.

Douggg said:

You wrote in your post in post #84. "There will be a rapture, but not to heaven"

That's your position.

Click to expand...

Yeah, so?

My position is that Jesus will come for them who are looking for him, and receive to Himself and take the raptured/resurrected saint to heaven - where he has prepared the mansions in His Father's house.

Click to expand...

My position is that He will come to receive us to Himself "in the air" and He will bring what He has prepared for us directly to us (instead of taking us to it) in the form of the new heavens and new earth.

I am not going to continue to answer the same question over and over, more than I already have.

Click to expand...

In other words, you don't have any explanation for why would we need to meet Him in the air first before being taken to heaven. Why not just say so?

Your position that "There will be a rapture, but not to heaven" is wrong.

Click to expand...

You have the right to have that wrong opinion.

Douggg said:

keras, they are praising God and Jesus. They are full conscious of their existence and what they are doing.

Click to expand...

Here's one of the rare things we can agree on. Doesn't Revelation 6:9-11 make it clear that they are conscious while they are in heaven? I believe so.

Spiritual Jew said:

In other words, you don't have any explanation for why would we need to meet Him in the air first before being taken to heaven. Why not just say so?

Click to expand...

1Thessalonians4:14
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him [with Jesus].

Where will God bring the resurrected dead in Christ to ?

To Heaven, where in the Father's house are the many mansions.

It is God's decision to bring the resurrected death and the transformed living to heaven. Jesus acts on the Father's will.

Spiritual Jew said:

In other words, you don't have any explanation for why would we need to meet Him in the air first before being taken to heaven. Why not just say so?

Click to expand...

It is not a case of being a "need". It is Jesus fulfilling the will of God in 1Thessalonians4:13-18.

Spiritual Jew said:

Here's one of the rare things we can agree on. Doesn't Revelation 6:9-11 make it clear that they are conscious while they are in heaven? I believe so.

Click to expand...

Kinda difficult to have much of a life being stuck under the Altar.
It is obvious from Revelation 6:9-11, that the dead martyrs are allowed to cry out at times. Then they are told to rest for a little longer, until they are joined by all their brethren who will be put to death.

The belief of a normal conscious existence in heaven for any human person, is never said to happen and Jesus said 6 times that it was impossible.
The Millennium period will be like heaven on earth. Isaiah 65:18-25, Isaiah 2:1-5

Douggg said:

It is not a case of being a "need". It is Jesus fulfilling the will of God in 1Thessalonians4:13-18.

Click to expand...

So, you apparently think we will meet Him "in the air" for no real reason that can be discerned? I disagree. We will meet Him in the air rather than in heaven or on earth for a reason. The reason we will meet Him "in the air" is that He will be sending down fire on the entire earth when He returns (2 Peter 3:10-12), so we obviously can't be left on the earth in that case.

keras said:

Kinda difficult to have much of a life being stuck under the Altar.

Click to expand...

This shows your lack of being able to differentiate between figurative and literal text. They are not stuck under the altar. That is ridiculous. That's just a figurative description of where they are. They are in heaven and I'm sure are not just stuck there in one place.

It is obvious from Revelation 6:9-11, that the dead martyrs are allowed to cry out at times. Then they are told to rest for a little longer, until they are joined by all their brethren who will be put to death.

Click to expand...

They aren't told to take a nap, as you seem to think. They are told to rest in the sense of resting easy (not worrying about it) and being patient while waiting for their deaths to be avenged.

The belief of a normal conscious existence in heaven for any human person, is never said to happen and Jesus said 6 times that it was impossible.

Click to expand...

Where did He say that? Don't claim something like that without backing it up with scripture.

Douggg said:

1Thessalonians4:14
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him [with Jesus].

Where will God bring the resurrected dead in Christ to ?

Click to expand...

The air, as 1 Thess 4:17 says. Verse 14 is talking about the souls of the dead in Christ being brought with Jesus when He comes. Their souls will unite with their changed bodies after they are resurrected.

To Heaven, where in the Father's house are the many mansions.

Click to expand...

That is not at all what that verse is saying. Good grief.

It is God's decision to bring the resurrected death and the transformed living to heaven. Jesus acts on the Father's will.

Click to expand...

Yet, scripture never teaches this.

Spiritual Jew said:

The air, as 1 Thess 4:17 says. Verse 14 is talking about the souls of the dead in Christ being brought with Jesus when He comes. Their souls will unite with their changed bodies after they are resurrected.

Click to expand...

No, in verse 16, that would be Jesus, not the Father, bringing the souls with him, to reunite with their resurrected bodies.

Verse 14 is about the will of God - where the dead in Christ, after being resurrected - where they are brought with Jesus to. Which is brought to heaven.

God's will is that the raptured/resurrected saints are brought to heaven. Which ties together the verses about Jesus coming and receiving the saints unto himself - and going to His Father's house - heaven - where he has been preparing the mansions.

Spiritual Jew said:

So, you apparently think we will meet Him "in the air" for no real reason that can be discerned? I disagree.

Click to expand...

You are the one trying to make in the air - a "need". And if you are going so far to say there is a need for it, then what about the resurrected saints and the raptured saints caught up together in the clouds, also in verse 17, what is your "need" for that?

Douggg said:

No, in verse 16, that would be Jesus, not the Father, bringing the souls with him, to reunite with their resurrected bodies.

Click to expand...

Yes, it's Jesus who will be bringing the souls of the dead in Christ with Him. Verse 14 doesn't say otherwise, so I'm not following your reasoning here.

Verse 14 is about the will of God - where the dead in Christ, after being resurrected - where they are brought with Jesus to. Which is brought to heaven.

God's will is that the raptured/resurrected saints are brought to heaven. Which ties together the verses about Jesus coming and receiving the saints unto himself - and going to His Father's house - heaven - where he has been preparing the mansions.

Click to expand...

Except scripture never teaches this. It says we will meet Him in the air. Can you show me where Paul said we then are taken to heaven? No, you can't. Yes, Jesus will receive us unto Himself but scripture never says that will occur in heaven. It does say it will occur "in the air", though.

Douggg said:

You are the one trying to make in the air - a "need".

Click to expand...

You are the one making it as though we meet Him in the air for no reason. But, there has to be a reason. Jesus doesn't just do things randomly for no reason. You apparently think He could have just had us caught up directly to heaven, but He just randomly decided for no reason that we would meet Him "in the air" first instead.

And if you are going so far to say there is a need for it, then what about the resurrected saints and the raptured saints caught up together in the clouds, also in verse 17, what is your "need" for that?

Click to expand...

Because, we are all together as one because of the blood of Christ, so that event will illustrate that as well. It goes along with this passage:

Hebrews 11:39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

We all (all believers from all-time) are one in Christ, so why wouldn't we all be caught up together instead of separately?

Spiritual Jew said:

Except scripture never teaches this. It says we will meet Him in the air. Can you show me where Paul said we then are taken to heaven? No, you can't. Yes, Jesus will receive us unto Himself but scripture never says that will occur in heaven. It does say it will occur "in the air", though.

Click to expand...

Where is the place that Jesus has been preparing?

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Spiritual Jew said:

Because, we are all together as one because of the blood of Christ, so that event will illustrate that as well.

Click to expand...

But why in the clouds ? You are claiming there is a need for "in the air". Well in the same verse is in the clouds. What is need for "in the clouds".

What this discussion is generated from is that you have come up with an ill-conceived theory to support the Amil view. And if the raptured/resurrected saints go to heaven with Jesus, which is God's will - that blows your whole theory.

keras said:

Kinda difficult to have much of a life being stuck under the Altar.

Click to expand...

Jesus said who so ever believes in him will never die.

John 11:

26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Douggg said:

Jesus said who so ever believes in him will never die.

Click to expand...

The martyrs whose souls are kept under the Altar in heaven, are physically dead. it is their souls, or better put: their spirits, which await their resurrection. Many millions killed for their faith, all since Stephen, the first one, and still added to today. They must wait until, the GWT Judgment, but those who will be killed during the 3 1/2 year rule of Satan on earth; will be raised when Jesus Returns. Revelation 20:4
Going to live in heaven is never said to happen.

Spiritual Jew said:

Where did He say that? Don't claim something like that without backing it up with scripture.

Click to expand...

It seems I have to constantly re-post the proof verses that we humans never go to live in heaven. Eventually God and therefore heaven comes here to dwell with mankind.
Jesus said:

1/ John 3:13 No one has gone up into heaven, except the One who came down from heaven, the Son of Man.
Jesus is talking about the things of heaven, truths that apply forever.


2/ Revelation 2-3 Those who are victorious over Satan and who persevere until the end, will receive the crown of Life.
They are the people seen in Revelation 6:9-14. On earth, as proved by the first 3 verses of Revelation 7.


3/ John 7:33-34…I am going away to Him who sent Me and where I go, you cannot come.
A plain statement that also applies forever.


4/ John 8:21-23 Again He said: Where I go, you cannot come. You belong to this world below, I to the world above….
Our home is the earth, we are earth people and not spirits and even after the Millennium, those worthy will become immortal, but will still remain on earth. Revelation 21:1-4


5/ John 17:15 I do not pray that You take My people out of this world, but to keep them from the evil one.
Jesus was talking to God and what He asked applies to all Christians. Remember: we pray for God’s Kingdom to come on earth as it is in heaven and it will, with the New Jerusalem.


6/ Revelation 5:10 You have made them priests for our God and they shall reign on earth.
This refers to every faithful Christian, people from every tribe, race, nation and language, they shall reign on earth. That is our destiny, we never go to heaven, only our souls sleep under the Altar, if we are martyred. Revelation 6:9-11
That they are allowed to cry out at times, does not mean they are alive, in the normal sense.
All scripture is as Written in the Revised English Bible.