What Is The Curse Of The Law?

Job 34:10-13

10 Far be it from God to do evil, from the Almighty to do wrong.  11 He repays a man for what he has done; he brings upon him what his conduct deserves.  12 It is unthinkable that God would do wrong, that the Almighty would pervert justice.

Job 36:10-12

10 He makes them listen to correction and commands them to repent of the evil.  11 If they obey and serve him, they will spend the rest of their days in prosperity and their years in contentment.  12 But if they do not listen, they will perish by the sword and die without knowledge.

4th April 2003 at 06:20 PM Blackhawk said this in Post #15


The stipulation on the promise that we get whatever we ask for is that we are asking in the will of God.  I do not see where the Bible is saying if we are good we get what we want from God.  Which is another way of saying what you said above.   

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Accually you got the stipulation wrong.  It is that we ask in Christ name.  Or so that Christ will be glorified.

And I never mentioned being good.  I said in Christ.  So you didn't get what I said right.  Being good has nothing to do with it, that is just as worthless as being evil.  It is vanity.  I said, as long as you are in Christ.

John 15:7

7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you.

Several things to note here.  Faith is not mentioned.  Goodness is not mentioned.  God's will is not mentioned.  Sin is not mentioned.

I think we should be asking ourselves, what does He mean when He says to remain in Him?

Today at 02:34 AM Andrew said this in Post #20



I've discussed what the sufferings of a Christian are here if you are interested:

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/37085.html

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Not really.  That is an old discussion and this is a new one.

Today at 02:35 AM SnuP said this in Post #21

Job 34:10-13

10 Far be it from God to do evil, from the Almighty to do wrong.  11 He repays a man for what he has done; he brings upon him what his conduct deserves.  12 It is unthinkable that God would do wrong, that the Almighty would pervert justice.

Job 36:10-12

10 He makes them listen to correction and commands them to repent of the evil.  11 If they obey and serve him, they will spend the rest of their days in prosperity and their years in contentment.  12 But if they do not listen, they will perish by the sword and die without knowledge.

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I do not understand these quotes because all they do is prove my point.  God brought evil upon job's life to bring him closer to him.  But although Job was not perfect it was not because he was a sinful man compared to other men that God allowed evil to come into his life. 

Today at 03:14 AM SnuP said this in Post #22

Accually you got the stipulation wrong.  It is that we ask in Christ name.  Or so that Christ will be glorified.

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Which is the will of God.  God's ultimate will is that his name be glorified. 

And I never mentioned being good.  I said in Christ.  So you didn't get what I said right.  Being good has nothing to do with it, that is just as worthless as being evil.  It is vanity.  I said, as long as you are in Christ. 

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John 15:7

7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you.

Several things to note here.  Faith is not mentioned.  Goodness is not mentioned.  God's will is not mentioned.  Sin is not mentioned.

I think we should be asking ourselves, what does He mean when He says to remain in Him?

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ACtually it is all mentioned by the statement Abiding in Christ.  If you abide in Christ then you ask what is in the will of God.  If you abide in Christ then you do what he says.  Let's look at more verses in the same chapter to get a clearer view of what is being said.


John 15:1-14
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every {branch} that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3 "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither {can} you unless you abide in Me.
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
7 "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
8 "My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and {so} prove to be My disciples.
9 "Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.
10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
11 "These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and {that} your joy may be made full.
12 "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.
13 "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.
14 "You are My friends if you do what I command you.
(NAU)

So if you do God's will then you will abide in Him and ask what is in his will.  Then you get what you ask for not just whatever you ask for.  What you ask for has to be in God's will and you will ask what is in God's will when you abide in Him. 

Also if you look at verse 7 it says that "My words abide in you" so that means that you are doing and asking in God's will.  It is not jsut that you know the words but you are doing the words also.

Yesterday at 09:50 PM Blackhawk said this in Post #25

Which is the will of God.  God's ultimate will is that his name be glorified. 

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No his ultimate will is to be intimately involved in a love relationship with His creation.  Glorifying His name serves to get the minds of His creation off of themselves.

ACtually it is all mentioned by the statement Abiding in Christ.  If you abide in Christ then you ask what is in the will of God.  If you abide in Christ then you do what he says.  Let's look at more verses in the same chapter to get a clearer view of what is being said.


John 15:1-14
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every {branch} that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3 "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither {can} you unless you abide in Me.
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
7 "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
8 "My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and {so} prove to be My disciples.
9 "Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.
10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
11 "These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and {that} your joy may be made full.
12 "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.
13 "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.
14 "You are My friends if you do what I command you.
(NAU)

So if you do God's will then you will abide in Him and ask what is in his will.  Then you get what you ask for not just whatever you ask for.  What you ask for has to be in God's will and you will ask what is in God's will when you abide in Him. 

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Again, God's will is never mentioned, nor are we told to ask it.  If you have to ask God's will then you are not in Christ.  To be "in Christ" means to exist within God's realm.

7 "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

Then you get what you ask for not just whatever you ask for.

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You are not in agreement with scripture.  And the reason is that you are trying to insert "God's will" into the scripture.  If you relegate this scripture to "God's will" that you place it under the law.  This scripture belongs under grace because it is really about relationship.  Because I have an intimate relationship with my wife, she can ask whatever she wants even if I'm not in perfect agreement, and I'll do it.  If all that she does is try to do my perfect will then I don't have a real relationship, and I won't give what she wants.  To be in Christ means to live in His realm, to be a part of His reality, to interact with Him.  It does not mean constantly trying to figure out His will.

Yesterday at 08:35 PM Blackhawk said this in Post #21

Job 34:10-13

10 Far be it from God to do evil, from the Almighty to do wrong.  11 He repays a man for what he has done; he brings upon him what his conduct deserves.  12 It is unthinkable that God would do wrong, that the Almighty would pervert justice.

Job 36:10-12

10 He makes them listen to correction and commands them to repent of the evil.  11 If they obey and serve him, they will spend the rest of their days in prosperity and their years in contentment.  12 But if they do not listen, they will perish by the sword and die without knowledge.

Click to expand...

I do not understand these quotes because all they do is prove my point.  God brought evil upon job's life to bring him closer to him.  But although Job was not perfect it was not because he was a sinful man compared to other men that God allowed evil to come into his life. 

Click to expand...

These scriptures absolutely contradict your point.

You said,"God brought evil upon job's life to bring him closer to him."

But the scripture says.10 Far be it from God to do evil, from the Almighty to do wrong.  11 He repays a man for what he has done; he brings upon him what his conduct deserves.

The scripture says that Job deserved what He got, and it also says that God does not bring evil.  It also says that if Job didn't deserve what God allowed than that means that God has perverted justice.  Try rereading it.


Did you notice this scripture?  11 If they obey and serve him, they will spend the rest of their days in prosperity.

As I read the posts, I am struck by the fact that some do not know what the will of God is, and claim that nobody else can either. Therefore when we pray we have no idea what we are to expect. We may pray that we be healed, and the God may say no(???)... and this because it is the will of God for men to stay sick... as if this is their "lot in life".
I really do not see how this is even Christian-theisim. It sounds more like the Roman/Greek gods of old. (I did a study of these old religions a few years ago, and it is scary how many of these teachings found their way into Christianity!!)
Part of what makes Christianty what it is, is that we can know what the will of God is, and we can proclaim it to all men. The whole point is this: we can only have faith in God if we know His will regarding our lives. This will is the same for all, and God does not vary in His will from person to person. If you do not hold this to be true, then you can never have faith in God for anything. Everything for you is still up in the air... You cannot join with us in proclaiming that "God is, and he is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him". You are thinking that He is _not_ a rewarder.... and in fact in some cases, you are saying that he is a out and out _refuser_ of those who diligently seek Him.
How can you have faith for anything when you think that everything is still up in the air? You seem to have the position that everything is subject to the immediate and individual will of God and that His will for some (when it comes to the blessings of God and the work of the gospel) is different than for others.
If I understand you correctly, this even reaches down to saving grace itself. God is so sovereign that He does not have to save anyone... He can just change His mind and not honor His word and the work of Jesus on the cross. He can toss out His own promises and His word. If it is His "plan" for you, then you are going to hell forever, regardless of your faith in Jesus.
That is more than scary! Please tell me this is not what we are seeing here!

Today at 09:55 AM Andrew said this in Post #26



but the truths are the same.

Christians can expect to suffer persecution for being good Christians. That is Biblical suffering as spoken of by Peter and Paul. But Christians shld not expect to suffer sickness, lack, accidents and premature deaths like that's supposed to be God's doing and God's 'good' plans. The latter type of sufferings of cse still happens, that's where WOF comes in to deal with these things so that the Christian can walk victorious in Christ. 

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But still I have not seen that this has been shown through scripture. 

That said, the devil can throw lemons and eggs at you but God can always turn them into omelette and lemonade for you but that doesnt mean we start saying God threw the lemons and eggs at us in the first place. That is blasphemous.

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First I said that God allows things to come into our lives to get us closer to him.  He allows things to happen to us to bring us closer to him not that he causes things directly.  Also Satan does not cause tornados or earthquakes or anything like that.  God does and it is fine because of sin.  Also like you said everything works out for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose.   

do you have scripture for this?

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Here is just some but the whole Bible is about giving praise to God and getting us to do it. 


Matt 22:36-37
36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
37 And He said to him, "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
(NAU)

What is the greatest commandment of the law?  To love and give honor and praise to God.  So the OT is all about giving praise to God.

Deut 5:7-11
7 "You shall have no other gods before Me.
8 "You shall not make for yourself an idol, {or} any likeness {of} what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
9 "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth {generations} of those who hate Me,
10 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
11 "You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain.
(NAU)

The first of the ten commandments are about God and his name and that his name should be praise and honored.  That he should be worshipped only.

Phil 2:8-11
8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
(NAU)


John 11:4
4 But when Jesus heard {this}  He said, "This sickness is not to end in death, but for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified by it."
(NAU)

man was sick so that God would get glory. 

1 Cor 10:31
31 Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.
(NAU)

We should do all things for his glory.

2 Cor 1:20
20 For as many as are the promises of God, in Him they are yes; therefore also through Him is our Amen to the glory of God through us.
(NAU)

WE have promises from God so that he can get glory.

2 Cor 4:15
15 For all things {are} for your sakes, so that the grace which is spreading to more and more people may cause the giving of thanks to abound to the glory of God.
(NAU)

All things are for our sakes so that we can give glory to God. 

Today at 10:03 AM Andrew said this in Post #27



so what if I find out that it is one of God's will as revealed in his Word that I prosper and be in health even as my soul prospers? and then I ask according to these scripture words abiding in my heart? Is that wrong?

It is only wrong if you can prove that prospering and being in health is not God's will becos it is not stated in his Word. But it is.

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First you must prove that God promises that everyone be materially blessed and have good health in this world I see the Bible itself contradicting.  the blind man in John 9 contradicts what you are saying.  Also Paul does.  The point is that you have not proven your case.  I t is not fair to ask me to prove a negative if you have not shown your positive statement to be true.

Galatians 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Today at 04:21 PM SnuP said this in Post #28

No his ultimate will is to be intimately involved in a love relationship with His creation.  Glorifying His name serves to get the minds of His creation off of themselves.

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No you have it backwards.  If this was true then why in heaven are all the angels saying "glory to God in the highest..."  Also why would if we stop praising all the orcks would cry out his praise?  It is not about us.  It is about God.    

Again, God's will is never mentioned, nor are we told to ask it.  If you have to ask God's will then you are not in Christ.  To be "in Christ" means to exist within God's realm.

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What does "to exist in God's realm" mean?  You have to know god's will to abide in it which the scripture says you must when it says that you must abide in his word. 

You are not in agreement with scripture.  And the reason is that you are trying to insert "God's will" into the scripture.  If you relegate this scripture to "God's will" that you place it under the law.  This scripture belongs under grace because it is really about relationship.  Because I have an intimate relationship with my wife, she can ask whatever she wants even if I'm not in perfect agreement, and I'll do it.  If all that she does is try to do my perfect will then I don't have a real relationship, and I won't give what she wants.  To be in Christ means to live in His realm, to be a part of His reality, to interact with Him.  It does not mean constantly trying to figure out His will.

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First it was always about relationship a DAvid and Abraham both prove.  Second realtionship invlolves loving God.


Matt 22:37
37 And He said to him, "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
(NAU)

Buit how do we love God? by obedience. 


John 14:15
15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
(NAU)

and to obey you must know his will.  to abide in him and his word you must know his will.  Sorry there is no getting around knowing his will. 



 

Today at 04:30 PM SnuP said this in Post #29

These scriptures absolutely contradict your point.

You said,"God brought evil upon job's life to bring him closer to him." [/color] [/B]

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And how is this so when if we love him more we become closer to him.  when we sin less we become closer to him.  When we obey him we become closer to him.  However the point of this passage is to show that God could allow evil in one's life because all have sinned.  Not that Job ahd a praticular sin that made this occur or that he lacked faith. 

But the scripture says.10 Far be it from God to do evil, from the Almighty to do wrong.  11 He repays a man for what he has done; he brings upon him what his conduct deserves.

The scripture says that Job deserved what He got, and it also says that God does not bring evil.  It also says that if Job didn't deserve what God allowed than that means that God has perverted justice.  Try rereading it.

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The problem is we all deserve it.  I never siad we did not.  What I said was that Job did not deserve it more than other men.  that he haad no praicular sins that made God do it to him and not another. 

Did you notice this scripture?  11 If they obey and serve him, they will spend the rest of their days in prosperity.

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Yes.  Where does this say that we will be rich in this world?  Also where does it say that it material blessings that the author is speaking about?  The problem with you just taking this scripture is tht others contradict it if not taken in the light that material circumstances do not make one prosper or not prosper. 

John the Baptist, Paul, and Jesus are a few who would contradict this passage if we take it the way you state.  None of these were materially blessed.  Paul was but he was before his conversion.  After it he had to receive gifts from churches he had visited. i.e. The church at Philadelphia. Phil 4.   

"I am not really looking for a debate on this... it is just an observation that I have personally found to be true. I am fully aware of most of the dangers of this practice and the arguments one might throw up against it...
In the end, we are each accountable to God for the truth He has shown to us."

1. did that myself
2. found different results then you
3. helps to look at the context in which it was quoted
4. you and I dont' have all the info they did
5. thus I think we should NOT proof text because of the above and several other points.
6. There was one church and they were accountable to each other.
7. Now people just go off and start cults.