America rebelled against a Christian King

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Happy Cat
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What? Up to that point, Christianity had suffered immense persecution from several emperors, yet it had grown to be accepted by a quarter of the Roman population. One Roman governor compared Christianity to a plague that could not be irradicated.

We see that happening even today. The Church in North Korea is tenfold larger now than it was in the 90s, despite horrendous persecution by the Kim dynasty even worse than the Roman emperors. At this point, Kim Jong Un has abandoned trying to wipe out Christianity and is trying to co-opt it...the way Constantine did.

Constantine essentially adopted Christianity as the official roman religion and turned it to persecuting the others, it's when it went from one of the many religions of Rome to a world spanning religion.

Had he or someone like him never come to power you probably wouldn't be Christian.

That aside, the point was that he came to power via a violent seizure of power, sweeping aside the alternative emperors with military force.

To say that both he and the alternative persecution both have divine right to rule but not to be overthrown is a bit odd.
 
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RDKirk

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Constantine essentially adopted Christianity as the official roman religion and turned it to persecuting the others, it's when it went from one of the many religions of Rome to a world spanning religion.

That wasn't Constantine, that was Theodosius. Constantine just made Christianity one of the official Roman religions. He himself was not baptized until his deathbed.

The trick Constantine played is that as emperor, he was recognized by the empire as also pontifex maximus -- the highest priest -- of all Roman official religions. When he recognized Christianity as an official religion of the empire, adherents of all other official religions were forced to recognize him as the pontifex maximus of Christianity as well. That is most likely why he delayed baptism until the end of life, because that step would have required him to repudiate leadership of all the other religions.

Did Christians acknowledge him in that role? Probably not completely, but they did acquiesce to his demands on them in some significant theological issues.

Had he or someone like him never come to power you probably wouldn't be Christian.

As I mentioned, Christianity was growing despite resistance by Roman emperors, so I would argue that "someone like him" was inevitable.

That aside, the point was that he came to power via a violent seizure of power, sweeping aside the alternative emperors with military force.

To say that both he and the alternative persecution both have divine right to rule but not to be overthrown is a bit odd.

I would not argue "divine right" of any individual. As I said before, they are all tools that God picks up for His purpose and then tosses them away when He's finished with them.
 
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Leaf473

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Churches all over America solemnly teach about the importance of obeying government in the spirit of Romans 13. And yet we are perpetually celebrating the act of total rebellion against a Christian King in our nation's founding. We proudly celebrate the time when deists and other unbelievers overthrew a Christian monarchical order and replaced it with a system based on man's freedom to live whichever way he wants.

Two and a half centuries later and the men leading our nation are proudly dressed as women.

(115) Did The American Revolution Violate Scripture? Here's What You Should Know - YouTube
I've had that same thought myself. I don't know about the king at the time being Christian, but I agree with the thrust of your post.
 
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lifepsyop

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That's nice -- but irrelevant to Paul's purpose. He needed the church in Rome (which wasn't founded by him, so he had less authority there) to bankroll his missionary trip to Spain... which they can't do if they're butting heads with the government.

There's a thin line between "martyr" and "Suicide by Rome" -- the apostles (least of all Paul) had no interest in pole-vaulting over it.

look at what Paul is teaching... that we are to follow in the footsteps of a man who was nailed to a cross and executed by the state... that this man was God incarnate and could have called on the armies of heaven to defend him at any time. But Jesus willingly laid his life down, obedient unto death. Paul is teaching followers of Jesus to die to this world, that the kingdoms of this world will be swept away at the end of the age, that there is no treasure here that compares with the treasure we are laying up in heaven when we are raised up in Christ...

to argue that Paul was playing some type of long game in hopes of inspiring future armed rebellions is just a completely different universe than what we read in the Gospels.



Not at all -- The Founding Fathers had no interest in speeding Jesus' Kingdom along... they merely wanted those things which all men are endowed with by their Creator: Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

And look where their fallen god Liberty has taken them... to mass-surveilled American parents getting knocks on the door by the FBI for complaining about children indoctrinated to change genders in state schools. (Sometimes I think if those American colonists could have seen a couple centuries into the future they would have run screaming back to King George.)

There's that line from The Patriot... exchanging one tyrant 3,000 miles away for 3,000 tyrants one mile away....
 
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TLK Valentine

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look at what Paul is teaching... that we are to follow in the footsteps of a man who was nailed to a cross and executed by the state... that this man was God incarnate and could have called on the armies of heaven to defend him at any time. But Jesus willingly laid his life down, obedient unto death. Paul is teaching followers of Jesus to die to this world, that the kingdoms of this world will be swept away at the end of the age, that there is no treasure here that compares with the treasure we are laying up in heaven when we are raised up in Christ...

He had a far more specific message to the church in Rome -- I don't plan to ignore it.

to argue that Paul was playing some type of long game in hopes of inspiring future armed rebellions is just a completely different universe than what we read in the Gospels.

I argued no such thing.

And look where their fallen god Liberty has taken them... to mass-surveilled American parents getting knocks on the door by the FBI for complaining about children indoctrinated to change genders in state schools. (Sometimes I think if those American colonists could have seen a couple centuries into the future they would have run screaming back to King George.)

Now, now, now... that's the government you're talking about -- submit and obey, like you expect the rest of us to.

There's that line from The Patriot... exchanging one tyrant 3,000 miles away for 3,000 tyrants one mile away....

What are you complaining about? Isn't it more convenient to be submissive to a closer tyrant?
 
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That wasn't Constantine, that was Theodosius. Constantine just made Christianity one of the official Roman religions. He himself was not baptized until his deathbed.

A political trick mainly, he was both Christian and a church leader at the time.

Constantine coopted the roman empire mainly by putting Christians in the leadership positions throughout the empire, which eventually became the new norm, starting the slow but sure political process to make it a world spanning religion.
 
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RDKirk

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Constantine coopted the roman empire mainly by putting Christians in the leadership positions throughout the empire, which eventually became the new norm, starting the slow but sure political process to make it a world spanning religion.

That is also co-opting the Church. By giving the Church a stake in the empire, it meant the Church had to co-sign the acts taken by the empire to retain its power and wealth.
 
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That is also co-opting the Church. By giving the Church a stake in the empire, it meant the Church had to co-sign the acts taken by the empire to retain its power and wealth.

Sure. But, with this deal, and the basic point I was making, is that the Church did this and got in return long term geographical domination of the area.

And, to the point of this thread, he acted against the dictates of who put him in power by enforcing a single emperor instead of shared rulership.
 
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RDKirk

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And, to the point of this thread, he acted against the dictates of who put him in power by enforcing a single emperor instead of shared rulership.

We can't go too far beyond the point that Paul and Peter were making. It was not their intent to institute a theological doctrine of "divine right of kings." That was created by church leaders who were already merely chaplains for the king.

The Church flourishes better in an orderly society--even when that society is oppressive--than it does in a chaotic society. Paul's point was that Christians should not create or add to social chaos.
 
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