Poll: Is the Great Tribulation a part of the “Day of the Lord”?

DavidPT · Jul 25, 2022

claninja said:
yes it is:

luke 21:23 23How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! For there will be great distress upon the land and wrath against this people.

Matthew 24:19-21 How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again.

Except I don't take Luke 21:23 to be meaning the great trib recorded in Matthew 24:21. According to Daniel 12, a resurrection of the dead follows the great tribulation recorded in Matthew 24:21. No resurrection of the dead followed what happened in 70 AD nor does Luke 21 ever use the Greek word thlipsis to describe any of those things.

According to my Strong's thlipsis is not found anywhere in Luke 21.

keras · Jul 25, 2022

DavidPT said:
the NT only knows of one day of the Lord event happening in the last days, and that that event is yet to happen. It comes as a thief in the night, and it comes after the trib of the days, the trib of those days meaning Matthew 24:21 and Daniel 12:1, for one.

This is not correct, Jesus does NOT Return as a thief; that idea is actually disgusting and is shown to be wrong by 1 Thess 4:16 & Revelation 1:7

It is evident that there are two separate ‘Days of the Lord’ in which the Lord acts to punish His enemies. The Sixth Seal, the Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, is the next prophesied event that we can expect, of a worldwide judgement/punishment by fire from the sun, which will clear and cleanse the holy Land. Most clearly described in Isaiah 30:25-30, Isaiah 63:1-6 and Habakkuk 3:12 ‘Furiously You traverse the earth, in anger You trample down the nations.’
But the Lord is not seen on that Day: Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 18:11

Then, years later, at the Return of Jesus, is the Sixth and Seventh Bowl fulfilment, Revelation 16:17-24...the great Day of the Sovereign Lord, when He destroys the armies of the Anti Christ and chains Satan up. Revelation 19:19-21, Zechariah 14:3-5

rwb said:
With this understanding of the Day of the Lord there is no difficulty in understanding how Joel's prophesy that Luke tells us is fulfilled at Pentecost will not be completely fulfilled until Christ comes again on the last day. So, for those who are not looking for His coming again, it will indeed be as a thief in the night.

Do you even realize how convoluted and at odds with scriptural truths, your post #75 is?

The fulfilment of Joels prophecy about the Spirit coming down onto the Lord's people, must be before Jesus Returns.
Proved by; Joel 2:28-29 Afterward.....
After what Joel 2:1-27 and Joel 2:31-32 tells us must happen first. Revelation 7:1-14 shows the Lord's faithful peoples in the holy Land, praising God and being blessed by Him.

claninja · Jul 25, 2022

DavidPT said:
Except I don't take Luke 21:23 to be meaning the great trib recorded in Matthew 24:21. According to Daniel 12, a resurrection of the dead follows the great tribulation recorded in Matthew 24:21. No resurrection of the dead followed what happened in 70 AD nor does Luke 21 ever use the Greek word thlipsis to describe any of those things.

According to my Strong's thlipsis is not found anywhere in Luke 21.

if your argument is that the great tribulation and the great distress are different events simply because thlipsis is not in Luke, then one can simply argue that the OD of Luke and Matthew are a completely different events than Daniel 12, as the Greek word for resurrection is not found in Luke 21 or Matthew 24.

and that’s not really a sound argument. Just because Luke calls it the “great distress” doesn’t mean it’s not the same event. People can use different words to describe the same event. It happens all the time.

And now that I’m thinking of it, why doesn’t Paul mention the great tribulation nor signs in the heavens as occuring “immediately” prior to the day of the Lord?

DavidPT · Jul 25, 2022

rwb said:
I don't see these problems you are alluding to David. What you believe and what I believe is really not relevant. What is relevant is what can be proven through the Word of God. Having studied both the doctrine of Premill and Amill, I find the only doctrine that can be reconciled with all of Scripture is Amillennialism, and for that reason I walked away from Premill and fully embrace the doctrine of Amill.

What about all the Amills that disagree with you that the day of the Lord parallels the thousand years? Why would they disagree with you if you are correct about that? They don't disagree with you that the thousand years parallel the NT church age. Which means they apparently agree with you about that. How can other Amills disagreeing with you in regards to this possibly have anything to do with Amill vs Premill?

keras · Jul 25, 2022

DavidPT said:
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Revelation 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Are you also going to argue that what I have underlined, these aren't the same events either? As if stars of heaven falling, whatever that might look like, that that happens more than one time in the end of this age and at different times.

Yes I am. They are different events, as their context shows.
We have meteor showers often, they are common events.

The idea that Jesus comes in fire is debunked by prophesies like Revelation 19:11-21, 1 Thess 4:16
He Returns in glory and everyone will see Him.
Whereas at the Sixth Seal, He SENDS fire and no one will see Him. Amos 1, Psalms 11:4-6

rwb · Jul 25, 2022

DavidPT said:
What about all the Amills that disagree with you that the day of the Lord parallels the thousand years? Why would they disagree with you if you are correct about that? They don't disagree with you that the thousand years parallel the NT church age. Which means they apparently agree with you about that. How can other Amills disagreeing with you in regards to this possibly have anything to do with Amill vs Premill?

If you understand Amill and are a proponent, then you understand the thousand years symbolize time that began with the first advent of Christ and will end when the seventh trumpet begins to sound the return of Christ coming the second time. By default, it is necessary to believe the Day of the Lord's coming was fulfilled when Christ came, which is the same time for fulfillment of the symbolic thousand years. Therefore, if one does not believe (1) the advent of Christ's coming the prophets prophesied would come is fulfilled with the first advent of Christ (2) the thousand symbolic years also began with the advent of Christ....then I don't know how one could believe in Amill.

Spiritual Jew · Jul 25, 2022

DavidPT said:
Except I don't take Luke 21:23 to be meaning the great trib recorded in Matthew 24:21. According to Daniel 12, a resurrection of the dead follows the great tribulation recorded in Matthew 24:21. No resurrection of the dead followed what happened in 70 AD nor does Luke 21 ever use the Greek word thlipsis to describe any of those things.

According to my Strong's thlipsis is not found anywhere in Luke 21.

David, you agree that Luke 21:20-24 is part of the Olivet Discourse, right? But, you disagree that it's a record of the same event as recorded in Matthew 24:15-22 and Mark 13:14-20.

Can you tell me when you think Jesus said what is recorded in Luke 21:20-24 in relation to what He said in Matthew 24:15-22? Which of those do you think He said first? How long after that do you think He said what is recorded in the other passage?

Here are the passages in question (I'm trying to keep it simple here by not including Mark 13:14-20 which is very similar to Matthew 24:15-22):

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

In each passage I bolded and color coded the parts that are the same or similar in each passage. You believe that Jesus said those things twice during the Olivet Discourse, such as "Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains", "woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!" and there "shall be great distress/tribulation". Don't you think that would've been confusing to those He was speaking to at the time? Wouldn't they have thought "Wait, didn't you already tell us about this?" the second time He said those in Judea should flee to the mountains and the second time He said "woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days"? What is your explanation for this?

DavidPT · Jul 25, 2022

claninja said:
if your argument is that the great tribulation and the great distress are different events simply because thlipsis is not in Luke, then one can simply argue that the OD of Luke and Matthew are a completely different events than Daniel 12, as the Greek word for resurrection is not found in Luke 21 or Matthew 24.

and that’s not really a sound argument. Just because Luke calls it the “great distress” doesn’t mean it’s not the same event. People can use different words to describe the same event. It happens all the time.

Actually, I wouldn't have a problem with anyone arguing that what is recorded in Luke 21, this is not the events Daniel 12 records, since I would fully agree with that. But as to Matthew 24 though, that's a different story. There is no gap of thousand of years after the events of the great trib recorded in verse 21 and that of the coming recorded in verse 30, unlike in Luke 21 where there is a gap of thousands of years after the events recorded in verse 20 and that of the coming recorded in verse 27.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Verse 30 records a coming and verse 31 records a gathering, which BTW, agrees with what is recorded in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 since it also records a coming and a gathering, the gathering actually involving a resurrection of the dead. Even though Matthew 24 doesn't mention a resurrection of the dead by coming out and calling it that, it still seems pretty apparent a resurrection of the dead is meant in verse 31 since verse 30 and 31 agree with what is recorded in Thessalonians 4:13-17. Therefore, aligning perfectly with what is recorded in Daniel 12, since that chapter also has a time of trouble during an AOD, just like Matthew 24 does, except Daniel 12 reveals a resurrection follows it.

claninja said:
And now that I’m thinking of it, why doesn’t Paul mention the great tribulation nor signs in the heavens as occuring “immediately” prior to the day of the Lord?

Maybe he didn't need to if someone else already did it for him, meaning Jesus?

Spiritual Jew · Jul 25, 2022

claninja said:
if your argument is that the great tribulation and the great distress are different events simply because thlipsis is not in Luke, then one can simply argue that the OD of Luke and Matthew are a completely different events than Daniel 12, as the Greek word for resurrection is not found in Luke 21 or Matthew 24.

and that’s not really a sound argument. Just because Luke calls it the “great distress” doesn’t mean it’s not the same event. People can use different words to describe the same event. It happens all the time.

I agree. I see no basis for thinking "great distress" and "great tribulation" are different events just because different words are used. Obviously, distress and tribulation can refer to the same thing.

And now that I’m thinking of it, why doesn’t Paul mention the great tribulation nor signs in the heavens as occuring “immediately” prior to the day of the Lord?

Click to expand...

Because the day of the Lord is a future event and the great tribulation is a past event.

Spiritual Jew · Jul 25, 2022

DavidPT said:
Maybe he didn't need to if someone else already did it for him, meaning Jesus?

Jesus already talked about His return, too, but Paul still wrote about it.

DavidPT · Jul 25, 2022

Spiritual Jew said:
Jesus already talked about His return, too, but Paul still wrote about it.

My point mainly had to do with details. Why would Paul need to mention every single detail Jesus already brought to light?

Spiritual Jew · Jul 25, 2022

DavidPT said:
My point mainly had to do with details. Why would Paul need to mention every single detail Jesus already brought to light?

Paul gave quite a few details regarding things related to Christ's return, so if what Jesus described in Matthew 24:15-22 was supposed to happen just before His return, it's rather strange that Paul would not have said anything about it.

DavidPT · Jul 25, 2022

keras said:
Yes I am. They are different events, as their context shows.
We have meteor showers often, they are common events.

The idea that Jesus comes in fire is debunked by prophesies like Revelation 19:11-21, 1 Thess 4:16
He Returns in glory and everyone will see Him.
Whereas at the Sixth Seal, He SENDS fire and no one will see Him. Amos 1, Psalms 11:4-6

Jesus revealed what He did, first. Then John later revealed what he revealed. Why would Jesus mention stars falling from heaven that John in the book of Revelation ends up knowing zero about even though he too revealed stars fall from heaven?

Since Jesus was a prophet, plus He is God, He obviously already knew John would be shown visions in the future and that he would write what he saw in a book. Maybe Jesus should have said in Matthew 24:29, don't confuse these stars falling from heaven with the stars falling from heaven John will later confirm via his visions. I'm not meaning those falling stars, those are different falling stars. If you don't believe Me, just ask a forum poster by the name of Keras in the far future, like in 2022, and he will confirm I wasn't meaning the same falling stars John is meaning in his book. After all, he will have a better grasp on what I meant than I do.

keras · Jul 25, 2022

DavidPT said:
Jesus revealed what He did, first. Then John later revealed what he revealed. Why would Jesus mention stars falling from heaven that John in the book of Revelation ends up knowing zero about even though he too revealed stars fall from heaven?

Since Jesus was a prophet, plus He is God, He obviously already knew John would be shown visions in the future and that he would write what he saw in a book. Maybe Jesus should have said in Matthew 24:29, don't confuse these stars falling from heaven with the stars falling from heaven John will later confirm via his visions. I'm not meaning those falling stars, those are different falling stars. If you don't believe Me, just ask a forum poster by the name of Keras in the far future, like in 2022, and he will confirm I wasn't meaning the same falling stars John is meaning in his book. After all, he will have a better grasp on what I meant than I do.

You fail to address the proofs I presented; that the Day of the Lord's wrath is a separate day from the Return.

Regarding the falling 'stars', I believe the ones at the Sixth Seal will be our satellites pushed back to earth by the mass ejected from the sun, as proved by Isaiah 30:26, Joel 1:15-20, +

claninja · Jul 26, 2022

Spiritual Jew said:
I agree. I see no basis for thinking "great distress" and "great tribulation" are different events just because different words are used. Obviously, distress and tribulation can refer to the same thing.

absolutely

Spiritual Jew said:
Because the day of the Lord is a future event and the great tribulation is a past event.

I would disagree because Jesus gives the SAME warning for BOTH the revealing of the son of man AND the great tribulation. Thus by comparing scripture to scripture we can see the revealing of the son of man and the great tribulation are related events.

Luke 17:30-31 It will be just like that on the day the Son of Man is revealed. On that day, let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve his possessions. Likewise, let no one in the field return for anything he has left behind.

Matthew 24:15-19 So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’adescribed by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. And let no one in the field return for his cloak. How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers!

BUT, I think we can both agree that it is interesting that the great tribulation is not mentioned by Paul as an event occurring “immediately” prior to the day of the Lord.

paul instead declares the “falling away” and the “revealing of the man of sin” occur prior to the day of the Lord. So this would seemingly point to the great tribulation not being immediately before the day of the Lord (your position) OR the great tribulation/revealing of the son of man is a part/related to of the day of the Lord (my position)

claninja · Jul 26, 2022

Spiritual Jew said:
David, you agree that Luke 21:20-24 is part of the Olivet Discourse, right? But, you disagree that it's a record of the same event as recorded in Matthew 24:15-22 and Mark 13:14-20.

Can you tell me when you think Jesus said what is recorded in Luke 21:20-24 in relation to what He said in Matthew 24:15-22? Which of those do you think He said first? How long after that do you think He said what is recorded in the other passage?

Here are the passages in question (I'm trying to keep it simple here by not including Mark 13:14-20 which is very similar to Matthew 24:15-22):

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

In each passage I bolded and color coded the parts that are the same or similar in each passage. You believe that Jesus said those things twice during the Olivet Discourse, such as "Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains", "woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!" and there "shall be great distress/tribulation". Don't you think that would've been confusing to those He was speaking to at the time? Wouldn't they have thought "Wait, didn't you already tell us about this?" the second time He said those in Judea should flee to the mountains and the second time He said "woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days"? What is your explanation for this?

while we don’t always agree. I do love a good scripture comparing scripture post. Well done

claninja · Jul 26, 2022

DavidPT said:
Maybe he didn't need to if someone else already did it for him, meaning Jesus?

if he didn’t need to, then What was the point of him explaining anything?

claninja · Jul 26, 2022

DavidPT said:
Actually, I wouldn't have a problem with anyone arguing that what is recorded in Luke 21, this is not the events Daniel 12 records, since I would fully agree with that. But as to Matthew 24 though, that's a different story. There is no gap of thousand of years after the events of the great trib recorded in verse 21 and that of the coming recorded in verse 30, unlike in Luke 21 where there is a gap of thousands of years after the events recorded in verse 20 and that of the coming recorded in verse 27.

your argument is that because thlipsis is not in Luke, then Matthew’s OD is not the same event.

by that very argument, i can claim matthews OD is not the same event as Daniel 12 because the Greek word for resurrection is not found in Matthew 24.

I’m not following you, as this is not really a logical argument.

DavidPT · Jul 26, 2022

claninja said:
if he didn’t need to, then What was the point of him explaining anything?

He just didn't need to re explain every single detail Jesus already brought up. He can still bring the subject up, and did, without having to mention every single thing Jesus already did. If writers in the NT did that on a regular basis, the next thing you know, the NT might end up as lengthy as the OT. This is yet another reason why I feel writers in the NT didn't mention or go into details involving particular events, since these details are already in the Bible, in the OT in this case.
It is then up to us to connect the dots.

claninja · Jul 26, 2022

DavidPT said:
He just didn't need to re explain every single detail Jesus already brought up. He can still bring the subject up, and did, without having to mention every single thing Jesus already did. If writers in the NT did that on a regular basis, the next thing you know, the NT might end up as lengthy as the OT. This is yet another reason why I feel writers in the NT didn't mention or go into details involving particular events, since these details are already in the Bible, in the OT in this case.
It is then up to us to connect the dots.

So where does Jesus mention the falling away and man of sin in the OD? The Falling away looks like it’s mentioned prior to the great tribulation in Matthew. However, there is no specific mention of the man of sin. Jesus does mention false prophets/Christs prior to the great tribulation and during the great tribulation in Matthew 24. Jesus mentions false prophets prior to the great tribulation in Luke 21 and prior to the revealing of the son of man in luke 17.

Poll: Is the Great Tribulation a part of the “Day of the Lord”?

Is the great tribulation a part of the “day of the Lord”?

Yes

No

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