Doctrine of demons

ByTheSpirit · Jul 19, 2022

ARBITER01 said:
No problem.

A lot of this reflects what Jesus said about a stronghold being cast out and then coming back worse than before with friends.

This person will need time and a lot of prayer to get a grasp on his situation and develop good habits with GOD,... effective prayer, fasting, bible reading, fellowship,... etc.

If I may have a follow on question then, should this person be out and about preaching Jesus and laying hands on people? Or should they spend time getting themselves "straight" before going out.

ARBITER01 · Jul 19, 2022

ByTheSpirit said:
If I may have a follow on question then, should this person be out and about preaching Jesus and laying hands on people? Or should they spend time getting themselves "straight" before going out.

Anyone that is saved needs time to become proficient with GOD. In his case, if he is still fighting not just the old man but things that know all about him and his habits before, then he shouldn't be in the thick of things, especially laying hands on people.

He needs to make sure his house is in order first, and that could take some time.

ByTheSpirit · Jul 19, 2022

ARBITER01 said:
Anyone that is saved needs time to become proficient with GOD. In his case, if he is still fighting not just the old man but things that know all about him and his habits before, then he shouldn't be in the thick of things, especially laying hands on people.

He needs to make sure his house is in order first, and that could take some time.

Thank you for the feedback.

I was talking to my wife about this the other night. I told her I thought of it like war. I was in the military and she grew up an Army brat so she can relate as well. I told her, when someone enlists in the military, they aren't just given a weapon and told to go fight. They are sent to training to get the discipline necessary to carry out the mission. They are taught how to be a Soldier and given the resources necessary.

I liken this situation to that. Really the group I'm involved in as a whole I think could learn from this. I don't believe they'd likely listen though, but I suppose I don't plan on being involved with them much longer.

ARBITER01 · Jul 19, 2022

ByTheSpirit said:
Thank you for the feedback.

I was talking to my wife about this the other night. I told her I thought of it like war. I was in the military and she grew up an Army brat so she can relate as well. I told her, when someone enlists in the military, they aren't just given a weapon and told to go fight. They are sent to training to get the discipline necessary to carry out the mission. They are taught how to be a Soldier and given the resources necessary.

I liken this situation to that. Really the group I'm involved in as a whole I think could learn from this. I don't believe they'd likely listen though, but I suppose I don't plan on being involved with them much longer.

Agreed.

Too many churches and individuals from church think that once you are born again you are to immediately start preaching Jesus and getting people saved,......not everyone is suppose to be a preacher in GOD's will.

Like you mentioned, training is paramount. We can't just have a theoretical knowledge of what we are suppose to do, but one steeped in experience from The Holy Spirit.

Hidden In Him · Jul 19, 2022

Disciple_mike said:
i note you often reference people . not scripture . ?? and ..
Definition of ADVERSARY

I posted the following in Post #11:

Hidden In Him said:
1 My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. 2 For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body. 3 Indeed, we put bits in horses’ mouths that they may obey us, and we turn their whole body. 4 Look also at ships: although they are so large and are driven by fierce winds, they are turned by a very small rudder wherever the pilot desires. 5 Even so the tongue is a little member and boasts great things.

See how great a forest a little fire kindles! 6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. The tongue is so set among our members that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire by hell. 7 For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and creature of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by mankind. 8 But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. 9 With it we bless our God and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the similitude of God. 10 Out of the same mouth proceed blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be so. 11 Does a spring send forth fresh water and bitter from the same opening? 12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Thus no spring yields both salt water and fresh.

13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic.

The following in Post #13:

Hidden In Him said:
24 “When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ 25 And when he comes, he finds it swept and put in order. 26 Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first.”

The following in Post #55:

Hidden In Him said:
ἕκαστος δὲ πειράζεται ὑπὸ τῆς ἰδίας ἐπιθυμίας ἐξελκόμενος καὶ δελεαζόμενος.

ὑπὸ can be and is defined several different ways in the New Testament, and were the second half of the verse translated "by means of" or "under" it would avoid confusion. The end of the sentence reads literally as "being drawn away, and being enticed." This latter (δελεαζόμενος) in particular suggests he is talking about something outside the believer rather than something within him.

The Following in Post #95:

Hidden In Him said:
17 But we, brethren, having been taken away from you for a short time in presence, not in heart, endeavored more eagerly to see your face with great desire. 18 Therefore we wanted to come to you—even I, Paul, time and again—but Satan hindered us.

You have noted that this constitutes "not referencing scripture." My senses tell me it is not even worth asking you how you came to that conclusion, but I'll shoot:

What in the above does not constitute scripture to you?

Disciple_mike · Jul 19, 2022

ByTheSpirit said:
I guess that's my question though. Repentance is necessary for salvation (not trying to make this thread about salvation per se so I'll leave it at that). So if such a person never repented, were they really born again?

I guess my concern is someone who is preaching Jesus, still having a demon, laying hands on people, or at very minimum, someone seeing this person manifest demons, after preaching Jesus. Aren't we supposed to not bring disrepute upon the gospel?

Not trying to argue I promise.

I guess my thing is, should we first make sure that people are trained and properly equipped before sending them out to preach?

some people have not yet surrendered to the good news of Jesus even though they accept the good news of Jesus . many become Christian so to speak . But few die to themselves and follow him. There's a big difference ( i didn't think you were arguing haha -there are a lot of misunderstood things and while driving a devil out can take a few minutes or an hour or 3 .. renewing the mind can take very much longer as the enemy held them in a stronghold of his way of thinking ) . i'm reminded of Paul who said the gospel was preached for differing reasons and motives but he rejoiced that it was preached ( he understood the power of it being spoken out ) though some people were doing it with the motive of making PAUL look bad and make his time in prison worse . so they were certainly not saved re born people doing it . when it comes to the gospel message - the WORD remains true regardless of who speaks it out

Disciple_mike · Jul 19, 2022

Hidden In Him said:
I posted the following in Post #11:

The following in Post #13:

The following in Post #55:

The Following in Post #95:

You have noted that this constitutes "not referencing scripture." My senses tell me it is not even worth asking you how you came to that conclusion, but I'll shoot:

What in the above does not constitute scripture to you?

funny guy .. i was referring to the comment I replied to of course. methinks you are argumentative for the sake of being argumentative . i find no edification in that .

tturt · Jul 20, 2022

It seems some don't read what's been posted but that's life on the forums.

Disciple_mike · Jul 20, 2022

ByTheSpirit said:
Thank you for the feedback.

I was talking to my wife about this the other night. I told her I thought of it like war. I was in the military and she grew up an Army brat so she can relate as well. I told her, when someone enlists in the military, they aren't just given a weapon and told to go fight. They are sent to training to get the discipline necessary to carry out the mission. They are taught how to be a Soldier and given the resources necessary.

I liken this situation to that. Really the group I'm involved in as a whole I think could learn from this. I don't believe they'd likely listen though, but I suppose I don't plan on being involved with them much longer.

the interesting thing about the military analogy is that new recruits are immediately trained in the basics .. but not the basics of dorr greeting and attendance . the basics of discipline and actual use of weapons . in contrast most churches want people to be door greeters and vacuum cleansing experts .. ( loose examples) for as long as the overlords demand in the hope that one distant day they may earn the right to learn how to use the weapon of the Gospel . imagine if real military had that attitude . and we know every soldier sent out to do battle is not yet built up in character but in all sorts of sates of development . new believers should first be taught how to do the straightforward things the things Jesus said to be done - then as they do HE builds character in them . - things as basic as how to heal the sick how to preach the gospel how to drive out devils how to baptise the repentant how to minister the baptism of the holy Spirit ... are abd should be , basic training .. later they serve in the differing capacity . we have many in leadership who have not ever done basic training , the result is - theoretical training . book work over actual work . and they disciple others into the same theory with out practice . in effect they disciple people to be hearers but not doers of the word because that is what they were disciples of .

Disciple_mike · Jul 20, 2022

tturt said:
It seems some don't read what's been posted but that's life on the forums.

not every comment ..

ByTheSpirit · Jul 20, 2022

Disciple_mike said:
some people have not yet surrendered to the good news of Jesus even though they accept the good news of Jesus . many become Christian so to speak .. but few die to themselves and follow him. there's a big difference ( i didn't think you were arguing haha -there are a ot of misunderstood things and while driving a devil out can take a few minutes or an hour or 3 .. renewing the mind can take very much longer as the enemy had them a stronghold of his way of thinking ) . im reminded of paul who saud the gospel was preached for differing reasons and motives but he rejoiced that it was preached ( he understood the power of it being spoken out ) though some people were doing it with the motive of making PAUL look bad and make his time in prison worse . so they were certainly not saved re born people doing it . when it comes to the gospel message - the WORD remains true regardless of who speaks it out

Guess I had rather forgotten about Philippians 1:18. Thank you for the reminder

ByTheSpirit · Jul 20, 2022

tturt said:
Question -does our flesh manifest in the same manner as a demon? If I'm understanding the question-
They seem to prefer bodies
"So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine." Matt 8:31

"When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out;..."
Matt 12:43

,"And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him." I Sam 16:231

Also, "...Bring thy son hither.
42 And as he was yet a coming, the devil threw him down, and tare him. And Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, and healed the child, and delivered him again to his father.""Luk 9:41-2

At another place "And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way." Matt 8:28

Also, "And they brought him unto him: and when he saw him, straightway the spirit tare him; and he fell on the ground, and wallowed foaming.
21 And he asked his father, How long is it ago since this came unto him? And he said, Of a child.
22 And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us.

23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.

26 And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead.

27 But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose." Mark 9

Thankfully God is the answer. Listening to the Holy Spirit includes us not being empty but filled with God and His Word.

I'm not sure if this was directed at me or not. I seemed a bit thrown off by the suggestion from another that the individual I'm referencing could be hissing and slithering like a snake because it was his flesh manifesting and not a demon. I just don't think I've ever heard that before.

tturt · Jul 20, 2022

Never heard of manifesting in the flesh either. Maybe the Scriptures referenced in #117 is considered manifesting in the flesh.

They"re manifestations of evil spirits. The people (in their flesh) acted differently when the evil spirits left. Maybe it's just terminology.

Anyway, one thing that I noticed this time in reviewing those were the examples involving children. One of our pastors was always concerned about the children during deliverance.

Noticed in one of those Scriptures, the evil spirits were told not to enter again (Mark 9). Wondered why Jesus didn't always give that directive at each deliverance or tell the evil spirits where to go once departed..

Telling the evil not to enter again seems unusual especially considering Matt 12:43-45. Most authors consider "findeth it empty, swept, and garnished." the desired status BUT that's why the unclean spirit can enter again and bring 7x worse crowd with it. Being empty means not pursuing God and His Word so there's some effort on our part.

Hidden In Him · Jul 20, 2022

Disciple_mike said:
funny guy .. i was referring to the comment I replied to of course. methinks you are argumentative for the sake of being argumentative . i find no edification in that .

Since you went out of your way to initiate this unedifying exchange yourself, if you were referring only to my one comment which you replied to "of course," then tell me: How is it that "I often referenced people but not scripture" in just that one post?

If you don't find this exchange "edifying," don't double down with statements that make even less sense than your initial post. You're the one who initiated this exchange to tell me what "you noticed" and what "you thinks," not the other way around.

ByTheSpirit · Jul 20, 2022

tturt said:
Never heard of manifesting in the flesh either. Maybe the Scriptures referenced in #117 is considered manifesting in the flesh.

They"re manifestations of evil spirits. The people (in their flesh) acted differently when the evil spirits left. Maybe it's just terminology.

Anyway, one thing that I noticed this time in reviewing those were the examples involving children. One of our pastors was always concerned about the children during deliverance.

Noticed in one of those Scriptures, the evil spirits were told not to enter again (Mark 9). Wondered why Jesus didn't always give that directive at each deliverance or tell the evil spirits where to go once departed..

Telling the evil not to enter again seems unusual especially considering Matt 12:43-45. Most authors consider "findeth it empty, swept, and garnished." the desired status BUT that's why the unclean spirit can enter again and bring 7x worse crowd with it. Being empty means not pursuing God and His Word so there's some effort on our part.

It definitely does seem that casting out a demon when it can return with more is a less than desirable outcome. Someone very near and dear to me I believe God showed me is dealing with a serpent (demon) of anger. But they absolutely refuse to have to cast out. Some have told me to just take the authority over it, but it seems if I were to do so, the thing could return with more since the person doesn't want deliverance. Maybe that type of deal?

tturt · Jul 20, 2022

Also, the situation with "Steve" laying hands on people is very concerning to me because
"Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure." I Tim 5:22

We emphasis the first part of that verse and ignore the rest.

The high priest in the tabernacle addreseed his sins first then the congregation's such as Heb 9:7. God is holy.

tturt · Jul 20, 2022

There's difference between casting out and taking authority over it.

There is taking authority over it that doesnt include making it depart, casting it out, from the individual.

ByTheSpirit · Jul 20, 2022

tturt said:
Also, the situation with "Steve" laying hands on people is very concerning to me because
"Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure." I Tim 5:22

We emphasis the first part of that verse and ignore the rest.

The high priest in the tabernacle addreseed his sins first then the congregation's such as Heb 9:7. God is holy.

Yeah, that is my issue with it as well. Now of course, all of us have some degree of issue going on at any one time, but someone possibly under the influence of a demon(s) should probably not be laying hands on anybody in Jesus name. Seems rather dangerous. But then again I suppose that raises another question that Charismatics would disagree on. Can a Christian have a demon or be demonized (as Derek Prince would say)?

tturt · Jul 20, 2022

Deliverance is for believers imo because:
-Going back to Matt 12:43-45. Usually a non-believer isn't going to pursue God and His Word so their spiritual state is "empty, swept, and garnished." Why cause their spiritual state be 7x worse ?
-"Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:" Eph 2:2

Of course, if the Holy Spirit is leading regarding an unbeliever then that's the way it needs to go..

Maybe the blinders from their minds need to be removed first
"...for their minds have been blinded by the god of this age, leaving them in unbelief. Their blindness keeps them from seeing the dayspring light of the wonderful news of the glory of Jesus Christ, who is the divine image of God." (II Cor 4:4).

Know a ministry that urges someone who becomes a believer to immediately have deliverance. At one time, they had a 95% of folks continuing with the Lord.

Disciple_mike · Jul 20, 2022

Hidden In Him said:
Since you went out of your way to initiate this unedifying exchange yourself, if you were referring only to my one comment which you replied to "of course," then tell me: How is it that "I often referenced people but not scripture" in just that one post?

If you don't find this exchange "edifying," don't double down with statements that make even less sense than your initial post. You're the one who initiated this exchange to tell me what "you noticed" and what "you thinks," not the other way around.

i was referring to other threads on other subforums ..

Doctrine of demons

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