Doctrine of demons

Disciple_mike said:

and this leads to that person teaching "teachings of devils .

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Can you link a source for this?

Thank you.

Welcome back I remember you.

hislegacy said:

Can you link a source for this?

Thank you.

Welcome back Allishis777

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from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks ... Jesus said so

Disciple_mike said:

from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks ... Jesus said so

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Great bumper sticker!

care to enhance what you are trying to say?

hislegacy said:

Great bumper sticker!

care to enhance what you are trying to say?

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I think your manner is quite disrespectful ..it not a bumper sticker it is what the lord Jesus said . I don't think i need to really - you know the scripture yes ? what fills a mans heart comes out his mouth . the word spirit is the word BREATH .
And Saul, yet breathing out threatening's and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord,he was at that time full of a very bad murderous spirit ... at that time he was certainly speaking teachings of devils . and we would not give too much credence to what he taught BEFORE he was cleaned out and given a NEW spirit .which in a way answers the OP.

Disciple_mike said:

I think your manner is quite disrespectful ..it not a bumper sticker it is what the lord Jesus said . I don't think i need to really - you know the scripture yes ? what fills a mans heart comes out his mouth . the word spirit is the word BREATH .
And Saul, yet breathing out threatening's and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord,he was at that time full of a very bad murderous spirit ... at that time he was certainly speaking teachings of devils . and we would not give too much credence to what he taught BEFORE he was cleaned out and given a NEW spirit .which in a way answers the OP.

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Thank you.

May I please kindly respond that your statement on Paul having a murderous spirit is not found in scripture. Nor is there any reference to Paul speaking teachings of devils.

It may be an assumption or an observation but certainly cannot be embraced as absolute truth.

I appreciate your patience with me. I know it can be annoying to be challenged.

personally I welcome challenges to my beliefs. It results in one of two things, Either my beliefs are reenforced with new knowledge, or I learn something new and my beliefs are enhanced and changed.

I have been exposed to and read much of the Spiritual Warfare teachings since the early 90’s. There seems to be new veins of the teaching, but I personally find the foundation lacking firm ground.

Thank you again for your patience with me.

I wanted to come back to the scripture section that Turt referenced,...

Eph 6:10 ¶Finally, |my brethren|, be strong in the Lord, and in the strength of his might.
Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil.
Eph 6:12 For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the °world-rulers of the darkness |of this age|, against the spiritual [hosts] of wickedness in the heavenly [places].
Eph 6:13 Wherefore take up the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and, having done all, to stand.
°CT-world-rulers of this darkness, against...

According to scripture here, this can be a daily fight for most of us. While the flesh does hold it's lusts, it is still a daily spiritual fight and struggle to deny ourselves and pick up our cross.

If there are people claiming that they have no fight like described in scripture here,.... then I question their so-called born again status.

Disciple_mike said:

And Saul, yet breathing out threatening's and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord,he was at that time full of a very bad murderous spirit ... at that time he was certainly speaking teachings of devils . and we would not give too much credence to what he taught BEFORE he was cleaned out and given a NEW spirit .which in a way answers the OP.

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This is correct,..

Act 9:1 ¶But Saul, yet breathing threatening and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
Act 9:2 and asked of him letters to Damascus unto the synagogues, that if he found any that were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.

Original: φόνος
- Transliteration: Phonos
- Phonetic: fon'-os
- Definition:
1. murder, slaughter
- Origin: from an obsolete primary pheno (to murder)
- TDNT entry: None
- Part(s) of speech: Noun Masculine

- Strong's: From an obsolete primary φένω phenō(to slay); murder: - murder + be slain with slaughter.
Total KJV Occurrences: 7

Paul was still unregenerate at that point, and certainly subject to acting out his desires.

Agreed, where does the battle happen?

I think the pieces of armor gives us a picture of what needs to be protected from the devils “wiles”. (Methods)
note the end verses.

That I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the Gospel.

we battle with

Truth
Righteousness
The preparation of the Gospel
The Word of God

So we can speak boldly and reveal the mystery of the Gospel of Christ.

The spiritual warriors that I have known (ABSOLUTELY NO ONE HERE) have been so busy in their battles, they never seem to get to the Gospel. It seems (note the observation) they are so focused on the fight, there is little fruit I.e. salvations, healings, baptisms of the Holy Spirit etc

Is it possible that one of the devils wiles (methods is to get the beliefs eyes off the finished work of Christ and focused on him instead?

I can be completely mistaken.

@hislegacy

Let's make this formal,..

Harassment

• Be considerate and do not make another member's experience on this site miserable. This includes making false accusations or persistently attacking them in the open forums.
• Respect another member's request to cease personal contact.

Don't ever make posts to me, either directly or indirectly, or I will reference this post to you to the mods. We do not have any fellowship, nor will we ever.

Make sure you abide by my request.

"Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil." (Matt 4:1)

Since the enemy tempted Jesus, then don't think we're off limits.

Here's one where it is stated -
"Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency." I Cor 7:5

Probably others.

tturt said:

Since the enemy tempted Jesus, then don't think we're off limits.

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Our life in Christianity is not going to be all that enjoyable. Look at Paul, he suffered greatly, and Jesus said he would for His name.

Any Christian that is worth his/her salt with The Lord is going to have a lot of times of suffering. There will be moments of victory, yes, but we will be thrown right back into the fire.

If our Apostles and Prophets were not immune to it, what makes anyone think that they will be?

ByTheSpirit said:

So probably not what you think the question is, but I'm curious. If someone you know was ministering to other people and then it later was revealed the one ministering had a demon, how would you view such an event and the group/denomination that supported them?

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hello!

Just because a person is seemingly popular/ enthusiastic/ extroverted/ ambitious does not mean that this person is a Spirit filled believer sent by God.

It seems to be a sad fact that sometimes groups/denominations promote narcissistic devils based on worldly criteria.

The bible gives many passages with incredibly high standards for those who are placed into leadership positions in the church. Character and faith are vital, not just external criteria. We ignore these biblical standards at the sheep's peril.

I would view such groups/events as not following Godly/biblical standards. The bible describes in many passages what happens when wolves are let loose on the flock.

God Bless You

ARBITER01 said:

We've had several threads on subjects like this in the last year, and a certain person in the thread always tends to fight against any notion of demonic activity against believers,...

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Ah... will take it under advisement.

hislegacy said:

Also plain and clear is that the devil has been defeated - has been - already defeated. Our 'war" with the devil is one of containment.

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I think you are coming from a particular theological perspective that I'm not fully aware of yet, but I wouldn't put it this way. Rather, according to scripture Satan is constantly waging a war to contain us, or more properly to contain the word of God. As Paul said in 1st Thessalonians 2:

17 But we, brethren, having been taken away from you for a short time in presence, not in heart, endeavored more eagerly to see your face with great desire. 18 Therefore we wanted to come to you—even I, Paul, time and again—but Satan hindered us.

You see here that the apostle was not trying to contain Satan, but that Satan was trying to contain him, and keep him from traveling to congregations to minister the word to them and protect them from deception and false teaching.

Tell me, what would you say is the primary thing that has influenced your views on this? I don't mean necessarily a preacher or teacher, I mean what life experiences or theological viewpoints most strongly color why you believe that demonic activity is often overplayed by many Christians? Give specific instances or people that effected your view on it.

I'll try not to play couch psychologist. Just wanting to know where your viewpoint is coming from.

Hidden In Him said:

Tell me, what would you say is the primary thing that has influenced your views on this? I don't mean necessarily a preacher or teacher, I mean what life experiences or theological viewpoints most strongly color why you believe that demonic activity is often overplayed by many Christians? Give specific instances or people that effected your view on it.

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I was introduced to the theories of C. Peter Wagner and Chuck Pierce back in the 80's. I believe it was just after C. Peter left Fuller Theological Seminary. I had a number of interactions with Fuller because of a church growth series they produced. (Good Series BTW).

It was the late 80's / early 90's that C.Peter spearheaded the warfare movement, I know I read his book "Warfare Prayer" around that time and the growth of "Warring in Tongues" became widely popular in some circles.

My pastor at the time was very much involved with Randall Terry and the early Pro Life movement. He made getting arrested like a badge of honor. We gathered as a group, perhaps 20 or so and went to war on his behalf because he was facing charges as an habitual offender (which he was) - some were praying angry prayers in tongues at the top of their lungs - screaming into the heavenliness - others were binding a variety of demons - still others were pulling down strong holds - (their words, not mine)

The next day the judge threw my pastor in jail for 11 months.

I remember wondering with all the hours of prayer and all the energy and fervency - why didn't it work? What went wrong? In the months he was incarcerated we prayed nightly for him, that his angels would protect him and as before binding the devil, warring tongues, pulling down strongholds etc. as before.

His 11 month sentence became almost two years as additional charges were racked up on him. The church, once 2,200 strong dissolved to less than 300 and then completely closed.

It wasn't until I read "Territorial Spirits" a number of years later that I began to question the whole Spiritual Warfare teachings.

I read after Ron Philips and a couple other authors who do not come to mind right now.

My journey continued when I started studying Theology. Foundations of Pentecostal Theology by McDuff and VanCleaf is very well written, as is Bible Doctrine: a Pentecostal Perspective by Menzies and Horton.
Along with a couple Angelology courses, it gives a pretty well rounded view (IMHO) of demons and satan.

As I learned exegesis techniques my main influence was Scripture itself and the Holy Spirit.

I remember praying for a group of "Prayer Warriors" and asking God to bless them and hearing Him say those at war are always at war and can see nothing but the fight. They are fighting the war I won 2,000 and have given up peace to continue what is already won.

Then I started experiencing it in the ministry. Casting out demons has been part of my ministry - certainly not a majority - but a part still the same.

Hope that answers your question. Thanks for asking.

Hidden In Him said:

I think you are coming from a particular theological perspective that I'm not fully aware of yet, but I wouldn't put it this way. Rather, according to scripture Satan is constantly waging a war to contain us, or more properly to contain the word of God. As Paul said in 1st Thessalonians 2:

17 But we, brethren, having been taken away from you for a short time in presence, not in heart, endeavored more eagerly to see your face with great desire. 18 Therefore we wanted to come to you—even I, Paul, time and again—but Satan hindered us.

You see here that the apostle was not trying to contain Satan, but that Satan was trying to contain him, and keep him from traveling to congregations to minister the word to them and protect them from deception and false teaching.

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Paul indeed mentioned a number of times the enemy hindered his travel - thought every time he did eventually travel as led by God.

Remember also Paul testifies:


All hindrances from Satan - but look at how he ended his statement -

Can the devil and demons hinder the advancement of the Gospel - yup
How does he? Through opposition and hardship Paul spoke extensively of it.

Can the devil influence the heart of a person - yup - remember Annanias?

I submitt that those who do not actively wins souls, witness and share the Gospel are not even on his radar - why - they aren't doing anything anyway. my opinion.

The issue I have in this thread specifically is that we have a text from James 1


And some are actually arguing that James is not correct. I ask for clarification and it seems I instead receive obfuscation instead.

hislegacy said:

We gathered as a group, perhaps 20 or so and went to war on his behalf because he was facing charges as an habitual offender (which he was) - some were praying angry prayers in tongues at the top of their lungs - screaming into the heavenliness - others were binding a variety of demons - still others were pulling down strong holds - (their words, not mine)

The next day the judge threw my pastor in jail for 11 months.

I remember wondering with all the hours of prayer and all the energy and fervency - why didn't it work? What went wrong? In the months he was incarcerated we prayed nightly for him, that his angels would protect him and as before binding the devil, warring tongues, pulling down strongholds etc. as before.

His 11 month sentence became almost two years as additional charges were racked up on him. The church, once 2,200 strong dissolved to less than 300 and then completely closed.

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Ok. There were a few statements at the end I would differ with you on, but this part I fully understand. I recall John Paul Jackson talking about this "phenomenon" for lack of a better word, and how the Lord gave him a dream about it that said much the same thing. Believers are often only asking for trouble unless it is the Lord Himself speaking through them in authority, because shouting at the Devil in the flesh only makes matters worse. It's similar to what happened with the seven sons of Sceva.

That said, I don't know how "defeated" he is in the world just yet. He most certainly suffered a defeat when the keys of Hades were taken away from him and the Old Testament saints were translated into Heaven with Him after the resurrection, but I think we still face the ongoing battle of dealing with him in the affairs of men today. But it needs to be in the Spirit, not in the flesh.

hislegacy said:

I submitt that those who do not actively wins souls, witness and share the Gospel are not even on his radar - why - they aren't doing anything anyway. my opinion.

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Paul actually specified that it was the word Satan was trying to stop, more specifically the revelations God had given him, but sharing the gospel is related to this.

hislegacy said:

The issue I have in this thread specifically is that we have a text from James 1

James 1:14 "14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
And some are actually arguing that James is not correct. I ask for clarification and it seems I instead receive obfuscation instead.

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We already went through James somewhat (though I could have gone through much more in support of what I was telling you), so I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.

God bless and thanks for the posts.
- H

You are very welcome

My apologies for taking so long - I have been in the air all day. I woke up this morning in Athens, Greece.