Jesus is the SON not the Father.

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edpobre

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21st March 2003 at 11:52 PM Ezra said this in Post #242



How familiar with the Bible are you personally? If you were, you could not make such statements, so your information must be second-hand.

Ezra,

It does NOT matter how familiar or unfamiliar I am with the Bible. The TRUTH remains that Jesus is a MAN (John 8:40) and the Father is the ONLY true God (John 17:1,3).

You can read the Bible yourself or get your pastor or priest to read these verses to you. Either way, what Jesus SAYS in these verses are SELF-EXPLANATORY.

Ed
 
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lared

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Hi Laura,

The following is some information that may help in regard to bowing.

Hish·ta·chawah´ means, basically, "bow down." (Ge 18:2) Such bowing might be done as an act of respect or deference toward another human, as to a king (1Sa 24:8; 2Sa 24:20; Ps 45:11), the high priest (1Sa 2:36), a prophet (2Ki 2:15), or other person of authority (Ge 37:9, 10; 42:6; Ru 2:8-10), to an elder relative (Ge 33:1-6; 48:11, 12; Ex 18:7; 1Ki 2:19), or even to strangers as an expression of courteous regard (Ge 19:1, 2). Abraham bowed down to the Canaanite sons of Heth from whom he sought to buy a burial place. (Ge 23:7) Isaac's blessing on Jacob called for national groups and Jacob's own "brothers" to bow down to him. (Ge 27:29; compare 49:8.) When men started to bow down before David's son Absalom, he grabbed them and kissed them, evidently to further his political ambitions by making a show of putting himself on a level with them. (2Sa 15:5, 6) Mordecai refused to prostrate himself before Haman, not because he viewed the practice as wrong in itself, but doubtless because this high Persian official was an accursed Amalekite by descent.-Es 3:1-6.

From the above examples it is clear that this Hebrew term of itself does not necessarily have a religious sense or signify worship. Nevertheless, in a large number of cases it is used in connection with worship, either of the true God (Ex 24:1; Ps 95:6; Isa 27:13; 66:23) or of false gods. (De 4:19; 8:19; 11:16) Persons might bow down in prayer to God (Ex 34:8; Job 1:20, 21) and often prostrated themselves upon receiving some revelation from God or some expression or evidence of his favor, thereby showing their gratitude, reverence, and humble submission to his will.-Ge 24:23-26, 50-52; Ex 4:31; 12:27, 28; 2Ch 7:3; 20:14-19; compare 1Co 14:25; Re 19:1-4.

Bowing down to humans as an act of respect was admissible, but bowing to anyone other than Jehovah as a deity was prohibited by God. (Ex 23:24; 34:14) Similarly, the worshipful bowing down to religious images or to any created thing was positively condemned. (Ex 20:4, 5; Le 26:1; De 4:15-19; Isa 2:8, 9, 20, 21) Thus, in the Hebrew Scriptures, when certain of Jehovah's servants prostrated themselves before angels, they only did so to show they recognized that these were God's representatives, not to render obeisance to them as deities.-Jos 5:13-15; Ge 18:1-3.

Sincerely, Lared
 
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edpobre

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Yesterday at 11:29 PM chaizzilla said this in Post #263

If you are in a church or group or congregation that believes in the doctrine that "Jesus and the Father are one and the same God," God says in Rev. 18:4: "Come out of her my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues."

god is not this petty. :angel:

Why do you consider God petty for saying what is written in Rev. 18:4? Why do you think God said what He said in Rev. 18:4?


Ed
 
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All4Christ

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Ed, I would like to ask you a question. Would you reply to the verses that we give you that support the trinity, and not just avoid them by repeating your verses? We know that your verses say what they say....that's why we have have the theory of the trinity. Forgive me if I'm being rude.  Need the verses repeated?  Ask....

Maybe do what Lared did....Lared took the verses that I gave and responded to them by explaining why they didn't work (in Lared's opinion).  I still hold to what I believed before, but answering in that way instead of using the same verses helps improve the creditability of the person.  Just a suggestion.  I know I also need to improve my own posts etc.  So I'm not saying that I'm not perfect.  Um.....Once again, I hope I didn't offend you.  Forgive me if I was rude. 

God Bless You!
 
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edpobre

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27th March 2003 at 05:37 AM All4Christ said this in Post #265

Ed, I would like to ask you a question. Would you reply to the verses that we give you that support the trinity, and not just avoid them by repeating your verses? We know that your verses say what they say....that's why we have have the theory of the trinity. Forgive me if I'm being rude.  Need the verses repeated?  Ask....

May I suggest that you go back to the verses which you believe support the Trinity and OBJECTIVELY, ask yourself if these verses TRULY say what you want these verses to say. Take John 10:30 for example. It says, "I and the Father are ONE." Does the verse TRULY say that "Jesus and the Father are ONE God? Now, COMPARE this with John 17:1,3 and tell me, WITHOUT interpreting the verses, WHO is the ONLY true God? 

Take John 20:28 for example. Thomas says to Jesus, "My Lord and my God." Was Thomas addressing "my God" to Jesus or to God the Father? I don't think so. Nobody has gone into Thomas' head to know for sure. However, granted without admitting that Thomas was addressing "my God" to Jesus, does that mean that what Jesus SAID in John 17:1,3 is NULLIFIED because of what Thomas said? NO WAY! Jesus is the LORD - not Thomas!

Maybe do what Lared did....Lared took the verses that I gave and responded to them by explaining why they didn't work (in Lared's opinion).  I still hold to what I believed before, but answering in that way instead of using the same verses helps improve the creditability of the person.  Just a suggestion.  I know I also need to improve my own posts etc.  So I'm not saying that I'm not perfect.  Um.....Once again, I hope I didn't offend you.  Forgive me if I was rude.

I used to do that too. As you may notice, I have been here in this forum for a while.  I learned that as long as people REFUSE to BELIEVE and accept what Jesus SAID in John 8:40 and John 17:1,3, they will NEVER accept any explanation of these verses OTHER than what they have been TAUGHT to believe.

As to my credibility, I keep telling people NOT to believe me because I am NOTHING. Just BELIEVE what Jesus SAYS (John 3:16; 3:18,35) and DO the things he says (Luke6:46).

Ed
 
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All4Christ

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Thank you for explaining your position.....though I do not appreciate that you accusing me of not looking at them objectively. I could say the same to you. However, I am not going to, because as you said, I cannot look into your mind and see if you are looking at it objectively, just as you claim we cannot go into Thomas' mind to see if he was truly addressing Jesus as God or God the Father as God. I have looked at the verses many times as I have read the through the Bible many times. I have tried to be objective, and as far as I know, I have been objective. I am not claiming to be an expert, and I have seen your points with a few of the verses that you have shown, yet there are some which you have not addressed, and which I have tried to examine, which still seem to support the trinity...especially when viewed at in their context. Nonetheless, I want to thank you for responding and explaining your position.
 
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OldShepherd

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Yesterday at 09:15 PM edpobre said this in Post #266

Take John 20:28 for example. Thomas says to Jesus, "My Lord and my God." Was Thomas addressing "my God" to Jesus or to God the Father? I don't think so. Nobody has gone into Thomas' head to know for sure. However, granted without admitting that Thomas was addressing "my God" to Jesus, does that mean that what Jesus SAID in John 17:1,3 is NULLIFIED because of what Thomas said? NO WAY! Jesus is the LORD - not Thomas!
Yes Ed, we all know that your Bible only has two verses, your entire belief system is built on those two verses. You post those same two verses, over and over and over again and ignore the rest of the Bible.

Let's take a look at John 20:28, in context, and see what the Bible really says.

  • John 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
    27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
    28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
    29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

  1. [*]Vs. 27, Jesus speaking to Thomas!
    [*]Vs. 28, Thomas addressing HIM, i.e. Jesus, NOT them, as in Jesus and God.
    [*]Thomas says to Jesus, “THE lord of me and THE God of me
    [*]Jesus, standing directly in front of Thomas and heard his words, does NOT correct Thomas or tell him that He, Jesus, is not God!
    [*]Vs. 29, Jesus praises Thomas for his confession and praises future generations who believe, that He is Lord and God, although they have not seen Him.

The name of the Creator, "(יהוהYHWH),” applied to Jesus in the N.T.. Isa 40:3 applied to Jesus by all four gospels.

  • Jn 1:23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias. (Mt 3:3 Lu 3:4 Mk 1:3)

    Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD "(יהוהYHWH)”, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Psalm 23:1, says, The LORD "יהוהYHWH” is my shepherd." Jesus very clearly applied this passage to Himself in John 10:11, 14 when He said, "I am the good shepherd." And the writer of Hebrews also applied this passage to Christ in Hebrews 13:20, when he wrote, "The God of peace . . . brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord"— Jesus our "יהוהYHWH


  • Philp 2:10 That at the name of Jesus (יהוהYHWH, Isa 45:23) every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
There are at least twenty six (26) O.T. passages, quoted in the N.T., in which the name of the Creator, יהוהYHWH is addressed or applied to Jesus, these are only a few examples.
 
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edpobre

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1st April 2003 at 12:55 AM OldShepherd said this in Post #268
Take John 20:28 for example. Thomas says to Jesus, "My Lord and my God." Was Thomas addressing "my God" to Jesus or to God the Father? I don't think so. Nobody has gone into Thomas' head to know for sure. However, granted without admitting that Thomas was addressing "my God" to Jesus, does that mean that what Jesus SAID in John 17:1,3 is NULLIFIED because of what Thomas said? NO WAY! Jesus is the LORD - not Thomas!

Yes Ed, we all know that your Bible only has two verses, your entire belief system is built on those two verses. You post those same two verses, over and over and over again and ignore the rest of the Bible.

These are words of Jesus OldShepherd. Would you advise your grandchildren NOT to believe Jesus? 

[*]Jesus, standing directly in front of Thomas and heard his words, does NOT correct Thomas or tell him that He, Jesus, is not God!
[*]Vs. 29, Jesus praises Thomas for his confession and praises future generations who believe, that He is Lord and God, although they have not seen Him.[/list]

Please open your mind OldShepherd.

First, Jesus did NOT correct Thomas for SAYING "my God" because Thomas did NOT say anything wrong. Jesus KNEW that Thomas did NOT address "my God" to him. Thomas was and still is a TRUE disciple of Christ who BELIEVED in him and ABIDED in his word (John 8:31).

Second, Your belief that Jesus PRAISED Thomas for confessing that he is Lord and God and PRAISES future generations who believe that he is Lord and God, although they had not seen him is WRONG!

Look at verse 25 OldShepherd and see what Thomas did NOT believe unless he sees Jesus and puts his fingers in his side. Thoms did NOT believe that Jesus HAD risen.

This is what Jesus admonished Thomas for. And this is why Jesus said that blessed are those who believe (that he was raised from the dead) although they had NOT seen him.

There are at least twenty six (26) O.T. passages, quoted in the N.T., in which the name of the Creator, יהוהYHWH is addressed or applied to Jesus, these are only a few examples.

The word "LORD" does NOT  mean God OldShepherd. "Lord" means
"master." As a matter of FACT God MADE Jesus both LORD and Christ (Acts 2:36).

Again I say, TRUST in the Lord and don't rely on what you think you know. Jesus said he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the Father is the ONLY true God (John 17:1,3). TRUST Jesus OldShepherd and BELIEVE!

Ed 
 
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OldShepherd

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4th April 2003 at 09:24 PM edpobre said this in Post #270

OS: Yes Ed, we all know that your Bible only has two verses, your entire belief system is built on those two verses. You post those same two verses, over and over and over again and ignore the rest of the Bible.
These are words of Jesus OldShepherd. Would you advise your grandchildren NOT to believe Jesus? 

Please open your mind OldShepherd.
My mind is open. You are the one with the closed mind. I believe the Bible, ALL the Bible! You believe only two verses.
First, Jesus did NOT correct Thomas for SAYING "my God" because Thomas did NOT say anything wrong. Jesus KNEW that Thomas did NOT address "my God" to him. Thomas was and still is a TRUE disciple of Christ who BELIEVED in him and ABIDED in his word (John 8:31).
You need to look again Pobre, here is what the verse says, "Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God." Thomas said TO HIM, Jesus. He wasn't just talking into the air. Can you see that Ed? Take a good look, open your eyes and open your mind. In the Greek, Thomas is saying TO JESUS, "The Lord of me and the God of me, to Jesus". It is NOT the correct form in Greek for an exclamation! Thomas was a devout Jew and would never say "My God" in vain!
This is what Jesus admonished Thomas for. And this is why Jesus said that blessed are those who believe (that he was raised from the dead) although they had NOT seen him.
So Jesus just stood there and ignored when Thomas said TO HIM, TO JESUS, "My Lord and My God?"
The word "LORD" does NOT  mean God OldShepherd. "Lord" means "master." As a matter of FACT God MADE Jesus both LORD and Christ (Acts 2:36).
I know what Lord means Pobre but you are still closing your eyes and your mind, Thomas didn't just say Lord to jesus, he said TO Jesus, "My Lord and My God."

You need to get out of your Manolo church and read the Bible and TRUST Jesus Pobre and BELIEVE! Since you did NOT understand what I posted before here it is again.

]Let's take a look at John 20:28, in context, and see what the Bible really says.

  • John 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
    27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
    28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
    29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

  1. [*]Vs. 27, Jesus speaking to Thomas!

    [*]Vs. 28, Thomas addressing HIM, i.e. Jesus, NOT them, as in Jesus and God. [And NOT speaking into the air]

    [*]Thomas said TO Jesus, “THE lord of me and THE God of me

    [*]Jesus, standing directly in front of Thomas and heard his words, does NOT correct Thomas or tell him that He, Jesus, is not God!

    [*]Vs. 29, Jesus praises Thomas for his confession and praises future generations who believe, that He is Lord and God, although they have not seen Him.
 
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This thread just keeps on going.......

This verse(Jesus said He is a MAN: John 8:40)has been posted so much, totally out of context, and being referred to as "the words of Jesus" that it deserves to be written in its entirety, the way Jesus spoke it.  To say "i believe in what Jesus sais" and then cut Him off in the middle of a sentence is, well, no belief at all.  In the sales world they call that 'cherry picking'. Could we at least let Jesus finish His sentence?  

And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being."  The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.  the first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.  As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.  And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. (1Cor.15:45-49)

Heavenly Man.  Jesus was not like the first Adam, made of dust, or made from another man. He therefore, as it sais, is HEAVENLY. A life-giving spirit.  Do men of dust give life?  Or does God alone give life.  When Jesus said, ....Me, a man...  He did not in any way indicate that He was as the 1st Adam, on the contrary. By reading His entire sentence in John 8, He tells us what manner of 'man' He is:

 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 

He goes on to say: If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech?  Because you are not able to listen to My word.

Loving the Father means loving Jesus, since He proceeded forth and came from........God.  It coincides with the other frequently quoted verse here....the ONLY true God(John 17), also out of context and which has been shown, knowing ONE is knowing both.

 Jesus DID NOT say, Me, a Man as you, or any other man, but Me a Man who has told you the truth which came FROM God.  

The Jews to whom He was speaking then accuse Him of having a demon, because He promises any who keep His words that they shall not see death, and Abraham, their father had already died. There, He tells them they shall not see death. Just as the life-giving spirit mentioned in 1cor above.  Jesus tells them, and us, He is a Man yes, but not as they, or Abraham, their father, who die, but one that gives LIFE.  Only a heavenly man, divine in nature, can possibly give life. 

   They ask Him..."who do You make Yourself out to be?"  To which He tells them the honor He has is His Fathers, God's, and He knows Him.  After His final statement: Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM........they pick up stones and throw them at HIM! 

I dont think the Jews made it a practice to kill and stone men for being just A MAN.  But one who's very words speak of being God Himself would definately prompt this kind of act. 

 

 

 

 

     

   
 
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edpobre

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Today at 06:57 AM EveOfGrace said this in Post #272

This thread just keeps on going.......

This verse(Jesus said He is a MAN: John 8:40)has been posted so much, totally out of context, and being referred to as "the words of Jesus" that it deserves to be written in its entirety, the way Jesus spoke it.  To say "i believe in what Jesus sais" and then cut Him off in the middle of a sentence is, well, no belief at all.  In the sales world they call that 'cherry picking'. Could we at least let Jesus finish His sentence?  

And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being."  The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.  the first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.  As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.  And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. (1Cor.15:45-49)

Heavenly Man.  Jesus was not like the first Adam, made of dust, or made from another man. He therefore, as it sais, is HEAVENLY. A life-giving spirit.  Do men of dust give life?  Or does God alone give life.  When Jesus said, ....Me, a man...  He did not in any way indicate that He was as the 1st Adam, on the contrary. By reading His entire sentence in John 8, He tells us what manner of 'man' He is:

 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 

He goes on to say: If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech?  Because you are not able to listen to My word.

Loving the Father means loving Jesus, since He proceeded forth and came from........God.  It coincides with the other frequently quoted verse here....the ONLY true God(John 17), also out of context and which has been shown, knowing ONE is knowing both.

 Jesus DID NOT say, Me, a Man as you, or any other man, but Me a Man who has told you the truth which came FROM God.  

The Jews to whom He was speaking then accuse Him of having a demon, because He promises any who keep His words that they shall not see death, and Abraham, their father had already died. There, He tells them they shall not see death. Just as the life-giving spirit mentioned in 1cor above.  Jesus tells them, and us, He is a Man yes, but not as they, or Abraham, their father, who die, but one that gives LIFE.  Only a heavenly man, divine in nature, can possibly give life. 

   They ask Him..."who do You make Yourself out to be?"  To which He tells them the honor He has is His Fathers, God's, and He knows Him.  After His final statement: Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM........they pick up stones and throw them at HIM! 

I dont think the Jews made it a practice to kill and stone men for being just A MAN.  But one who's very words speak of being God Himself would definately prompt this kind of act.

EveOfGrace,

Do you CONFESS with your tongue that Jesus is Lord (Phil. 2:11)? If your answer is YES, let me remind you what Jesus SAID: "But why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord' and do NOT do the things which I say" (Luke 6:46)?

Jesus SAID he is a MAN (John 8:40). If Jesus is your Lord and SUBMIT yourself to his authority, why do you STRIVE to DISPROVE what he SAID about himself?

UNTIL Jesus HIMSELF says that he is NOT a MAN, the TRUTH of John 8:40 WILL stand until Jesus comes again. What will you say to him when he asks you: "EveOfGrace, what did I SAY I am when I was still there on earth?"

Wil you tell Jesus, "Lord, you said you are God?"

Ed
 
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Thats a silly question Ed, since Jesus talks with me NOW.  He doesnt have to wait till He returns to find out what i call Him or say Who(not what) He is. That would be too late since His purpose of return is to gather those that are already His. 

He said alot of things Ed. He said MORE than just I am a Man. What i posted told ALL of His words in that sentence and in the entire conversation He was holding with the Jews of that time.  I dont think that was striving to disprove what He said, just completing what He said instead of picking out one phrase without the rest of His words.  He also said there, 'before Abraham was, I AM".   

What you are saying, is because He was a man, He could not ALSO be divine. That He could have only 1 nature, an earthly nature just as any other ordinary man.  That is NOT what He said.

I have never said He wasnt a man. He was. But that is not ALL He was. If i were to focus on His flesh nature alone, see only that flesh, i would be making the very mistake that the Jews He was addressing had made.  Not understanding His words and from Whom He spoke them.  He said, "I proceeded forth and came from God."  Proceeded forth........He already existed before He became A Man.  The man Jesus, WAS, before Abraham, the I AM. 

So when He asks me, now, "Eve, who do you say that I am?"  My answer is.........."You ARE, the Son of the living God".

 

The angel to Mary: And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God. (Luke 1:35)

Mary's song: My soul magnifies the Lord, And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior. (Luke 1:47)

 
 
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edpobre

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Yesterday at 06:10 PM EveOfGrace said this in Post #274

Thats a silly question Ed, since Jesus talks with me NOW.  He doesnt have to wait till He returns to find out what i call Him or say Who(not what) He is. That would be too late since His purpose of return is to gather those that are already His. 

He said alot of things Ed. He said MORE than just I am a Man. What i posted told ALL of His words in that sentence and in the entire conversation He was holding with the Jews of that time.  I dont think that was striving to disprove what He said, just completing what He said instead of picking out one phrase without the rest of His words.  He also said there, 'before Abraham was, I AM".   

What you are saying, is because He was a man, He could not ALSO be divine. That He could have only 1 nature, an earthly nature just as any other ordinary man.  That is NOT what He said.

I have never said He wasnt a man. He was. But that is not ALL He was. If i were to focus on His flesh nature alone, see only that flesh, i would be making the very mistake that the Jews He was addressing had made.  Not understanding His words and from Whom He spoke them.  He said, "I proceeded forth and came from God."  Proceeded forth........He already existed before He became A Man.  The man Jesus, WAS, before Abraham, the I AM. 

So when He asks me, now, "Eve, who do you say that I am?"  My answer is.........."You ARE, the Son of the living God". 

The angel to Mary: And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God. (Luke 1:35)

Mary's song: My soul magnifies the Lord, And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior. (Luke 1:47)

 

EveOfGrace,

You are correct in saying that Jesus is the Son of God - NOT God the Son. Being the Son of God does NOT make Jesus God the Son.

Suppose Jesus asks you WHO the ONLY true God is EveOfGrace, what would your answer be?

Ed
 
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Being the Son of God does NOT make Jesus God the Son.
Why not?  Where is that written?  Father gave Jesus all authority, as King, as judge, as Lord and has exalted Him to recieve glory, to rule and reign.  No one comes to Father but by Him. Jesus came to earth not to be served, but to serve.  Because He CHOSE that position, as servant, to do the work His Father and ours gave Him to do, to save the world, does that take away His divinity?  God made Himself lower than the angels, in His Son, that the Son would be exalted in due time.  That time is come. His power to forgive, by Himself, and to give life was never removed even when He made Himself lowly, for our sakes.  The bible sais that in Him ALL the fullness of the Godhead dwells, bodily.  Godhead=deity, having divine nature.  He was man, and He IS God.

In all our years Jesus has never asked me, "Who is the only true God" because I understand His authority, His divinity, His position within that Godhead.  I cannot, nor ever could, approach the throne of grace or Father without going through Jesus, they are One.  They are both seated in heaven, side by side and there is no other Way to Father than through the Son.  Holy Spirit unites us and is also ever present.  Jesus isnt a separate or lessor God that i pass up on my way to the true God. I pray in His, Jesus name, that what i petition WILL be done. Everything, and everyone, goes THROUGH Him. He is just as much God as Father is. They are inseparable.  They, are God.

Let US make man in OUR image.

 

  
 
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Follower of Christ

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In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men; and the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overtake it. There was a man sent from God; his name was John. He came for a witness, that he might witness concerning the Light, that all might believe through Him. He was not that Light, but that he might witness concerning the Light. He was the true Light; He enlightens every man coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, yet the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave authority to become children of God, to the ones believing into His name, who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God. And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and of truth. John witnesses concerning Him, and has cried out, saying, This One was He of whom I said, He coming after me has been before me, for He was preceding me. And out of His fullness we all received, and grace on top of grace. For the Law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
(John 1:1-17 LITV)
 
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drmmjr

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Yesterday at 11:53 PM EveOfGrace said this in Post #276

Why not? Where is that written? Father gave Jesus all authority, as King, as judge, as Lord and has exalted Him to recieve glory, to rule and reign. No one comes to Father but by Him. Jesus came to earth not to be served, but to serve. Because He CHOSE that position, as servant, to do the work His Father and ours gave Him to do, to save the world, does that take away His divinity? God made Himself lower than the angels, in His Son, that the Son would be exalted in due time. That time is come. His power to forgive, by Himself, and to give life was never removed even when He made Himself lowly, for our sakes. The bible sais that in Him ALL the fullness of the Godhead dwells, bodily. Godhead=deity, having divine nature. He was man, and He IS God.

In all our years Jesus has never asked me, "Who is the only true God" because I understand His authority, His divinity, His position within that Godhead. I cannot, nor ever could, approach the throne of grace or Father without going through Jesus, they are One. They are both seated in heaven, side by side and there is no other Way to Father than through the Son. Holy Spirit unites us and is also ever present. Jesus isnt a separate or lessor God that i pass up on my way to the true God. I pray in His, Jesus name, that what i petition WILL be done. Everything, and everyone, goes THROUGH Him. He is just as much God as Father is. They are inseparable. They, are God.

Let US make man in OUR image.
Do you actually hear what you are saying? Father gave Jesus all authority, as King, as judge, as Lord and has exalted Him to recieve glory, to rule and reign. If Jesus was God, then why would God have to give Jesus authority?

No one comes to Father but by Him. Jesus came to earth not to be served, but to serve. Because He CHOSE that position, as servant, to do the work His Father and ours gave Him to do, to save the world, does that take away His divinity? To do the work His Father gave Him to do. Not to do what He wanted, but to be a servant.

God made Himself lower than the angels, in His Son, that the Son would be exalted in due time. God didn't make Himself lower than the angels, but Jesus was made lower than the angels. If God had made Himself lower than the angels, then He wouldn't have been omnipotent or above all.

And as you have shown what Jesus said in an earlier post:
But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. If Jesus heard the truth from God, then He would have had to have been speaking to Himself.

He goes on to say: If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. Jesus plainly said that He didn't come of Himself. He came from God. He proceeded forth (to come forth from a source - Webster) from God.
 
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watcher215

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I pray this won't be pearls before swine.

While meditating on philippians 2 an interesting thing occured to me.


ONLY GOD COULD TAKE THE FORM OF A SERVANT!

Why? Everything in all creation serves God, therefore everything is already by nature in forms of a servants...to God.

Again, ONLY GOD COULD TAKE THE FORM OF A SERVANT, because He ALONE is the Self Existent Eternal God. I AM!

If Jesus is not God how can it be said he took on the form of a servant? Wasn't he ALWAYS a servant?

1 Sing to the LORD a new song, for he has done marvelous things; his right hand and his holy arm have worked salvation for him.
Psalms 98:1 (NIV)

16 He saw that there was no one, he was appalled that there was no one to intervene; so his own arm worked salvation for him, and his own righteousness sustained him.

Isaiah 59:16 (NIV)

I looked, but there was no one to help, I was appalled that no one gave support; so my own arm worked salvation for me, and my own wrath sustained me.

Isaiah 63:5 (NIV) :clap:
 
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Do you actually hear what you are saying? Father gave Jesus all authority, as King, as judge, as Lord and has exalted Him to recieve glory, to rule and reign. If Jesus was God, then why would God have to give Jesus authority?
I thought the explanation of Jesus being a servant, made lowly, God becoming Man to save all men, was&nbsp;sufficient&nbsp;as to 'why' He was given place as Judge and King.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;

Consider, the Word(with God, and was&nbsp;God)&nbsp;became flesh, dwelt among us.(John 1)&nbsp; A man. Not half man, nor&nbsp;half God.&nbsp; Fully man.&nbsp;Fully God. God, the Word,&nbsp;IN flesh(is the Son).&nbsp;When Jesus rose from the&nbsp;dead, ascended as no other had done, was His position as Man no longer viable?&nbsp; Did it make the Man Jesus disappear and exist as such no longer?&nbsp; Of course not.&nbsp; That would defeat the purpose. We know He reappeared to the disciples with scars to prove it was Him. Understand, He LEFT glory which He did have, came to earth, did the work that needed to be done, and returned, but not as He was.&nbsp; He WAS the Word,&nbsp;in glory,&nbsp;and BECAME&nbsp; the Word IN&nbsp;flesh.&nbsp; He returned, still with that flesh.&nbsp; It is the Father, who remained in heaven, in glory,&nbsp;that gave Him back the glory which He had.&nbsp; God did not separate into 2 Gods.&nbsp;God, is and&nbsp;was an US&nbsp;and a&nbsp;WE, from the beginning.&nbsp;

I have glorified You on the earth.&nbsp; I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. And now, O Father, glorify Me TOGETHER with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. (John 17:4)

God&nbsp;shares His glory with no one.&nbsp;&nbsp;Jesus had glory, together with the Father before the world was.&nbsp;&nbsp;Together. THEY are God.&nbsp; God is a THEY.&nbsp; When the&nbsp;Word's time came, to dwell in flesh, it is then that the SON was begotten.&nbsp; But He was always there, with the Father, as the Word.&nbsp; &nbsp;

Maybe just grasping that one concept, that one FACT of US and WE,&nbsp;will&nbsp;open up understanding&nbsp;to&nbsp;the&nbsp;eternal plan of salvation.&nbsp; No man was found worthy, blameless, sinless.&nbsp; God knew that from the beginning also, so&nbsp;the Word OF God came to&nbsp;us, to BE man for us, and end the curse.&nbsp; The word OF God, became the Son OF God.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;

&nbsp;&nbsp;

No one comes to Father but by Him. Jesus came to earth not to be served, but to serve. Because He CHOSE that position, as servant, to do the work His Father and ours gave Him to do, to save the world, does that take away His divinity? To do the work His Father gave Him to do. Not to do what He wanted, but to be a servant.
The question, 'does that take away His divinity?' was not answered. Does doing work take away His divine nature?&nbsp; Jesus came to serve man and&nbsp;as a lowly man Himself, to also serve God, setting an example for all men.&nbsp;&nbsp;Matt. 20, from which Jesus said, the Son of Man did not come to be served....was said to show that&nbsp;servanthood is wherein true greatness lies.&nbsp; Serving does not take away His divine nature.&nbsp;See&nbsp;watcher's post above&nbsp;even.

&nbsp;

God made Himself lower than the angels, in His Son, that the Son would be exalted in due time. God didn't make Himself lower than the angels, but Jesus was made lower than the angels. If God had made Himself lower than the angels, then He wouldn't have been omnipotent or above all.


You said: Jesus WAS MADE lower than the angels.&nbsp; I said:&nbsp; God&nbsp;MADE Himself lower than the angels, IN HIS SON.&nbsp; Which is the very same thing.&nbsp;&nbsp;God is an US remember? I didnt say the Father made Himself lower, He remained in heaven.&nbsp;&nbsp;The Son came to earth.&nbsp; Gods omnipotence, and being above all, remained, while at the same time,&nbsp;dwelt&nbsp;on earth and&nbsp;saved us all.&nbsp; True omnipitence and soveriegnty.

&nbsp;

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If Jesus heard the truth from God, then He would have had to have been speaking to Himself.
&nbsp; Hm, now you're getting it!&nbsp; And God said:Let US make man in our image.&nbsp; Speaking to?

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He goes on to say: If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. Jesus plainly said that He didn't come of Himself. He came from God. He proceeded forth (to come forth from a source - Webster) from God.
Notice 2 parts to that sentence. Part 1 ...for I proceeded forth&nbsp;and came from God.&nbsp; As you said, came forth, from His source. To come forth from a source means first existing in/with/as that source.&nbsp; Part&nbsp;1 explains&nbsp;in what/Whom in this case, He&nbsp;pre-existed.&nbsp; Part 2....nor have i come of Myself, but He sent Me.&nbsp; Nor, beginning part 2, explains the reason or motive for which&nbsp;He&nbsp;proceeded forth.&nbsp;Simply, His (1)pre-existance&nbsp;AND&nbsp;His (2)motive both are&nbsp;God.&nbsp; So if&nbsp;God, is your Father, you would love Him(Jesus) as well.&nbsp;&nbsp;
 
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