Thy will be done in which heaven ?

Carl Emerson · Jul 20, 2022

When we pray...

'Thy will be done on earth' is what we are to ask for...

...as it is in heaven !!!

Here is the question - which heaven is being referred to if His will is not being done there ???

The eternal heaven where He is preparing a place for us ???

The universe we see in the sky ???

The spiritual domain in which Satan has influence ???

It sounds like it must be effected by the fall.

It sounds like there is a spiritual battle going on there and our prayer will contribute to outcomes.

Your thoughts most welcome.

RileyG · Jul 20, 2022

Heaven where God is. We must do the will of God, as it is in heaven.

Daniel9v9 · Jul 20, 2022

If it's useful at all, here's what we teach in our Lutheran catechism:

The third petition
Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

[Matthew 6:10]

What does this mean?
Answer: The good and gracious will of God is done indeed without our prayer; but we pray in this petition that it may be done among us also.

How is this done?
Answer: When God breaks and hinders every evil counsel and will which would not let us hallow the name of God nor let His kingdom come, such as the will of the devil, the world, and our flesh; but strengthens and keeps us steadfast in His Word and in faith unto our end. This is His gracious and good will.

[cf. Colossians 1:16; Ezekiel 18:23; John 6:40; 1 Timothy 2:3-4; 1 Thessalonians 4:3; 1 Thessalonians 5:18; Mark 3:35; 1 Peter 2:15; 1 John 2:17]

If you're interested in the other petitions, I've published it online here: The Small Catechism – Luco

Blessings!

fhansen · Jul 20, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
When we pray...

'Thy will be done on earth' is what we are to ask for...

...as it is in heaven !!!

Here is the question - which heaven is being referred to if His will is not being done there ???

The eternal heaven where He is preparing a place for us ???

The universe we see in the sky ???

The spiritual domain in which Satan has influence ???

It sounds like it must be effected by the fall.

It sounds like there is a spiritual battle going on there and our prayer will contribute to outcomes.

Your thoughts most welcome.

His will is being done there….Sin is inherently opposed to His will. No sin in heaven, but earth is still rife with it, as we know. God is patient, drawing man to align with His will, not forcing it upon us.

Gregory Thompson · Jul 21, 2022

I tend to take this to mean, since His will is not done, that is why we pray.

GoldenKingGaze · Jul 21, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
When we pray...

'Thy will be done on earth' is what we are to ask for...

...as it is in heaven !!!

Here is the question - which heaven is being referred to if His will is not being done there ???

The eternal heaven where He is preparing a place for us ???

The universe we see in the sky ???

The spiritual domain in which Satan has influence ???

It sounds like it must be effected by the fall.

It sounds like there is a spiritual battle going on there and our prayer will contribute to outcomes.

Your thoughts most welcome.

Hebrews indicates that when Adam fell, since his reach of dominion reached Heaven, that the Heavenly utensils of worship were defiled, but by Jesus' blood were later cleaned.

Satan may no longer be able to accuse us from there. He may be on the Earth. Cast down. There are many disasters here now. I think there is a Heaven in the universe by the Norther Star, according to scripture. And another outside the universe.

Heaven is where God lives and rules and there is paradise beside it.

Neogaia777 · Jul 21, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
When we pray...

'Thy will be done on earth' is what we are to ask for...

...as it is in heaven !!!

Here is the question - which heaven is being referred to if His will is not being done there ???

The eternal heaven where He is preparing a place for us ???

The universe we see in the sky ???

The spiritual domain in which Satan has influence ???

It sounds like it must be effected by the fall.

It sounds like there is a spiritual battle going on there and our prayer will contribute to outcomes.

Your thoughts most welcome.

I believe there are two realms beyond this one, and that one is already here with us from where certain spirits operate already, or that are right now within, or are alongside this one that we are in right now, where both they and we are right now dwelling, etc, and that these are connected to the point that they are joined at the hip, etc, but also that there is another higher one beyond them both, and it is the only one that is truly timeless/eternal, and is where God the Father always is/was/has been, or always was/has been, or has always dwelt, etc, and that it is the ultimate authority on both of these other realms, etc, both ours and the one in-between where some of the spirits right now operate and dwell, etc, but that right now at least, the realm that is in-between where some or certain kinds of spirits dwell, has been given some measure of authority over this one by the higher one right now where both we, and it, and them, right now dwell, etc...

My reasons for this are many, and would be too much to get into full detail here, but this is a conclusion that I have come to along the way in my learning and development and growth/reasoning now along the way, etc...

It was necessary to come up with these/this idea(s) in order to make all my other ideas fit or work along the way, etc, and I do think it's all very very much biblical also, etc, but I also think that "that", might take too much to explain here along the way, etc...

God Bless!

Neogaia777 · Jul 21, 2022

Neogaia777 said:
I believe there are two realms beyond this one, and that one is already here with us from where certain spirits operate already, or that right now within this one that we are in right now right now dwell, etc, and that these are connected, etc, but also that there is another higher one beyond them both, and it is the only one that is truly timeless/eternal, and is where God the Father always is/was/has been, or always was/has been, or has always dwelt, etc, and that it is the ultimate authority on both of these other realms, etc, both ours and the one in-between where some of the spirits right now operate and dwell, etc, but that right now at least, the realm that is in-between where some or certain kinds of spirits dwell, has been given some measure of authority over this one by the higher one right now where both we, and it, and them, right now dwell, etc...

My reasons for this are many, and would be too much to get into full detail here, but this is a conclusion that I have come to along the way in my learning and development and growth now along the/my way, etc...

It was necessary to come up with these/this idea(s) in order to make all my other ideas fit or work along the way, etc, and I do think it's very biblical also, etc, but that "that" might take too much to explain here, etc...

God Bless!

And as for God's will being done, God the Father's will has been always been being done, and has never not ever been not being done ever at all ever, from the very beginning, down through/to all it's very endings, etc...

So a prayer for that to be being done, is just asking it to be continuing to be being done, etc...

God Bless!

Carl Emerson · Jul 21, 2022

OK some good responses thanks.

My prime question however may not have been understood.

Lets try again...

God created the Heavens and the earth.

That would include the physical earth, the physical heavenly bodies in the universe, and the spiritual domain in which Satan was given dominion.

All 3 of these realms were affected by the fall and corrupted.

However apart from these three realms there is a heavenly realm that is perfect - hence the prayer says "as it is in heaven"

That place where He says He has prepared a place for us that where He is there we may be also.

That place where Jesus went to during His ascension.

That heavenly place where God existed pre-creation which has always been perfect - the place where Jesus in His priestly order of Melchizedek was before the beginning of time.

That place where God is enthroned according to Daniel 7:9-

As it is in Heaven is that place !!!

Neogaia777 · Jul 21, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
OK some good responses thanks.

My prime question however may not have been understood.

Lets try again...

God created the Heavens and the earth.

That would include the physical earth, the physical heavenly bodies in the universe, and the spiritual domain in which Satan was given dominion.

All 3 of these realms were affected by the fall and corrupted.

However apart from these three realms there is a heavenly realm that is perfect - hence the prayer says "as it is in heaven"

That place where He says He has prepared a place for us that where He is there we may be also.

That place where Jesus went to during His ascension.

That heavenly place where God existed pre-creation which has always been perfect - the place where Jesus in His priestly order of Melchizedek was before the beginning of time.

That place where God is enthroned according to Daniel 7:9-

As it is in Heaven is that place !!!

His will being done on earth as it is is in Heaven, does not mean that these places are to be the exact same, or are to be having the exact same kinds of things happening or going on or taking place in them or in both places, etc, just that His will is being carried out and/or is being done (or already is done, etc) in both places, etc, and that doesn't mean the exact same, etc...

Hope that helps or makes some sense...

God Bless!

com7fy8 · Jul 21, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
As it is in Heaven is that place !!!

Yes, if I understand you correctly, Jesus means where God is, and where now Jesus is seated at the right hand of God. And He means Heaven which is how God is.

Neogaia777 · Jul 21, 2022

Neogaia777 said:
His will being done on earth as it is is in Heaven, does not mean that these places are to be the exact same, or are to be having the exact same kinds of things happening or going on or taking place in them or in both places, etc, just that His will is being carried out and/or is being done (or already is done, etc) in both places, etc, and that doesn't mean the exact same, etc...

Hope that helps or makes some sense...

God Bless!

After thinking about this response above just now, I guess it depends on how you read it...?

Is Jesus telling us to pray that things here might go like things are there, or is He telling us to pray that His will be done in both places, even if they are slightly different in both places right now, etc...?

Or is He telling us to pray that God's will might just continue either way, since God the Father's will has not, not been being done ever at all ever, either way, etc...?

I guess it depends on how you read it, etc...?

But Jesus had to have known that things here would not be or become just like things are there for a very very long time yet also, and that it probably would not happen, or would not be being done completely, until very very near the very very end of it all also, etc...?

So, I guess it depends on how you read it, etc...

Either way, things here are not ever going to be just like things there, for a very, very, very very very, long, long time yet, etc...

And God the Father's will has been always being done in any and/or all places always, either way, etc...

And that is not ever able to change, or is ever able to be violated ever at all ever, etc...

God Bless!

eleos1954 · Jul 21, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
When we pray...

'Thy will be done on earth' is what we are to ask for...

...as it is in heaven !!!

Here is the question - which heaven is being referred to if His will is not being done there ???

The eternal heaven where He is preparing a place for us ???

The universe we see in the sky ???

The spiritual domain in which Satan has influence ???

It sounds like it must be effected by the fall.

It sounds like there is a spiritual battle going on there and our prayer will contribute to outcomes.

Your thoughts most welcome.

The Kingdom of God: Already, Not Yet

Jesus came proclaiming the kingdom of God. In His first public proclamation at Nazareth (Luke 4:16-21) Jesus affirmed that through Him that day Isaiah's Messianic prophecy of the kingdom and its redeeming ministry had been inaugurated.

Luke records another saying that attests the kingdom's present reality. Asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom would come, Jesus answered them that the kingdom of God is within you (Luke 17:21, NKJV). Other translations suggest that the kingdom is in your midst. That is to say, with the arrival of Jesus, the kingdom has already come, with its components to include healing the sick (Luke 9:11), preaching of the gospel (Luke 4:16-19), forgiving sins (Luke 7:48-50; 19:9-10), and crushing the forces of evil (Luke 11:20).

Thus, Jesus made the kingdom a present reality within the individual, transforming the person to be like Him. The kingdom of God is also seen amid the community of believers, a revelation of righteousness and salvation. This present aspect is also known as the kingdom of God's grace [that] is now being established, as day by day hearts that have been full of sin and rebellion yield to the sovereignty of His love.

While the already aspect has settled the finality of the kingdom-that is, the defeat of sin and Satan and Jesus' victory - the not yet aspect looks forward to the physical end of evil and the establishment of the new earth: The full establishment of the kingdom of His glory will not take place until the second coming of Christ to this world.

Carl Emerson · Jul 21, 2022

eleos1954 said:
The Kingdom of God: Already, Not Yet

Jesus came proclaiming the kingdom of God. In His first public proclamation at Nazareth (Luke 4:16-21) Jesus affirmed that through Him that day Isaiah's Messianic prophecy of the kingdom and its redeeming ministry had been inaugurated.

Luke records another saying that attests the kingdom's present reality. Asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom would come, Jesus answered them that the kingdom of God is within you (Luke 17:21, NKJV). Other translations suggest that the kingdom is in your midst. That is to say, with the arrival of Jesus, the kingdom has already come, with its components to include healing the sick (Luke 9:11), preaching of the gospel (Luke 4:16-19), forgiving sins (Luke 7:48-50; 19:9-10), and crushing the forces of evil (Luke 11:20).

Thus, Jesus made the kingdom a present reality within the individual, transforming the person to be like Him. The kingdom of God is also seen amid the community of believers, a revelation of righteousness and salvation. This present aspect is also known as the kingdom of God's grace [that] is now being established, as day by day hearts that have been full of sin and rebellion yield to the sovereignty of His love.

While the already aspect has settled the finality of the kingdom-that is, the defeat of sin and Satan and Jesus' victory - the not yet aspect looks forward to the physical end of evil and the establishment of the new earth: The full establishment of the kingdom of His glory will not take place until the second coming of Christ to this world.

So 'as it is in heaven' which heaven ???

eleos1954 · Jul 21, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
So 'as it is in heaven' which heaven ???

There are 3 heavens

The first heaven consists of the earth’s atmosphere, where the clouds float and birds fly.

The second heaven, is where the sun, moon, stars, and galaxies hang suspended.

The third heaven is the dwelling place of God.

so it would be the 3rd heaven, the dwelling place of God.

on earth as it is in heaven.

Revelation 21:3
King James Bible
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Can't wait! But guess will have to .... heaven on earth one day ;o)

Guojing · Jul 22, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
When we pray...

'Thy will be done on earth' is what we are to ask for...

...as it is in heaven !!!

Here is the question - which heaven is being referred to if His will is not being done there ???

The eternal heaven where He is preparing a place for us ???

The universe we see in the sky ???

The spiritual domain in which Satan has influence ???

It sounds like it must be effected by the fall.

It sounds like there is a spiritual battle going on there and our prayer will contribute to outcomes.

Your thoughts most welcome.

Jesus's first coming was to usher Israel into their promised kingdom. This will be a kingdom where heaven itself is found on Earth, (2 Samuel 7:12-16).

So think of the Lord's prayer as instructions for the nation of Israel to pray that this kingdom will come soon, "Thy kingdom come".

When that kingdom is finally set up, God's will will be done on Earth as it is in heaven.

fhansen · Jul 22, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
OK some good responses thanks.

My prime question however may not have been understood.

Lets try again...

God created the Heavens and the earth.

That would include the physical earth, the physical heavenly bodies in the universe, and the spiritual domain in which Satan was given dominion.

All 3 of these realms were affected by the fall and corrupted.

However apart from these three realms there is a heavenly realm that is perfect - hence the prayer says "as it is in heaven"

That place where He says He has prepared a place for us that where He is there we may be also.

That place where Jesus went to during His ascension.

That heavenly place where God existed pre-creation which has always been perfect - the place where Jesus in His priestly order of Melchizedek was before the beginning of time.

That place where God is enthroned according to Daniel 7:9-

As it is in Heaven is that place !!!

Yes! So why shouldn't a believer want God's will to be done here -as it is there?

Carl Emerson · Jul 22, 2022

fhansen said:
Yes! So why shouldn't a believer want God's will to be done here -as it is there?

Beats me...

Carl Emerson · Jul 22, 2022

Guojing said:
Jesus's first coming was to usher Israel into their promised kingdom. This will be a kingdom where heaven itself is found on Earth, (2 Samuel 7:12-16).

So think of the Lord's prayer as instructions for the nation of Israel to pray that this kingdom will come soon, "Thy kingdom come".

When that kingdom is finally set up, God's will will be done on Earth as it is in heaven.

Which Heaven ???

Carl Emerson · Jul 22, 2022

eleos1954 said:
There are 3 heavens

The first heaven consists of the earth’s atmosphere, where the clouds float and birds fly.

The second heaven, is where the sun, moon, stars, and galaxies hang suspended.

The third heaven is the dwelling place of God.

so it would be the 3rd heaven, the dwelling place of God.

on earth as it is in heaven.

Revelation 21:3
King James Bible
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Can't wait! But guess will have to .... heaven on earth one day ;o)

Did the third heaven pre-exist the creation ?

Thy will be done in which heaven ?

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