saved by grace or by works

Doug Brents said:

I didn’t say those actions “earn” salvation. They are not bribes or attempts at coercion toward God.

They complete our faith. And it takes the living, complete, perfect faith that is the conduit through which God’s grace reaches us.

Let me ask you a simple question: Does it require a physical action to say something with your mouth?
Of course it does. Speaking with the mouth (or hands for the mute) is a physical action.
And Rom 10:9-10 says that physical action “leads to” salvation.
That fact alone invalidates the idea that Eph 2:8-9 can be saying that there is no physical action necessary for man to receive salvation.

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Had you not added this statement you would have been more correct: That fact alone invalidates the idea that Eph 2:8-9 can be saying that there is no physical action necessary for man to receive salvation. Don't you see, good works are a result of salvation, not to receive salvation. You may just have stated it wrong, but it is wrong, faith alone produces the good works to follow or God is not working in us to fulfill his word. Those who have no good works to follow only make a profession of faith, faith is never alone, those are the ones who fall away or go to their graves not saved. That is why encouraged those in 2 Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?


If I could jump into this conversation for a moment; it is your wording/statement here that invalidates it being scripture and the meaning of Eph 2:8-9, you also say that Romans 10:9-10 prove your point, it doesn't and here is why, Romans 10:8-10 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9 that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved. This clearly says if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord" you will be saved, this demonstrates their faith, but what will have to follow are the good works that demonstrates they truly were saved by faith, which results in a changed nature and good work will follow as the evidence that the faith was real. And Eph 2:10 states that; for we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus which God before has ordained that we walk in them. And Phil 2:13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. So one can clearly see the works will follow, nevertheless, saving faith is just that, faith, believing that Jesus paid our sin debt and set us free from the dominion of the old nature and filled us with the Holy Spirit to be the transforming power to fulfill his will in us.

msortwell said:

Salvalation has ALWAYS been BY grace, THROUGH faith. Grace is God's favor (never deserved, simply bestowed). Faith is assurance (the assurance that what God declares is true, it is God-given). Specifically, God promised that He WILL, or He HAS provided a redeemer. The redeemer was to be (and now has been shown to be) the promised Seed of the Woman in Genesis 3, the Promised Seed of Abraham (Genesis, 12, 15, 17, and 22; Galatians 3), the Promised righteous Seed (son) of David (2 Sam 7), and now the very Son of God. The Mosaic covenant had its roll, but it was not salvific in any direct sense. It served PRIMARILY in preparing God's people to understand how and what the promised Seed - Messiah, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham, the Son of God would accomplish. To claim salvation was EVER by means of works is heresy, one that declares that Jesus need never have died.

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In Psalms 119:29-30, David wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him His way that he might know Him and Israel too, in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through His law, and in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Jesus, which again is salvation by grace through faith, which is also why Jesus said in Matthew 19:17 that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith, and in Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us how to do these works is itself part of the content of His gift of salvation. Furthermore, in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished on the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law (Acts 21:20), while returning to the lawlessness that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from is what would be rejected what he accomplished through the cross.

There are many verses that speak against earning our salvation as a wage, such as Romans 3:28, Romans 4:4-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Galatians 2:21, and Galatians 3:21, while there are also many verses that support that our salvation is by our works, such as Romans 2:6-7, Romans 2:13, Ephesians 2:10, Titus 2:11-14, Galatians 3:26-29, James 2:17-24, Matthew 7:21-23, and Matthew 19:17, so there must be a reason why our salvation requires us to choose to do good works other than in order to earn it as a wage, such as faith insofar as Romans 3:31 says that our faith upholds God's law. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of the Mosaic Law (1 John 3:4), so while we do not earn our salvation by obeying it, living in obedience to it is nevertheless inherently part of the concept of Jesus saving us from living in transgression of it, so the Mosaic Covenant is inherently salvific, and it is not as though the concept of salvation wasn't invented until the NT.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and God's law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so turning from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel message, which was the Gospel that was made known in advance to Abraham (Galatians 3:8), and Jesus, who is the way, was sent as the ultimate fulfillment of that promise to bless us by turning us from our wicked ways (Acts 3:25-26). The Kingdom of God is essentially where people are blessed and a blessing to others by multiplying the nature of God through teaching others to turn from their wickedness and how to walk in God's way in obedience to His law.

In Genesis 18:19, God knew Abraham that he would teach his children and those of his household to walk in God's way by doing righteousness and justice that the Lord may bring to him all that he has promised, namely in Genesis 26:4-5, God would multiply Abraham's offspring as the stars in the heavens, to his his offspring he would given all of these lands, and through his offspring all of the nations of the earth will be blessed because Abraham heard God's voice and kept His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws. In John 8:39, Jesus said that if they were Abraham's offspring, then then they would be doing the same works that he did, so what was being multiplied were people who were being taught to follow his example. In other words, all of the promises were made to Abraham and brought about because he expressed God's nature by walking in His way in obedience to His law and he taught his children of those of his household how to do that, and because his offspring did that (Deuteronomy 30:15-16). In Leviticus 18:26-28, the land would spit them out if they did not obey God's laws, so their continued presence in the land was directly connected to continuing to walk in God's way. Furthermore, God's law was how Abraham's offspring knew how to be blessed by walking in God's ways (Psalms 119:1-3), so the inheritance of the promise through faith of being a blessing to the nations comes through turning the nations from their wickedness how to live a life of blessing by teaching them how to walk in God's way in obedience to His law, which comes right back to the Gospel message.

iwbswiaihl said:

Had you not added this statement you would have been more correct: That fact alone invalidates the idea that Eph 2:8-9 can be saying that there is no physical action necessary for man to receive salvation. Don't you see, good works are a result of salvation, not to receive salvation. You may just have stated it wrong, but it is wrong, faith alone produces the good works to follow or God is not working in us to fulfill his word. Those who have no good works to follow only make a profession of faith, faith is never alone, those are the ones who fall away or go to their graves not saved. That is why encouraged those in 2 Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

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Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we do not earn our salvation by obeying it, living in obedience to it is nevertheless inherently part of the concept of Jesus saving us from living in transgression of it. In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while it denies that we can earn our salvation by our works lest anyone should boast, doing good works is nevertheless and integral part of being saving from not doing good works. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not saved as the result of having done those works and we do not do those works as the result of having been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to do them is itself the content of His gift of saving us from not doing them.

If I could jump into this conversation for a moment; it is your wording/statement here that invalidates it being scripture and the meaning of Eph 2:8-9, you also say that Romans 10:9-10 prove your point, it doesn't and here is why, Romans 10:8-10 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9 that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved. This clearly says if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord" you will be saved, this demonstrates their faith, but what will have to follow are the good works that demonstrates they truly were saved by faith, which results in a changed nature and good work will follow as the evidence that the faith was real. And Eph 2:10 states that; for we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus which God before has ordained that we walk in them. And Phil 2:13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. So one can clearly see the works will follow, nevertheless, saving faith is just that, faith, believing that Jesus paid our sin debt and set us free from the dominion of the old nature and filled us with the Holy Spirit to be the transforming power to fulfill his will in us.

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In Romans 10:5-10, it references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 in regard to saying that God's law is not too difficult to obey, that the one who obeys it will attain life by it, in regard to what we are agreeing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished on the cross.

Doug Brents said:

Absolutely. The writer's style of writing, the intended audience, the additional materials available to the intended audience (other Apostles' writing, OT Scriptures, etc.) etc. all need to be taken into account.

But even more important is the words themselves. When there is a clear, unambiguous statement ("He who believes and is baptized will be saved" as an example), it supports, modifies, and expands upon the more basic statements (like "whoever believes in Him should not perish"). Why? Because there is no contradiction in Scripture. And if there is no contradiction, then simple belief (mental assent) is not ALL that is required. The other passages that state something other than belief (Acts 2:38, Acts 3:19, Rom 10:9-10, etc.) still apply, are not to be ignored or explained away, and MUST be included in our doctrine on salvation.

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It is not so much that we to do something other than belief is required, but that the way that we choose to live is what we believe. In other words, we are God's representatives, so the way that we live expresses what we believe to be true about the nature of God is. For example, the way to believe that God is righteous is by doing what is righteous, and if someone refused to do what is righteous, then they would be expressing the belief that righteousness is not an aspect of God's nature, or in other words, they would be falsely representing the nature of God as not including righteousness. Likewise, in 1 Peter 1:16, we are told to have a holy conduct for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to do that, so if someone refused to follow those instructions, then they would be representing God as not being holy, or in other words, they would bearing false witness against God's holiness. This is why the Bible frequently connects our belief in God with our obedience to Him, or connects our unbelief with our disobedience, such as in Revelation 14:12, where those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments.

In Psalms 119:142, God's law is truth, in Psalms 119:160, the sum of God's word is truth, in John 1:14, the word of God became flesh and dwelt among us, and in John 14:6, Jesus said that he is the way, the truth, and the life, so he was claiming to be the living embodiment of God's law, which is evidenced by the fact that he lived in sinless obedience to it. In Hebrews 1:3, the Son is the exact expression of God's nature, so he is the personification of God's nature and the physical manifestation of God's law, so obedience to the law of which he is the living embodiment is the way to believe in the nature of who he is, or in other words, the way to believe in him.

msortwell said:

Phil 3:8-9
Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith.


From Jamieson, Fausset & Brown - Commentary on Phil 3:9

be found in him--"be found" at His coming again, living spiritually "in Him" as the element of my life. Once lost, I have been "found," and I hope to be perfectly "found" by Him ( Luk 15:8 ).
own righteousness. . . of the law-- ( Phl 3:6 Rom 10:3, 5 ). "Of," that is, from.
righteousness. . . of God by faith--Greek, "which is from God (resting) uponfaith." Paul was transported from legal bondage into Christian freedom at once, and without any gradual transition. Hence, the bands of Pharisaism were loosed instantaneously; and opposition to Pharisaic Judaism took the place of opposition to the Gospel. Thus God's providence fitly prepared him for the work of overthrowing all idea of legal justification. "The righteousness of faith," in Paul's sense, is the righteousness or perfect holiness of Christ appropriated by faith, as the objective ground of confidence for the believer, and also as a new subjectiveprinciple of life. Hence it includes the essence of a new disposition, and may easily pass into the idea of sanctification, though the two ideas are originally distinct. It is not any arbitrary act of God, as if he treated as sinless a man persisting in sin, simply because he believes in Christ; but the objective on the part of God corresponds to the subjective on the part of man, namely, faith. The realization of the archetype of holiness through Christ contains the pledge that this shall be realized in all who are one with Him by faith, and are become the organs of His Spirit. Its germ is imparted to them in believing although the fruit of a life perfectly conformed to the Redeemer, can only be gradually developed in this life [NEANDER].

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In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, and he walked in obedience to God's law, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so knowing Christ is the goal of the law, so we should not misinterpret Philippians 3:8-9 as speaking about transitioning from walking in obedience to God's to knowing and being in Christ. The issue was not that God gives laws that are rubbish, but that Paul had been obeying God's law, but without having a focus on knowing Christ, so he had been missing the whole goal of the law, and that is what he considered to be rubbish. Paul never stopped identifying as a Pharisee (Acts 23:6), or as a Jew (Acts 21:39, 22:3), and he never stopped obeying God's law (Acts 21:20), so he did never left Pharisaic Judaism. In Acts 15:5, it refers to believers who were among the party of the Pharisees, so there is nothing about being a believer that is incompatible with being a Pharisee. Furthermore, most of the books of the NT were written by Paul, so they were written by a Pharisee, and he instructed us to follow his example (1 Corinthians 11:1), so we are instructed to follow the example of a Pharisee. In Romans 2:13, Paul said that only doers of the law will be justified, so while he opposed earning our justification by obeying God's law (Romans 4:4-5), he did not oppose legal justification.

msortwell said:

If he were to find this out (as you call it) he would be entering into some form of hyperdispensationalism and rejecting much of what God’s would offers to his people.

“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.” ESV 3:28-29

Writing to Timothy, referring to only the OT , Paul said

2 Tim 3:16, All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

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But you have no problem believing that Luke 12:33 is not written as instructions to you, correct?

Guojing said:

So you do agree with my 2 points.

So now, following the same 2 points, what if you found out that Mark 16:16 is not written as instructions to

• You
• for this period of time?

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IF that were the case, then yes, that would make a difference. However, that is not the only passage that says salvation occurs during baptism: 1 Pet 3:21, Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-4, Gal 3:27, Eph 5:25-27, and others.

Soyeong said:

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we do not earn our salvation by obeying it, living in obedience to it is nevertheless inherently part of the concept of Jesus saving us from living in transgression of it. In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while it denies that we can earn our salvation by our works lest anyone should boast, doing good works is nevertheless and integral part of being saving from not doing good works. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not saved as the result of having done those works and we do not do those works as the result of having been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to do them is itself the content of His gift of saving us from not doing them.
In Romans 10:5-10, it references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 in regard to saying that God's law is not too difficult to obey, that the one who obeys it will attain life by it, in regard to what we are agreeing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished on the cross.

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What you are saying here is absolutely scriptural, and I did not dispute the truth. It is as I stated and see no sense in repeating it again. Good works will follow or there is no evidence of repentance.

Guojing said:

But you have no problem believing that Luke 12:33 is not written as instructions to you, correct?

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The instruction is to take from among my own possessions to give to those who have need. It is not the only instruction commanding that we live sacrificially for others.

Doug Brents said:

IF that were the case, then yes, that would make a difference. However, that is not the only passage that says salvation occurs during baptism: 1 Pet 3:21, Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-4, Gal 3:27, Eph 5:25-27, and others.

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Brother, each of the examples provided are examples of metonymy - a grammatical device wherein one expression is used for another because the two items are so intimately connected to one another. In each of these cases the sign (baptism) is being used to represent that which baptism signifies(represents) - cleansing from sin by the blood of Christ (and accompanying elements in the ordo salutis).

Was going to replied to a post and changed my mine, could find no way, again, to just delete this one. I am going to pretend that this post is just blank, would you do the same???????????????????

iwbswiaihl said:

What you are saying here is absolutely scriptural, and I did not dispute the truth. It is as I stated and see no sense in repeating it again. Good works will follow or there is no evidence of repentance.

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In Titus 2:11-14, it does not say that we will be trained to do those works after we have been saved, but rather it describes the content of our salvation as being trained grace to do those works.

Soyeong said:

In Titus 2:11-14, it does not say that we will be trained to do those works after we have been saved, but rather it describes the content of our salvation as being trained grace to do those works.

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You did not get these words from my post: In Titus 2:11-14, it does not say that we will be trained to do those works after we have been saved, but rather it describes the content of our salvation as being trained grace to do those works.You added those words, not me. But I would say that good works are produced by the Holy Spirit in the life of believers and are called the fruit of the Spirit, Gal 5:But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. It is Him working in us that produce the fruit, Eph 2:10 and Phil 2:13

msortwell said:

Brother, each of the examples provided are examples of metonymy - a grammatical device wherein one expression is used for another because the two items are so intimately connected to one another. In each of these cases the sign (baptism) is being used to represent that which baptism signifies(represents) - cleansing from sin by the blood of Christ (and accompanying elements in the ordo salutis).

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Yes, baptism and forgiveness of sin (salvation) are inextricably linked to the point that they occur at the same time (Acts 22:16).

Baptism, confession of Jesus’ name, and repentance do not FLOW OUT of salvation: they LEAD TO salvation. They are not are not “good works” nor are they “works of the Law”. They are conditions of faith through which we receive salvation.

iwbswiaihl said:

You did not get these words from my post: In Titus 2:11-14, it does not say that we will be trained to do those works after we have been saved, but rather it describes the content of our salvation as being trained grace to do those works.You added those words, not me. But I would say that good works are produced by the Holy Spirit in the life of believers and are called the fruit of the Spirit, Gal 5:But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. It is Him working in us that produce the fruit, Eph 2:10 and Phil 2:13

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You were speaking about good works following, but that is not how Titus 2:11-14 describes our salvation. If you do not think my word were in accordance with what Titus 2:11-14, then by all means please explain why. Describing our salvation as being trained by grace to do what is godly is not saying that after we have been saved, then doing what is godly will follow.

Doug Brents said:

IF that were the case, then yes, that would make a difference. However, that is not the only passage that says salvation occurs during baptism: 1 Pet 3:21, Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-4, Gal 3:27, Eph 5:25-27, and others.

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Those Pauline passages you mentioned, why do you think any of them refer to water baptism?

Do you distinguish between Holy Spirit baptism, which does not involve water, and water baptism, or are they both equivalent to you?

msortwell said:

The instruction is to take from among my own possessions to give to those who have need. It is not the only instruction commanding that we live sacrificially for others.

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But you don't sell all you have and give to the poor now, correct?

That means you are not following Luke 12:33.

Doug Brents said:

Yes, baptism and forgiveness of sin (salvation) are inextricably linked to the point that they occur at the same time (Acts 22:16).

Baptism, confession of Jesus’ name, and repentance do not FLOW OUT of salvation: they LEAD TO salvation. They are not are not “good works” nor are they “works of the Law”. They are conditions of faith through which we receive salvation.

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Which baptism is a part of the salvation process, based on what the Bible says?

What did Peter say below?


Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

Acts 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?


Based on Luke 3:16, and John 1:33, and Acts 11:15-16, the most important thing about the word "baptize" in the New Testament has nothing to do with water. The Holy Spirit is the master teacher promised to New Covenant believers in Jeremiah 31:34, and John 14:26, and is found fulfilled in Ephesians 1:13, and 1 John 2:27. Unfortunately, many modern Christians see water when they read the word "baptize" in the text. Based on the above, what is the one baptism of our faith found in the passage below? How many times is the word "Spirit" found in the passage, and how many times is the word "water" found in the passage?


Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

Eph 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;

Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,


“baptize” KJV



Mat_3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:



Mar_1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.



Luk_3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:



Joh_1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;



Joh_1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.



1Co_1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

.

Soyeong said:

You were speaking about good works following, but that is not how Titus 2:11-14 describes our salvation. If you do not think my word were in accordance with what Titus 2:11-14, then by all means please explain why. Describing our salvation as being trained by grace to do what is godly is not saying that after we have been saved, then doing what is godly will follow.

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That is exactly what that text is saying: Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 It instructs us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live sensible, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 as we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. 14He gave Himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds. This clearly says God grace that brings salvation has appeared to all men, you would surely agree that means his grace has been shown to all men, not that all men are or will be saved! Then in v12 it instructs us renounce the way natural mankind lives, in the flesh, but believers are to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh, the desire to do so come from God by the word of God being the Holy Spirit way to teach us to apply His word which is exactly what it says in Eph 2:10 for we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Phil 2:13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. And it surely does say the exact opposite of what you stated, good works will follow are the person never was saved! No fruit means their is no working of the Holy Spirit in the person's life to produce the good works. Reading these two text again that I am showing you, the saved are His workmanship created in Christ unto good works, how could this not be any clearer? Plus Phil 2:13, if there is no will to do good works He clearly is not working in the person. That is how anyone can know for sure that they are saved, because now instead of living according to the old nature they have the desire to do the will of God, just ask yourself, do I want to do His will and I am sure you will say of course, you did not originate that want to, as in Phil 2:13 His word was guiding your heart and mind to will and to do of His good pleasure. The natural man does that have this want to, they want to do whatever they please, was that not how you were before salvation and all that changes the moment a person comes to faith in the Lord. Naturally it is a growing process. We must remember John 15:1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples. This is what Paul told the Corinthians in 2 Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? 6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates. So every person that says (they or we) are in the faith and the desire is not to apply His word and will in their life is a reprobate! That is the purpose of his saying to examine yourselves whether you are in the faith, prove yourself, know you not that Jesus Christ is in you, EXCEPT you be a reprobate!

iwbswiaihl said:

That is exactly what that text is saying: Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 It instructs us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live sensible, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 as we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. 14He gave Himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds. This clearly says God grace that brings salvation has appeared to all men, you would surely agree that means his grace has been shown to all men, not that all men are or will be saved! Then in v12 it instructs us renounce the way natural mankind lives, in the flesh, but believers are to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh, the desire to do so come from God by the word of God being the Holy Spirit way to teach us to apply His word which is exactly what it says in Eph 2:10 for we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Phil 2:13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. And it surely does say the exact opposite of what you stated, good works will follow are the person never was saved! No fruit means their is no working of the Holy Spirit in the person's life to produce the good works. Reading these two text again that I am showing you, the saved are His workmanship created in Christ unto good works, how could this not be any clearer? Plus Phil 2:13, if there is no will to do good works He clearly is not working in the person.

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In Titus 2:11-14, it describes the salvation that the grace of God is bringing to us as instructing us to do what is godly and to renounce doing what is ungodly. It does not say that we are saved first and then after that we will be taught how to do that, but rather part of the content of the salvation of what the grace of God brings is teaching us to do that, so it is speaking about an aspect of our salvation that is ongoing in the present tense. Living in a way that is godly is not separated in time from saving us from living in a way that is ungodly, such as doing what is godly as the result of having been saved from doing what is ungodly, but rather every moment that we are living in a way that is godly in obedience with what God's grace is training us to do in accordance with His law is a moment that we are being saved from living in a way that is ungodly. Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's law, so living in obedience to it is inherently part of the concept of Jesus saving us from living in transgression of it.