Great Tribulation

Jamdoc said:

Isaiah said he would be resurrected before the indignation.

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Isaiah 26:19 is a reference to the final Judgment; after the Millennium. Proved by Revelation 20:11-15

Note: in Isaiah 26:2, the Prophecy that a righteous nation will enter and live in the holy Land.
This will happen after the Lord's fiery wrath has passed.

keras said:

Isaiah 26:19 is a reference to the final Judgment; after the Millennium. Proved by Revelation 20:11-15

Note: in Isaiah 26:2, the Prophecy that a righteous nation will enter and live in the holy Land.
This will happen after the Lord's fiery wrath has passed.

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Sounds like some Tarrantino level storytelling, just chopping things up willy nilly to fit a square peg into a round hole.

Isaiah 26 presents a song, and it tells of the things happening at the end of the age, first, Judah will be reclaimed, and the Jews, come back into the promised land, professing that during their exile that they had been under the dominion of many lords, but in coming back to the land, they will profess only the LORD their God (Isaiah 26:13). That they had been scattered but increased in number (Isaiah 26:14), but then it describes travail (tribulation), they're in distress:

16 Lord, in trouble have they visited thee, they poured out a prayer when thy chastening was upon them.
17 Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O Lord.
18 We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.

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They are persecuted by Gentiles again, and the song calls out to the Lord to deliver them.

Then, there is the resurrection, Isaiah presents it as happening to himself.

19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

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then things happen after the resurrection. God's wrath happens after the resurrection

20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

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So what you have in this chapter, this song, tells of the Jews returning to Israel, after having been scattered over the entire world, they are then set upon and persecuted by gentiles, they call on the Lord to deliver them, and while it is not revealed in this old Testament passage, it is Jesus who comes down and delivers them, along with the resurrection, followed by the wrath of God/Indignation, to take vengeance on those who caused tribulation for both Israel (the woman in Revelation 12), and her seed, those who keep the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ (Christians)

I didn't have to chop it up and conjure up flash forwards and things out of order, I just let the text go in order, and I can find this same order of events, of Tribulation -> Return of Jesus/Resurrection/Rapture -> Wrath of God in the bible repeatedly. Unless the bible itself gives me a distinct place where it breaks Chronology, like Revelation 10:7 indicating that the 7th trumpet is the final event and it's done, and Revelation 12 going back to the birth of Jesus making a clear reset.

I get the same order, every time, without jumping around and inducing "flash forwards" to explain things that don't fit for you.

Jamdoc said:

I get the same order, every time, without jumping around and inducing "flash forwards" to explain things that don't fit for you.

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Isaiah himself said his Prophesies are not in a correct order. Isaiah 28:13

The correct order is mainly told to us in Revelation; the Seals, then later; the 7 trumpets and 7 Bowls, culminating in the glorious Return of Jesus.

Like many others, you totally miss the many prophesied fate of the House of Judah, the Jews.
They are back into a small part of the holy Land, but in apostasy and the Lord will punish them; Only a small Christian remnant will survive.

keras said:

Isaiah himself said his Prophesies are not in a correct order. Isaiah 28:13

The correct order is mainly told to us in Revelation; the Seals, then later; the 7 trumpets and 7 Bowls, culminating in the glorious Return of Jesus.

Like many others, you totally miss the many prophesied fate of the House of Judah, the Jews.
They are back into a small part of the holy Land, but in apostasy and the Lord will punish them; Only a small Christian remnant will survive.

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ah yes, you believe that the 7th trumpet declares the Kingdoms of this world become the Kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ.. and the first order of business Jesus does.. is give dominion back to Satan.

I never get how people can wrap their brain around that one and accept it, and not take the obvious break in Chronology.

Now when Isaiah makes clear breaks, like he changes subjects, or gives a distinct year of a particular King's rule as when the word of the Lord came upon him.. yeah that's not in order.
But Isaiah 26 is 1 subject.
You set a rule, that there's only 1 Resurrection, even though the bible gives 2, and interpreted the bible based on that hard rule that you set. Same with the literal 24 hour day of the Lord, same with the "nobody can go to heaven". They're rules you set.
and if scripture gives anything different than that hard rules you set, you declare it's out of order, or deny it. Like Enoch and Elijah going to heaven. You take 1 verse out of context, John 3:13, miss the forest for the trees, and determine that Enoch and Elijah did NOT go to heaven, and thus we also will not go to heaven.

But Isaiah is resurrected before the wrath of God, in Revelation 7 the saints are in heaven before the trumpets are blown, having come out of Great Tribulation (which is a clue that "Great Tribulation" doesn't mean supernatural acts of God and the wrath of God), in Revelation 15 the saints are in heaven before the bowls are poured.

That's 3 witnesses of the same truth.
Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21.. Jesus is a 4th witness of that same truth, after tribulation, but before the wrath of God the elect are gathered.

How many witnesses are needed to establish the truth?

Douggg said:

Because that is where the mansions are. And Jesus is going to personally come for them looking for Him.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

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How exactly does this answer my question about why we would meet Him in the air first if we're then immediately taken to heaven?

Jamdoc said:

ah yes, you believe that the 7th trumpet declares the Kingdoms of this world become the Kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ.. and the first order of business Jesus does.. is give dominion back to Satan.

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No I don't. Revelation 11:13, the Seventh Trumpet, is just an announcement of the future Kingdom of Jesus, that prophecy ties in with Revelation 12:7-9, when Satan is thrown out of heaven.
You comment above shows your lack of understanding of how Satan will control the world for the final 3 1/2 years of this age. Jesus will chain Satan up at His Return. Revelation 20:1-3

Jamdoc said:

in Revelation 7 the saints are in heaven

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Nowhere in Revelation 7, is heaven mentioned. You have made that up.
That whole chapter depicts earthly scenes, from the Sixth Seal event, to Eternity in Revelation 7:15-17
Proved by how God Himself comes to the earth and dwells with mankind. Revelation 21:1-7

keras said:

No I don't. Revelation 11:13, the Seventh Trumpet, is just an announcement of the future Kingdom of Jesus, that prophecy ties in with Revelation 12:7-9, when Satan is thrown out of heaven.
You comment above shows your lack of understanding of how Satan will control the world for the final 3 1/2 years of this age. Jesus will chain Satan up at His Return. Revelation 20:1-3

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Revelation 11

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

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That's present tense. It didn't happen in the past, and it's not talking about the future, it means now, the future component is that from that moment forth, Jesus reigns over the Kingdoms of the World.

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

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They're talking about final judgement in Revelation 11, the mystery of God is finished at the 7th trumpet.
also note what happens after. thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail

Revelation 16

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

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Same things as happen after the 7th trumpet. They are parallel. They are not the same, but they happen in tandem.

Nowhere in Revelation 7, is heaven mentioned. You have made that up.
That whole chapter depicts earthly scenes, from the Sixth Seal event, to Eternity in Revelation 7:15-17
Proved by how God Himself comes to the earth and dwells with mankind. Revelation 21:1-7

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They're before the throne of God, which is in heaven. Not until the New Heavens and New Earth is God's throne ever set on Earth. Earth is God's footstool until then.
not to mention, JOHN HAS BEEN WITNESSING EVENTS IN HEAVEN SINCE REVELATION 4:1

None of Revelation after the letters to the churches is witnessed from the perspective of Earth. It is all witnessed from the perspective of Heaven.

I mean, your taking 1 out of context verse and making an entire hard rule out of it and basing your doctrine on it is just silly

2 Kings 2

1 And it came to pass, when the Lord would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.
...
11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

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Matthew 17

1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.

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So Elijah was taken into Heaven, came back down to talk to Jesus on Earth, then went back up.

Hebrews 11

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

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Revelation 11

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

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It's just absolutely silly to take 1 out of context verse and have it declare all previous and subsequent mentions of people going up to heaven as being false or having to be handwaved away.

Jamdoc said:

I mean, your taking 1 out of context verse and making an entire hard rule out of it and basing your doctrine on it is just silly

2 Kings 2
Matthew 17
So Elijah was taken into Heaven, came back down to talk to Jesus on Earth, then went back up.

Hebrews 11
Revelation 11

It's just absolutely silly to take 1 out of context verse and have it declare all previous and subsequent mentions of people going up to heaven as being false or having to be handwaved away.

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What I think is silly, is to dismiss John 3:13 as 'out of context'; which it isn't, but your failure to see the many other verses that support the truth that people never go to live in heaven.
Jesus said:

1/ John 3:13 No one has gone up into heaven, except the One who came down from heaven, the Son of Man.
Jesus is talking about the things of heaven, truths that apply forever.

2/ Revelation 2-3 Those who are victorious over Satan and who persevere until the end, will receive the crown of Life.
They are the people seen in Revelation 6:9-14. On earth, as proved by the first 3 verses of Revelation 7.

3/ John 7:33-34…I am going away to Him who sent Me and where I go, you cannot come.
A plain statement that also applies forever.


4/ John 8:21-23 Again He said: Where I go, you cannot come. You belong to this world below, I to the world above….
Our home is the earth, we are earth people and not spirits and even after the Millennium, those worthy will become immortal, but will still remain on earth.
Revelation 21:1-4

5/ John 17:15 I do not pray that You take My people out of this world, but to keep them from the evil one.
Jesus was talking to God and what He asked applies to all Christians. Remember: we pray for God’s Kingdom to come on earth as it is in heaven and it will, with the New Jerusalem.


6/ Revelation 5:10 You have made them priests for our God and they shall reign on earth.
This refers to every faithful Christian, people from every tribe, race, nation and language, they shall reign on earth. That is our destiny, we never go to heaven, only our souls sleep under the Altar, if we are martyred. Revelation 6:9-11
That they can cry out at times, does not mean they are alive.

All scripture is as Written in the Revised English Bible.

and yet, Enoch, Elijah, the 2 witnesses, and a great multitude of people beyond counting are taken up to heaven.

Paul and John both were also caught up.

Jamdoc said:

and yet, Enoch, Elijah, the 2 witnesses, and a great multitude of people beyond counting are taken up to heaven.

Paul and John both were also caught up.

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We are not told that any of them actually lived in heaven.

We are made to inhabit the earth, it is our home. God has angels to serve Him in heaven.
Eventually God and therefore heaven, will come to the earth and will dwell with mankind. Revelation 21:1-7

keras said:

We are not told that any of them actually lived in heaven.

We are made to inhabit the earth, it is our home. God has angels to serve Him in heaven.
Eventually God and therefore heaven, will come to the earth and will dwell with mankind. Revelation 21:1-7

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I just quoted 2 Kings 2 where Elijah was taken up to heaven, Matthew 17 where Elijah and Moses stood next to Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration and then disappeared, and Revelation 11 where after being killed the 2 witnesses were caught up to heaven in a cloud.

We were also made to be immortal
and we die
It wasn't God's intention that we die and our souls separate from our bodies, or go to Heaven, but that is the current reality until God makes things new.
It's unintended, it's unideal, but everything about the fall was unintended and unideal.

But in the meantime it provides a place of rest and refuge until God's plans are all carried out.

Jamdoc said:

But in the meantime it provides a place of rest and refuge until God's plans are all carried out.

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Happy to just ignore the six plain statements of Jesus; that say we cannot go to live in heaven?

Get this truth: The dead know nothing, they 'sleep in the dust', until the GWT Judgment. Rev 20:11-15

keras said:

Happy to just ignore the six plain statements of Jesus; the we cannot go to live in heaven?

Get this truth: The dead know nothing, they 'sleep in the dust', until the GWT Judgment. Rev 20:11-15

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Luke 23:43
2 Corinthians 5:8
Revelation 6:9-11

Jamdoc said:

Luke 23:43
2 Corinthians 5:8
Revelation 6:9-11

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I checked those 3 verses, none of them say, or even infer that there will be a general removal of Christians to heaven.
Rev 6:9-11 refers to all the Christian martyrs since Stephen. Their souls 'sleep' under the altar in heaven. How that proves your point, I can't imagine.

Spiritual Jew said:

How exactly does this answer my question about why we would meet Him in the air first if we're then immediately taken to heaven?

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Jesus personally is coming to receive us, who believe in him, take Him at His Word, to Himself. Because that is what He said He would do. Why are you questioning it?

The raptured/resurrected Christians meet Jesus in the air - because the rapture/resurrection event does not take place at the Second Coming when Jesus is returning to this earth, not air, when He will stand here on earth on the Mt of Olives.

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

keras said:

We are not told that any of them actually lived in heaven.

We are made to inhabit the earth, it is our home. God has angels to serve Him in heaven.
Eventually God and therefore heaven, will come to the earth and will dwell with mankind. Revelation 21:1-7

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keras, read Revelation 15. It is about the overcomers, who are the martyrs. The scene is taking place in heaven, verse 1.

Douggg said:

keras, read Revelation 15. It is about the overcomers, who are the martyrs. The scene is taking place in heaven, verse 1.

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I know Rev 15:1-4 very well. It says the martyrs killed by the 'beast', are in heaven - their souls are kept under the Altar and God allows them to speak out at times. Revelation 6:9-11
When Jesus Returns, He will resurrect them, Revelation 20:4 and they will go into the Millennium as His priests and co rulers.

Do you think this proves a general 'rapture to heaven' for all Christians? In no way does it; the rapture is a lie and will never happen.

keras said:

I know Rev 15:1-4 very well. It says the martyrs killed by the 'beast', are in heaven - their souls are kept under the Altar and God allows them to speak out at times. Revelation 6:9-11
When Jesus Returns, He will resurrect them, Revelation 20:4 and they will go into the Millennium as His priests and co rulers.

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Yes, and they are Christians in heaven. I have never seen a soul, have you ?

But John saw souls, which imo likely appear ghost like, having a form, but perhaps not solid like our current bodies. It is just my guess.

keras said:

Do you think this proves a general 'rapture to heaven' for all Christians? In no way does it; the rapture is a lie and will never happen.

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No, but it does show that men can go to heaven, if they are saved.

And of course, where do you think you will be in the interim - between this present earth is completely destroyed, and the works therein - and the new heaven and new earth in Revelation 21 ?

Present earth destroyed - Revelation 20:11.

Then the Great White Throne Judgment.

Then the new heaven and new earth and new Jerusalem

keras said:

I checked those 3 verses, none of them say, or even infer that there will be a general removal of Christians to heaven.
Rev 6:9-11 refers to all the Christian martyrs since Stephen. Their souls 'sleep' under the altar in heaven. How that proves your point, I can't imagine.

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The thief on the cross, was promised that He'd be with Jesus in paradise, that same day. Not thousands of years from then.
Paul was saying that being absent from the body is being present with the Lord. Where's the Lord? Heaven. Another passage has Paul wanting to "depart" and be "with Christ, which is far better". Again, where is Christ now? Heaven.

and the Revelation passage has conscious souls in heaven.

all of that refutes your doctrine of soul sleep, and your doctrine that we don't go to heaven.