Doctrine of demons

Hidden In Him said:

That's because Africa is filled with witchdoctors, so they know demonic possession and demonic activity when they see it. We have our share of Satanists and witches here, however, so it's not like we are completely immune. It's just that witches aren't as much an accepted part of society here as they are there.

That said, demons hide behind human temptation and are actually the ones inciting it, so it's never really a matter of simply "acts of the flesh." They have their hand in it, it's just not as obvious here unless things get really bad.

Click to expand...

I believe possession in America takes the form of school shooters and other mass shooters and men who suddenly kill their wife and kids and then themselves, and serial killers, and people who do things like the man in Ohio who kidnapped those three girls and held them hostage for 10 years. Possession here gets lumped in with the mentally ill. Not all mentally ill people are possessed but possessed people get diagnosed as mentally ill.

tturt said:

Not addressing anyone.

Know one problem is some say "possessed" is more accurately translated "oppressed."

Click to expand...

Possession is a real thing, where the demonic has control of your will most of the time. This is not something associated with born-again Christians, especially Spirit-filled ones.

We can be oppressed, but with The Holy Spirit inside of us fighting against sin, I don't see how we could be possessed.

Agree possessed is a real thing and believers can be oppressed

tturt said:

Not addressing anyone.

Know one problem is some say "possessed" is more accurately translated "oppressed."

Click to expand...

Interesting because to me oppressed means influenced by the devil but the devil is not inside of the person and possessed means the devil actually lives inside them and controls them. Possessed is the next step from oppressed.

ARBITER01 said:

Possession is a real thing, where the demonic has control of your will most of the time. This is not something associated with born-again Christians, especially Spirit-filled ones.

We can be oppressed, but with The Holy Spirit inside of us fighting against sin, I don't see how we could be possessed.

Click to expand...

Exactly, if God's Spirit is inside of you, He is not going to share space with the devil and He is not going to let the devil inside. Now oppressed may be possible with the devil trying to influence Christians from the outside. But a truly Spirit filled Christian cannot be possessed unless he does something to grieve or offend God's Spirit and makes Him leave, then the devil may try to enter. But with God's Spirit inside of you, the devil is not getting in.

Skye1300 said:

Interesting because to me oppressed means influenced by the devil but the devil is not inside of the person and possessed means the devil actually lives inside them and controls them. Possessed is the next step from oppressed.

Click to expand...

Lester Sumrall listed 7 aspects of demonic activity in a person's life,..

Regression
Repression
Suppression
Depression
Oppression
Obsession
Possession

So yea, it's a fine line between oppression and possession.

childeye 2 said:

I believe this scripture is saying that being tempted and being drawn away are the same thing, and that the "by his own desires" is referring to the temptation being appealing to the carnal comfort of the individual being tempted. To begin with, this is all in the context of being tempted by riches according to the Worldly view of success. The actual point that is being made, is that in contrast to God, He is the Spirit in mankind that cares to the needs of others, rather than focusing on one's own comfort. Hence God does not tempt us to sin.

Click to expand...

I could see your point - interesting

ARBITER01 said:

And I apologize that you are unable to rightly divide scripture on these subjects.

It's very much a fellowship thread with everyone else, I guess your viewpoint doesn't find agreement.

Click to expand...

No need to apologize - let's address the topic of the thread and not the poster shall we?

If it were a fellowship thread, it would have been tagged as one.

Disagreements on scripture are an opportunity for open dialog and the opportunity to understand different viewpoints and personally, I welcome them -

Skye1300 said:

Exactly, if God's Spirit is inside of you, He is not going to share space with the devil and He is not going to let the devil inside. Now oppressed may be possible with the devil trying to influence Christians from the outside. But a truly Spirit filled Christian cannot be possessed unless he does something to grieve or offend God's Spirit and makes Him leave, then the devil may try to enter. But with God's Spirit inside of you, the devil is not getting in.

Click to expand...

Agree for the most part!

We are sealed with The Holy Spirit when we are born again, so I don't think He will ever leave us. We can quench His activity in and around us, but we are sealed unto the day of redemption.

tturt said:

James also said
"But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded." Jam 4:6-8

If the enemy couldn't be a problem for believers, why resist him?

Click to expand...

All of these are good points. The issue to me are semantics that occur in our psycholinguistics. Resisting the devil is not the same as being under the power of a demon. That may or may not be your point when drawing a distinction between possessed and oppressed.

hislegacy said:

Why did you smoke to begin with?

There was something about it you liked.

Why does the smell temp you today. Because there was something about it you liked.



James says it plainly. Drawn away by their own desires. That is about as plain as it gets.

Click to expand...

Well the devil is not going to tempt you with something you hate. The devil will tempt you with something you already desire. It may be something a person desires but was refraining from doing, that the's thing the devil will tempt you with. The devil preys on your weakness. His weakness was cigarettes, he gave them up and the devil came and tempted him to start again. Your weakness may be no temptation for me, my weakness may be no temptation for you. The devil watches you and knows what to tempt you with so as not to waste his time. Trying to tempt me with cigarettes is a waste of time because I can't stand cigarettes. It has to be something you already desire or it's not worth tempting you with. So you're lead away by the devil tempting you with things you already desire or used to desire.

Skye1300 said:

I believe possession in America takes the form of school shooters and other mass shooters and men who suddenly kill their wife and kids and then themselves, and serial killers, and people who do things like the man in Ohio who kidnapped those three girls and held them hostage for 10 years. Possession here gets lumped in with the mentally ill. Not all mentally ill people are possessed but possessed people get diagnosed as mentally ill.

Click to expand...

It's pretty much an acting out of the personality of that thing controlling you. The unregenerate don't have the luxury of an additional force fighting for them against such things,... so yea,... possession is becoming a greater threat to them as sin continues to grow.

Skye1300 said:

Well the devil is not going to tempt you with something you hate. The devil will tempt you with something you already desire. It may be something a person desires but was refraining from doing, that the's thing the devil will tempt you with. The devil preys on your weakness. His weakness was cigarettes, he gave them up and the devil came and tempted him to start again. Your weakness may be no temptation for me, my weakness may be no temptation for you. The devil watches you and knows what to tempt you with so as not to waste his time. Trying to tempt me with cigarettes is a waste of time because I can't stand cigarettes. It has to be something you already desire or it's not worth tempting you with. So you're lead away by the devil tempting you with things you already desire.

Click to expand...

What is you opinion on what was written in James 1 that clearly states when we are tempted it is by our own desires> James makes no mention of the devil or demons - Why do you think that is?

posted earlier -"James makes no mention of the devil or demons"

Wondering about Jam 4:7?
"Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." Jam 4:7

For non-believers:
"Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:" Eph 2:2

In years pass, sometimes serial killers and some others would say what they did was because of the devil. Of course, some would laugh at their statements. But they didn't get the help they needed.

tturt said:

"James makes no mention of the devil or demons"

Wondering about Jam 4:7?
"Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." Jam 4:7

For non-believers:
"Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:" Eph 2:2

In years pass, sometimes serial killers and some others would say what they did was because of the devil. Of course, some would laugh at their statements. But they didn't get the help they needed.

Click to expand...

Read them contextually. The verses are speaking of different things.

James 1is specifically speaking of temptation.

James 4 is not

hislegacy said:

James says it plainly. Drawn away by their own desires. That is about as plain as it gets.

Click to expand...

ἕκαστος δὲ πειράζεται ὑπὸ τῆς ἰδίας ἐπιθυμίας ἐξελκόμενος καὶ δελεαζόμενος.

ὑπὸ can be and is defined several different ways in the New Testament, and were the second half of the verse translated "by means of" or "under" it would avoid confusion. The end of the sentence reads literally as "being drawn away, and being enticed." This latter (δελεαζόμενος) in particular suggests he is talking about something outside the believer rather than something within him.

But let me ask: Do you think demons play a role in tempting human beings, or do you not believe in such things? Some do and some do not.

hislegacy said:

Read them contextually. The verses are speaking of different things.

James 1is specifically speaking of temptation.

James 4 is not

Click to expand...

Not so.

As she was trying to show you, much of the letter focuses on the influence of evil (i.e. the demonic) in tempting believers into sin. This is why he says in Chapter 3, "The tongue is a world of iniquity, setting ablaze the course of nature, itself being set on fire by Hell."

It's another allusion to the influence of the demonic, just as he states a few verses later in saying false wisdom is "not from above, but is earthly, soulish, and demonic (ἐπίγειος, ψυχική, δαιμονιώδης)."

ARBITER01 said:

Possession is a real thing, where the demonic has control of your will most of the time. This is not something associated with born-again Christians, especially Spirit-filled ones.

Click to expand...

Skye1300 said:

Interesting because to me oppressed means influenced by the devil but the devil is not inside of the person and possessed means the devil actually lives inside them and controls them. Possessed is the next step from oppressed.

Click to expand...

About this, I believe a Christian (i.e. a real one, truly born again) can fully transition back over to the other side if he fully decides to, but this again goes back to one's beliefs on the matter of free will. It's why I referenced taking a Calvinistic view towards the gifts in a previous post.

But I believe it is possible for a believer to completely give him or herself over to evil if they are foolish enough to after getting saved. Their will is still their own, and so is their fate.

Hidden In Him said:

About this, I believe a Christian (i.e. a real one, truly born again) can fully transition back over to the other side if he fully decides to, but this again goes back to one's beliefs on the matter of free will. It's why I referenced taking a Calvinistic view towards the gifts in a previous post.

But I believe it is possible for a believer to completely give him or herself over to evil if they are foolish enough to after getting saved. Their will is still their own, and so is their fate.

Click to expand...

It would be better termed betrayal.

One only has to look at satan and his perfection, and then how he betrayed GOD,... so in that sense, it is somewhat possible for a full on believer to betray GOD also,.... but we wouldn't find such things like that to be common, in fact it would be quite rare for someone to be that fooled after knowing the truth.

But in such a case, they have no way back.

I think these are the verses dealing with betrayal,..

Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 A man that hath set aside Moses' law dieth without compassion on [the word of] two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 of how much severer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath outraged the Spirit of grace?

ARBITER01 said:

I think these are the verses dealing with betrayal,..

Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 A man that hath set aside Moses' law dieth without compassion on [the word of] two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 of how much severer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath outraged the Spirit of grace?

Click to expand...

I do as well.