"Escapist eschatology" to get out of environmental obligations now

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eclipsenow

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If you had bothered to read the Petition Project you would know the answer, because it tells us there were some who signed the Petition in a way to discredit it, but that names that did not belong were removed.
Ah, so they deleted the obvious fakes like Donald Duck and Luke Skywalker so that all the other fakes seemed more credible? Sorry, but other legit organisations found many signatories had NOT signed - indeed - someone had put their names on there WITHOUT their consent.

REALLY reliable survey.

Not that science is based on surveys but empirical methods, data, and peer-reviewed scientific debate.


The real conspiracy as I have been overwhelmingly proving with my posts,
The quantity is overwhelming - and a little rude.
But the quality? Well - I don't know - because I thought we were still discussing the Petition Project. But you're in such a rush to copy and paste entire Alt-Right websites I'm not sure that this is a discussion any more.

Some for $$$$ that comes as grants from BIG MONEY GLOBALISTS
This again? Seriously?
The real big money comes from fossil fuels.
The energy business is....

$10,000,000,000,000.00 every year!
Yes, $10 TRILLION a year.

Government kick backs to fossil fuel corporations are in the order of HALF a trillion a year globally, $600 BILLION in the USA alone - equal to the entire American military budget!

If you think the big lobbying money comes from 'greenie globalists' you're kidding yourself.


 
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rwb

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Thank God we have informed lobbyists for fossil fuel, otherwise this is what America could face.

What if fossil fuel disappeared tomorrow?

Some of the more extreme climate and fossil fuel activists want all fossil fuel extraction to crease almost immediately – see Protest blockade and backlash.

What would happen to the world if they got their wish? A prediction for the USA:

What If Atlas Shrugged?

by David Deming

Atlas Shrugged is the title of Ayn Rand’s 1957 novel in which the world grinds to a halt after the productive segment of society goes on strike. Tired of being demonized and exploited, the world’s innovators and entrepreneurs simply walk away.

What would happen to the US today if the fossil fuel industry went on a strike of indefinite duration? What would happen if we gave the environmentalists what they want?…

Within 24 hours there would be long lines at service stations as people sought to purchase remaining stocks of gasoline. The same people who denounce oil companies would be desperately scrounging the last drops of available fuel for their SUVs. By the third day, all the gasoline would be gone.

With no diesel fuel, the trucking industry would grind to a halt. Almost all retail goods in the US are delivered by trucks. Grocery shelves would begin to empty. Food production at the most basic levels would also stop.…

With no trains or trucks running there would be no way to deliver either raw materials or finished products. All industrial production and manufacturing would stop. Mass layoffs would ensue. At this point, it would hardly matter. With virtually all transportation systems out, the only people who could work would be those who owned horses or were capable of walking to their places of employment.

Owners of electric cars might smirk at first, but would soon be forced to the unpleasant reality that the vehicle they thought was “emission free” runs on coal. Forty-two percent of electric power in the US is produced by burning coal.

With natural gas also out of the picture, we would lose another 25 percent. The environmentalist’s favorite power sources, wind and solar, could not fill the gap. Wind power currently generates about 3 percent of our electricity and solar power accounts for a scant 0.04 percent. The only reliable power sources left would be hydroelectric and nuclear. But together these two sources could only power the grid at 27 percent of its normal capacity. With two-thirds of the electric power gone, the grid would shut down entirely.

And Anthony Watts adds:
  • After elevated tanks of municipal water systems were depleted of drinking water in a few days, there would be no more water supply. This would force people to start looking for alternate sources, and we’d be back to a time when water treatment was unknown. Disease and death would follow for many as tainted water spreads disease. People with water wells would have to tear out electric pumps and install hand pumps or windmills to get water.
  • Related to the first point, toilets would be useless without water to flush them. Fecal matter disposal becomes an issue as gravity fed sewage systems eventually clog, and eventually fecal matter will end up in streams and rivers contributing to the spread of diseases much like the Great Stink in old London.
  • Garbage collection becomes a thing of the past. Garbage will be piled high in the streets.
  • People that have grid tied solar power systems would be no better off than their neighbors, because the DC to AC inverters require an AC power grid presence signal. Otherwise they shut off for safety. Some people with electrical skills might be able to rewire them, but then they’d only have electricity during daytime.
  • People who may have working solar energy might be targeted by the have-nots. They might wish they had paid attention to the Second Amendment to protect their home based energy source. People who still have gasoline in their cars trying to escape cities might find themselves victims of mob attacks as the have-nots look for the last remaining bits of energy. Mad-Max world ensues.
  • Windmill farms (that also need grid presence to operate) will stand as icons of folly, unusable, and cursed by the populace since they can’t make use of them. Eventually they’ll all look like these wind farms or fall down.
  • Without air conditioning, city dwellers would truly experience the Urban Heat Island effect in the summer, that is when they weren’t scrounging for food and water, and fighting off the Mad-Maxer gangs who would take anything they could from them, including their life.
  • Wood burning to stay warm during the winter becomes all the rage again. Smoke pollution returns to cities, especially in winter.
  • Real climate refugees start streaming south from high latitude countries as people run out of fuel. Many towns in Alaska and Siberia that survive only because of regular supplies of heating oil and gasoline would be abandoned.
  • Global warming, environmentalism, politics; all would be a thing of the past, since survival trumps everything.
From Life After Energy: What if fossil fuels disappeared tomorrow?

This illustrates a major world problem – fossil fuels have serious downsides like pollution and climate change, but we are extremely reliant on them to function as heavily populated societies.

New Zealand is nowhere near as reliant on fossil fuels as some counties (like the US and Australia) but we are very reliant on fossil fueled transport.

Pulling the plug on fossil fuel use won’t happen because it would be catastrophic. We have to reduce use and move to alternatives as quickly as possible, but that is probably going to take a long time.
 
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eclipsenow

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Thank God we have informed lobbyists for fossil fuel,
How original - quoting WUWT. I mean, RAIR than WUWT? For reals? :doh:Just a little bit predictable - like your rotating through 5 or 6 denial arguments to every post I put up? :oldthumbsup: "in 2013 Michael E. Mann referred to it as the leading climate change denial blog."

So are you conceding that the Petition Project was an untrustworthy farce of a document?

Are you also conceding that the $10 TRILLION dollar energy industry has vastly more money to pump into propaganda than the greenies?

And it DEFINITELY sounds like you're saying suddenly running out of cheap abundant energy would be a bad thing! That's how I became an environmentalist, by the way. I wasn't sure on climate change - but I WAS sure that we were going to run out of cheap oil soon. Peak oil is coming. Peak gas and then peak coal will follow. Now we can't even afford to burn the remaining OIL ALONE from a climate point of view, and there's enough gas and coal to cook the planet FIVE TIMES OVER.

But here's the point. We will run out one day. And because all mineral extraction from conventional sources runs on a bell curve, production will peak roughly half way through the resource and move from ever increasing supplies of cheap energy to ever decreasing supplies of constantly more expensive and harder to get expensive fossil fuels.

Unless we leave fossil fuels before they leave us.
Unless we do the right thing and save lives, clean up our air, and get home grown renewable energy and nuclear energy growing exponentially while weaning off this 'cheap coal' that costs the same price again in our health bills!
Hubbert_world_2004.svg.png
 
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rwb

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We can live with giving the oil companies huge barrels of money, because they are after all only in the business to make as money as possible. The big oil companies are not sleeping with the enemy of mankind, and they don't desire to destroy American way of life as the greenie globalists are. And until the lunatic left took over our government here, Americans could pretty much count on fair prices for our energy and gas bills. Of course, now that has ended because Biden and company are in bed with the greenie globalist cabal whose desire is to destroy not only the American way of life, but humanity as it exists today.

But now I will sign off this post or I fear I might again be reported for offending by presenting overwhelming evidence against the greenie agenda to remake mankind by destroying societies the world over to implement their new world order as a socialist communistic people under the authority of those who wish to control every aspect of human lives.

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 (KJV) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
 
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eclipsenow

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We can live with giving the oil companies huge barrels of money,
Why? We should be switching those huge barrels of money to huge battery-packs of money so America and Australia and other countries can have LESS DEATHS per energy unit, and MORE ENERGY SECURITY immune from overseas shocks induced by the 2022 energy crisis.

because they are after all only in the business to make as money as possible.
Oh, so you're into Communism after all? I thought all good Right Wingers liked a FREE market, not huge government subsidies on everything? Yeah, as long as it is a finite, dirty, polluting, dangerous, life-taking, geo-politically sensitive fossil fuel approved by the TEA Party - THEN it qualifies for a government subsidy! :doh:

The big oil companies are not sleeping with the enemy of mankind,
No - cause ever since they started funding anti-science they BECAME the enemy of mankind.

and they don't desire to destroy American way of life as the greenie globalists are.
Honestly we've been over this. That's like tarnishing the whole of Christianity by chanting "Jones-town Jones-town Jones-town.)

And until the lunatic left took over our government here, Americans could pretty much count on fair prices for our energy and gas bills.
Where have you been? You sound like you need to listen to the BCC's Global News podcast each day - it will better inform you as to what is going on. You don't seem to know what's happening in the world - at all!

Of course, now that has ended because Biden and company are in bed with the greenie globalist cabal whose desire is to destroy not only the American way of life, but humanity as it exists today.
As we say in Australia...

Yeah, naah.

A bunch of global factors have come together to raise energy AND food costs around the world and Biden simply doesn't have the power (or MOTIVATION!) to do this. How does a drought in Brazil causes energy prices to go up? Well, they rely on hydropower so they've got less water going downhill and ooops - there's more demand for gas and coal imports. How do La Nina floods in Australia cause energy prices to go up? Well, our right-wing government delayed a wise and MORALLY REQUISITE move into renewables so we're stuck with old coal plants that break down AND La Nina floods have flooded many coal mines.

Oh yeah, and there's this little thing called the RUSSIAN INVASION OF THE UKRAINE! 30% of the EU's petroleum oil imports and 39% of total gas imports came from Russia in 2017.

Try any normal news outlet. Even free market champions like The Economist will back me up.


The Energy Crisis Is Global

The right way to fix the energy crisis | Jun 25th 2022 | The Economist

Natural Gas Soars 700%, Becoming Driving Force in the New Cold War

Australia’s energy crisis explained: from price caps to the suspension of electricity trading

2021–present global energy crisis - Wikipedia


But now I will sign off this post or I fear I might again be reported for offending by presenting overwhelming evidence against the greenie agenda to remake mankind by destroying societies the world over to implement their new world order as a socialist communistic people under the authority of those who wish to control every aspect of human lives.

Blah blah blah! You ignored forum rules about presenting your own arguments, and just copied and pasted entire website articles - not just the relevant paragraphs - at a ratio of 3 or 4 posts for every one of mine. That's a Gish Gallop and against forum rules and polite behaviour!


2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 (KJV)
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Yep - I agree. Alt-Right websites could be described this way! :doh:

I'll follow up with Philippians 4:

And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things.

To be a more helpful and productive disciple of Jesus I recommend abandoning the Alt-Right website diet you've been consuming, sticking with the bible, and sticking with more centrist newspaper diet. Be alert for the world's agenda on sexuality and everything - but stop seeing the devil behind every single science report. There are many Christians in climate science - read those. Watch Katharine Hayhoe's youtube channel.

Because there's a real conversation we need to have about how to live as Christians in an age of climate change - and we can't have that when people are simply in Denial.
 
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eclipsenow

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What God says about it all.⬆️
God's word says he loves this world and declares it good. You probably already know this next bit - but the bible also uses the phrase 'world' in the New Testament to refer to the general anti-God vibe of those who live without Christ as their Lord. I'm just asking us not to confuse verses about ungodly people with verses about this material universe and this planet. He really loves this creation - and we should be stewards of it in the sense that it is not ours to plunder - but ours to care for under his Kingship. Because we are Stewards in the sense that we care for it on behalf of another. It's God's. It really is his.

And while we are busy about the work of the gospel, we are to be salt and light to the world. We are to be distinctively Christian. We are to do good works not because we are nice people, but with so much gospel spoken in our lives that people praise our Father because of it. They know we do good, and they know WHY we do good! Our Father is like this.

I just don't see how bad eschatology gets us out of this responsibility. CO2 is real, and does certain things we KNOW - that are written down in really old physics textbooks. To deny this is to deny gravity or the boiling point of water at sea level or other sciencey stuff. Climate change is real, and because we know how much CO2 does how much warming, we can use the Radiative Forcing Equation to calculate how much extra heat will be trapped by how much CO2. (A few key paragraphs on that below.) Calculating how much extra heat is tricky to lay people to myself - but not hard for the experts. But calculating WHERE that extra heat will go - that's still hard even for the experts and involves the climate models. There have been recent refinements in the models that show there could be catastrophic results in various poorer countries.

How is being in denial of all this godly for Christians and helpful to our witness? It's not like we get to read Revelation as a blueprint of 'what is going to happen next' because:-
1. John wrote it to his generation as a sermon on suffering, reminding them of the grand vision of the gospel promises we can hold onto in tough times. It's about tyrants - and reminds us that even tyrants will be judged by the true king. It's about when nature is in chaos - and compares that to the judgements against ancient Egypt under Moses. It's about persecution - and reminds us those who stay true will receive a name from the Father. It's about destruction of this world's order - and the renewal of all things under the slain lamb.
2. If he didn't write to them then John is callous and basically saying "You guys think you've got it bad under the Romans - wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!"
3. Every generation of futurists thinks theirs is THE generation! They have done since millennial fears started a few hundred years ago with the rise of cults like JW's and Mormons.

Want to see what's happening in our more immediate future? Hey - I don't know if the Lord is returning in 4 seconds or 40,000 years - but I have to stay ready! But here's one main predictor - the Radiactive Forcing.


Radiative forcing (or climate forcing[1]) is the change in energy flux in the atmosphere caused by natural or anthropogenic factors of climate change as measured by watts / metre2.[2] It is a scientific concept used to quantify and compare the external drivers of change to Earth's energy balance.[3]: 1–4  System feedbacks and internal variability are related concepts, encompassing other factors that also influence the direction and magnitude of imbalance.

Positive radiative forcing means Earth receives more incoming energy from sunlight than it radiates to space. This net gain of energy will cause warming. Conversely, negative radiative forcing means that Earth loses more energy to space than it receives from the sun, which produces cooling. A planet in radiative equilibrium with its parent star and the rest of space can be characterized by net-zero radiative forcing and by a planetary equilibrium temperature.[4]

Radiative forcing on Earth is meaningfully evaluated at the tropopause and at the top of the stratosphere. It is quantified in units of watts per square meter, and often summarized as an average over the total surface area of the globe. Radiative forcing varies with solar insolation, surface albedo, and the atmospheric concentrations of radiatively active gases - commonly known as greenhouse gases - and aerosols.
Radiative forcing - Wikipedia

What does that mean? Well, as I said above WHERE this extra heat goes is harder to model. But current indications are that ENSO cycles (El Nino / La Nina - how the hot water in the Pacific moves around) will get more severe. Australia's NEVER seen both fires and floods like we've had in the last few years. California is in a weird place with their droughts. Brazil has an awful drought, so bad that much of their hydropower is failing forcing them to turn to natural gas which of course is part of the world energy crisis.

But longer term? By 2050 grain yields could be down 25% as the world's population is up 25%. Does that mean war and starvation for billions? Who can say? Maybe FERMING food instead of FARMING will give each nation food security? (But of course - you and other conspiracy theorists have already labelled that a GLOBALIST CONSPIRAY - when it could be the only hope of feeding the human race and helping the poor eat. Whatever. Suit yourself.)
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Eclipse, you use excessive propagana that is anti God, anti Bible, and anti man.
God made earth for Adam. Adam sold it to corruption by his eating the forbidden fruit.
Death (an evil spirit/a satan), and Corruption (an evil spirit/a satan) got control over all flesh on earth at Adam's fall.
The Messiah was promised and had already been planned before the creation of the earth.
Adam got cast down and out of the 3rd heaven, where Paradise is, on the east side of Mount Eden, and earth was corrupted, and all flesh is subject to death and corruption. Man toils to get his food, fighting the elements of decay to do it.
God blesses and God curses men, families and nations according to their obedience or disobedience to Him. Nations rise, nations fall according to their relation to God and belief in His Word.
 
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JulieB67

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It's not like we get to read Revelation as a blueprint of 'what is going to happen

It is exactly that lol. Why do you think Christ revealed it all to John?? Just because you see 2000 years have passed and question it's relevance to past generations doesn't change that. There is only one Revelation of Jesus Christ, that's it. The Lord's day has not happened. So anything prior, present and future of that is still relevant.

1. John wrote it to his generation as a sermon on suffering, reminding them of the grand vision of the gospel promises we can hold onto in tough times

It is most definitly not a sermon.

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass.

The very word Revelation is Greek word apokalupis from the word disclosure, appearing, coming, lighten, manifistatio, be revealed, revelation.

Christ gave this revelation to John to show things that will shortly must come to pass. That's exactly a blueprint of what's going to happen. How are you not seeing that as the very definition is mind boggling.
You are fixated on the word shortly because you continue to not view time as our Father does. Christ states at the end of Revelation that he comes "quickly" We know he hasn't returned yet. So again we have to view it as our Father would. John was in the spirit on the Lord's day and told to write about the past, present and future. That means, these things have still yet to unfold. It will happen to one generation and that's the warnings that Christ, Paul and John give, watch for that day, watch for the things that "must" happen before he arrives. But instead you gloss over those warnings and rather ring the bell on climate change. You are putting worldy issues over the importance of being a watchman. It's good to take care of the earth, but we are promised a new heaven and earth. And God states this earth will stay the same (all seasons) until he returns. You are trying so hard to either sway Christians from their watch or either you really enjoy arguing. Not sure.

Newsflash though, being a watchman is not a waste of time in someone's life whether it happens in their generation or not. Most live very full lives not fretting every moment. Especially when we do have the blueprint and promises -God's word.

You on the other hand I believe are constantly fretting over things that are in God's hands.
 
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eclipsenow

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Eclipse, you use excessive propagana that is anti God, anti Bible, and anti man.
No - all truth is God's truth.
You've lost the beauty of science as a means to glorify God.
This is what happens when we buy into conspiracy theories - we read the book of God's word and forget to read the book of God's works.

God made earth for Adam.
Incorrect - he made this entire universe - including Adam - for God's own glory and pleasure.


Adam sold it to corruption by his eating the forbidden fruit.
Sort of.

Death (an evil spirit/a satan), and Corruption (an evil spirit/a satan) got control over all flesh on earth at Adam's fall.
Um.... interesting. So Death is an evil spirit? You sure you're getting your ideas from the bible?

The Messiah was promised and had already been planned before the creation of the earth.
Yes! Some solid Reformed doctrine there. I approve.

Adam got cast down and out of the 3rd heaven, where Paradise is, on the east side of Mount Eden,
(sound of record player scratching across the tracks...)

Say what? Um, you know that Dante's Inferno is not scripture, right?
 
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yeshuasavedme

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“Eclipse, you use excessive propagana that is anti God, anti Bible, and anti man.

1. God made earth for Adam.
Psalm 8:
3 When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers,
The moon and the stars, which You have ordained,
4 What is man that You are mindful of him,
And the son of man/Adam that You visit him?
5 For You have made him a little lower than the angels,
And You have crowned him with glory and honor.
6 You have made him to have dominion over the works of Your hands;
You have put all things under his feet,
7 All sheep and oxen—
Even the beasts of the field,
8 The birds of the air,
And the fish of the sea
That pass through the paths of the seas.
9 O Lord, our Lord,
How excellent is Your name in all the earth!


Adam sold it to Corruption and Death by his eating the forbidden fruit.
Corruption and Death are evil spirits. Evil spirits are satans. Adam, son of God, sold it to the chief Satan. It belonged To Adam and his offspring. Adam was king of earth, with dominion/rulership over it.

Messiah is YHVH in the Person of God the Word who put on the second creation flesh, created new,, with the New Man name, “Israel”, (Isaiah 49 and 59) in the womb of an Adam flesh virgin female, so as to be reverse adopted into the race of Adam, with the authority and power to ransom back the kingdom His deceased (as son of God, Adam, brother (Luke 3:38) sold, and to atone, by His sinless blood, for the seed of the Adam, and to adopt them into His New Man creation’s One Living Spirit/Messiah Spirit, Son of God, to replace and ransom the kingdom which Adam, former son of God of the flesh kind, lost to Death and Corruption at the fall.
Death (an evil spirit/a satan), and Corruption (an evil spirit/a satan) got control over all flesh on earth at Adam's fall.
The Messiah was promised and had already been planned before the creation of the earth, to Ransom it back, and to sit as King over it forever, in that second creation flesh body, ruling it in place of the dead in spirit Adam brother.
He had to ransom the kingdom given to Adam, and redeem the seed of Adam by His Blood atonement.
When He sits on His ransomed throne in heaven, and rules over earth, all creation will worship Him thus:

Revelation 5
8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”
11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice:

“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”
13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:

“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”
14 Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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“ Death (an evil spirit/a satan), and Corruption (an evil spirit/a satan) got control over all flesh on earth at Adam's fall”.

Genesis 3:15 The serpent speaking was not a snake with legs. a whole host of evil angels were created in the beginning, when Adam was, and they have been created to test and try the Adam creation and the holy watcher angels in heaven. There is one chief of them, and they were never holy and they exist to serve God in that they are the testers, which try every man to see what sort he is, whether he will obey the Creator or not. their reward for their service is to torture and torment their captives forever, in the Lake of Fire, which was made for Satan and his angels from the beginnig.who never repented and believed the Truth.
The belly of the earth in Genesis 3:15 is Sheol, the hole, the pit, which one of the Satans became king of at the fall of Adam. His name is Abaddon, which means Destruction.
TH dust the evil spirits, the satans eat is the flesh, by corruption of it, of all the living souls on earth, even the flesh of the animals and all creatures that Adam was king of, and sold to Death, Corruption, and Destruction at the fall, have Corruption working on their flesh from the moment it comes into it’s being.

Revelation 9:11 And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.

49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.


The chief Satan has to get permission to touch those who belong to God by the Covenant. The satans appear in the courts of heaven, at the assemblies of the sons of God before the throne, to accuse those who belong to God, as we see in Job, where God actually was the cause Satan was allowed to test Job, by asking him, “have you considered my servant Job…”
In the history book of Jasher, satan got permission to test Abraham in the same manner as in Job, and so Abraham was tested…and Isaac.
in the NT, Paul says we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness in the heavenlies (over earth); those are satans.

In Revelation, those satans, with their one chief, war against Michael and his angels, and are cast out of heaven, to earth. They accuse the saints day and night before the throne, but no more, after that, which happens after the rapture and the pillars of earth are reset, as Psalm 75:2, and 3 in the original language describes.
Rev 12:
7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they [a]did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

satan asked for Peter, to sift him as wheat…
“ 31 [d]And the Lord said, “Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.”
 
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eclipsenow

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“Eclipse, you use excessive propagana that is anti God, anti Bible, and anti man.

In reality I'm discussing the bible and science. If you could leave your alt-right "Saint Trump" echo chamber for a moment, you might be able to taste a little fresh air and hear some real news for once. Science and evolution and climate change are things. Early Genesis is true, just not the way you think it is. It's theology, not science, mytho-history, not literal history.



6 You have made him to have dominion over the works of Your hands;
You have put all things under his feet,

Yep - we sure have dominion over it. But WHY was the universe made? That's what I was discussing.

Adam sold it to Corruption and Death by his eating the forbidden fruit.
Corruption and Death are evil spirits.
No they are not.
Assertion is not evidence.
Assertion is not data.
Assertion is just your opinion but one has to back up one's opinion to sound remotely credible.


Messiah is YHVH in the Person of God the Word
Try to stay on one subject - you're getting off topic and missing the woods for the trees.

Death (an evil spirit/a satan), and Corruption (an evil spirit/a satan) got control over all flesh on earth at Adam's fall.
Not it didn't! See how this works?
You asserted.
I asserted something different.
Nothing was achieved.
We can play this game all day - or you can actually try and find some evidence for your claims.

While thinking about death, try to remember GOD told Adam he would die ON THE DAY that he sinned. But Adam still lived a long time after that. What happened to ON THE DAY he sinned? I think it was spiritual death - because physical death occurred later. Ever notice that? Anyway, GOD handed Adam and Eve over to spiritual death because of our rebellion. Then physical death occurs later. But I don't think it needs a demon to do that. God just gave them over to the natural process of ageing - note that they no longer had access to the 'tree of life' whatever that was.

The Messiah was promised and had already been planned before the creation of the earth,
Yeah, nah, different subjects. For now you've done nothing to justify your unusual take on death and corruption above, and nothing to justify why Christians should ignore climate change science which is demonstrably true. I'm going to stick with the Archbishop of Cantebury's statement:


“There is no guarantee that the world we live in will 'tolerate' us indefinitely if we prove ourselves unable to live within its constraints. Is this – as some would claim – a failure to trust God, who has promised faithfulness to what he has made? I think that to suggest that God might intervene to protect us from the corporate folly of our practices is as unchristian and unbiblical as to suggest that he protects us from the results of our individual folly or sin. This is not a creation in which there are no real risks; our faith has always held that the inexhaustible love of God cannot compel justice or virtue; we are capable of doing immeasurable damage to ourselves as individuals, and it seems clear that we have the same terrible freedom as a human race. God's faithfulness stands, assuring us that even in the most appalling disaster love will not let us go; but it will not be a safety net that guarantees a happy ending in this world. Any religious language that implies this is making a nonsense of the prophetic tradition of the Old Testament and the urgency of the preaching of Jesus.”

From the Church of England Archbishop Rowan Williams, "Renewing the Face of the Earth: Human Responsibility and the Environment"
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Eclipse, Adam was created to be the absolute, firstborn (a position) king of the earth. He had to be tested and pass the test to be able to live his “Day” (a thousand year day), and be translated to the glory form. He did not live his “day” and he died in spirit to the Father’s glory, and got cast down to earth.
He failed the test.
He got cast down and out of heaven, where he was raptured /laqach to, from earth below, and set in Paradise on the east side of Mount Eden, there, which is in the third heaven.

Your Scripture ignorance is jaw droppingly shocking, since you are posting on a Christian board, and your false accusations about my person are truly not only false, but evil.

There is no “universe” in the Bible, though men commonly speak of it as so, and there is only the stretched out heavens, which were stretched out from this globe named “Earth” between the cut in two waters of creation, on day 2 of creation week in at least 3 stories, or layers, as the Word states.

2 Corinthian
12 It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord: 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 how he was caught up into Paradiseand heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Mount Eden is in the third heaven. Adam was set there in the beginning, in Paradise, and was to rule over all the earth, from there.
He was to multiply and fill the earth, and going in and out of heaven was done freely.
When Adam was cast down after he sold earth into Corruption, Death and Destruction, the way back in was guarded by Cherubim with flaming swords, lest Adam seek to enter and eat the Tree of Life and live forever in defiled flesh, unclean forever, and only fit for the Lake of fire.
But God knew it would happen, and had already planned the Ransom back, and the Redemption of the seed of Adam by the blood of Atonement of the Kinsman/Redeemer, who is YHWH, in the Person of God the Word, who put on the garment of flesh created new, with a New Man name (Israel is His Name -Isaiah 49), created new in the womb of a virgin, a female Adam person, betrothed to Joseph, a male Adam person in line for the throne of David, by law and by nature, and so, as legal Redeemer/Kinsman to the Adam brother’s seed and lawful heir to David’s throne, He had the legal right, the authority, and the power to ransom the kingdom Adam sold to Death and Corruption.
He will return to earth to cleanse it of every unclean thing and establish the Sabbath Millennium, and will reign over it for that 7th millennial Day, as Firstborn Son of God, so as to restore it for the one plan He, as God the Word, the Creator, made earth for, in the beginning of creation, when He made it for Adam, son of God (Luke 3:38).
then…he burns it all up, both the heavens and the earth, on the elemental atomic level, and forms it all brand new, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, and it goes on forever for it’s purpose of being where God gets sons of the flesh kind to build His temple not made with hands, to plant the heavens by, as Scripture teaches.
 
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eclipsenow

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Eclipse, Adam was created to be the absolute, firstborn (a position) king of the earth. He had to be tested and pass the test to be able to live his “Day” (a thousand year day), and be translated to the glory form. He did not live his “day” and he died in spirit to the Father’s glory, and got cast down to earth.
He failed the test.
He got cast down and out of heaven, where he was raptured /laqach to, from earth below, and set in Paradise on the east side of Mount Eden, there, which is in the third heaven.
Adam's original dwelling place = incorrect.

Your Scripture ignorance is jaw droppingly shocking, since you are posting on a Christian board, and your false accusations about my person are truly not only false, but evil.
Incorrect.

There is no “universe” in the Bible, though men commonly speak of it as so, and there is only the stretched out heavens, which were stretched out from this globe named “Earth” between the cut in two waters of creation, on day 2 of creation week in at least 3 stories, or layers, as the Word states.
Semi-correct - they had Ancient Middle Eastern Cosmology but we've spoken about that before and you are in denial that the 'floodgates' are actually referenced.

Revelation 12:
Er - no. It's from 2 Corinthians 12.
Slow down - you're panicking and making mistakes.


God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 how he was caught up into Paradiseand heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.​

I think that's more metaphor - left over ancient cosmology. As the ESV commentary says:

12:2 a man in Christ. Although he speaks indirectly, Paul clearly means himself.

third heaven. According to a common enumeration, the first heaven was the atmosphere of the birds and clouds, the second was the sky in which we see the stars, and the third would be heaven, the dwelling place of God. For fourteen years Paul had not made this experience a focus of his teaching, as some would have done. His focus was the message of Christ: “what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord” (4:5).
2 Cor 12:2 - ESV Reformation Study Bible - Bible Gateway



Mount Eden is in the third heaven.
That seems to be a non-canonical reference.

In the non-canonical Second Book of Enoch, Third Heaven is described as a location "between corruptibility and incorruptibility" containing the Tree of Life, "whereon the Lord rests, when he goes up into paradise." (chapter 8) Two springs in the Third Heaven, one of milk and the other of honey, along with two others of wine and oil, flow down into the Garden of Eden. (verse 6) In contrast with the common concept of Paradise, the Second Book of Enoch also describes it as "a very terrible place" for those who do wrong, with "all manner of tortures" inflicted by merciless angels on "those who dishonour God, who on earth practice sin against nature," including sodomites, sorcerers, enchanters, witches, the proud, thieves, liars and those guilty of various other transgressions. (chapter 10)
Third Heaven - Wikipedia


...And more stuff about Adam which is off-topic and irrelevant.

Hey, if this global warming thing ISN'T real as you assert - why did God let every physics lab on the planet show how CO2 traps heat?
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Eclipse, I do not read 2 Enoch. It is not Scripture. You accuse me of lots of false things, but your Bible knowledge is, as I said, jaw droppingly ignorant, and what I wrote in those posts are not from anything but the BIBLE, itself.
Bible fact:
Genesis 2: 8 YHVH Elohym planted a Garden/Paradise in Eden, on the eastward side.
15: then YHVH Elohym took/laqach/raptured/ removed from one place to another the Adam
And put/set/placed him in the Garden of Eden/Paradise to tend and guard it.

Bible fact: The Tree of Life is in the midst of the Garden/Paradise, on Mount Eden, in the third heaven, from which Adam was cast down.

Revelation 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Paul was caught up/raptured to the third heaven, to Paradise.
Eden is in the third heaven. Bible fact.
Paradise is on the east side of Mount Eden.
The Tree of Life is in Paradise, on Mount Eden, in the third heaven.
Adam was cast down and out of the third heaven, from Paradise on Mount Eden.
Adam died in spirit the day he ate the fruit, and was no longer "Adam, son of God"
Luke 3:38.
Psalm 82: in original Hebrew, God/EL warns the congregation of the "gods/rulers/mighty ones...that they are in danger of dying like Adam, the one prince (son of God)
⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️
ALL BIBLE FACTS
 
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eclipsenow

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Eclipse, I do not read 2 Enoch.
Seems like you do.

droppingly ignorant,
Well, let's see.

and what I wrote in those posts are not from anything but the BIBLE, itself.
OK - here we go! Evidence!

Genesis 2: 8 YHVH Elohym planted a Garden/Paradise in Eden, on the eastward side.
Ba-BOW! Sorry, thank you for playing. Please do not insert stuff into the text.

NIV
8 Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
ESV
8 And the Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9 And out of the ground the Lord God made to spring up every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food.


15: then YHVH Elohym took/laqach/raptured/ removed from one place to another the Adam
And put/set/placed him in the Garden of Eden/Paradise to tend and guard it.

Nothing about another dimension mentioned in the ESV commentary or being 'raptured' - but their is a connotation to it being a paradise-like prairie. But it was always about THIS EARTH being good - not Adam made in some other place and 'raptured' here - that's quite unorthodox.

Gen 2:8–14
2:8–14 The Creator, by providing man with every blessing, pressed upon him the claims of God’s love and made his rebellion inexcusable (Rom. 1:20). Mankind was meant for fellowship with God in the garden; his expulsion from that paradise is unnatural.
Gen 2:8–14 - ESV Reformation Study Bible - Bible Gateway


Gen 2:8
2:8 garden. A sanctuary where God invites humanity to enjoy fellowship and peace with Him. Cherubim protect the garden’s sanctity (3:24 and note; Ex. 26:1; 2 Chr. 3:7) so that sin and death will be excluded (3:23; Rev. 21:8). Faith and obedience are prerequisites for living in this place of special communion with God.

in the east. In biblical times the east, where the sun rises, represented life and light (3:24 note).

Eden. The origin of the term “Eden” is disputed; it may derive from an Accadian term meaning “plain” or “prairie,” or from the Hebrew term meaning “pleasure” or “delight” (from which the association of Eden with the term “paradise” derives). Eden was apparently the region in which the garden was located (v. 10). The mention of Assyria and the Tigris and Euphrates rivers (v. 14 and text note) indicates a location east of Palestine in Mesopotamia.
Gen 2:8 - ESV Reformation Study Bible - Bible Gateway


The Tree of Life is in the midst of the Garden/Paradise, on Mount Eden, in the third heaven, from which Adam was cast down.
Revelation 2:7

Enough already - this thread is about how Christians are to view the scientific reality of climate change given we are living in the last days - and have been for 2000 years.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
What a surprise - the most symbolic book of the bible draws on the symbol of eternal life in Genesis!

Paul was caught up/raptured to the third heaven, to Paradise.
Eden is in the third heaven. Bible fact.
Absolutely NOT - that's just a funky bit of creative joining-the-dots-that-should-never-be-joined on your part. Actually quite poor joining the dots if you ask me! Your fiction!

The opening drama of the bible explains the creation of THIS WORLD and the beauty of it and Adam's special garden - and then how he was banished from a special garden when the first humans sinned. There's a lot of symbolism there. It's about us being in a special relationship with God, then falling, and losing that special relationship, and how scary this world becomes without him.

Paradise is on the east side of Mount Eden.
Yeah, I know - you've got your own special geography of the third heaven all worked out. And if I discuss it with you much further you might be tempted to draw a map or something. Please don't bother. This thread is not about your funky fictions.

It's about this.
294953847_3274451042792309_7563637876353625728_n.jpg
 
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