Doctrine of demons

ByTheSpirit

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So probably not what you think the question is, but I'm curious. If someone you know was ministering to other people and then it later was revealed the one ministering had a demon, how would you view such an event and the group/denomination that supported them?
 

SavedByGrace3

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Well, having dealt with Churches and demon casting for 49 years, I would say it is par for the course.
I believe demonized and demon oppressed people are more common than not. It, I think, goes along with the culture we live in. Lots of prayer and fasting is needed all round. That does not mean the ministering is invalid. The church just needs some cleaning up.
 
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Skye1300

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So probably not what you think the question is, but I'm curious. If someone you know was ministering to other people and then it later was revealed the one ministering had a demon, how would you view such an event and the group/denomination that supported them?

Do you mean like a preacher who turned out to be possessed?
 
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tturt

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Understand the concern but God still moves, heals, saves.

The doctrine of demons is teachings that aren't based on Scripture

As Savedbygrace said church needs some cleaning up.

5 of the 7 churches in Rev 2-3 were told to repent

- church of Ephesus -they had many positives but were loveless
- church in Smyrna - they weren't rebuked by God
- church in Pergamos - located in satan's city, they compromised
- church in Thyatira - an adulterous church
- church in Sardis - were busy but God said they were dead - nothing positive said about them while all the others had positives
- church in Philadelphia - they were faithful
- church of the Laodiceans - a lukewarm church

Of course, we're to learn from their mistakes.
 
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ByTheSpirit

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Understand the concern but God still moves, heals, saves.

The doctrine of demons is teachings that aren't based on Scripture

As Savedbygrace said church needs some cleaning up.

5 of the 7 churches in Rev 2-3 were told to repent

- church of Ephesus -they had many positives but were loveless
- church in Smyrna - they weren't rebuked by God
- church in Pergamos - located in satan's city, they compromised
- church in Thyatira - an adulterous church
- church in Sardis - were busy but God said they were dead - nothing positive said about them while all the others had positives
- church in Philadelphia - they were faithful
- church of the Laodiceans - a lukewarm church

Of course, we're to learn from their mistakes.
Does repentance equate to needing deliverance from possession though?
 
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ByTheSpirit

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Well, having dealt with Churches and demon casting for 49 years, I would say it is par for the course.
I believe demonized and demon oppressed people are more common than not. It, I think, goes along with the culture we live in. Lots of prayer and fasting is needed all round. That does not mean the ministering is invalid. The church just needs some cleaning up.

So in your experience it is possible for someone to be Spirit Filled and possessed under the influence of demons still?

I'm not goading I promise I'm legitimately curious about this. Thank you for your response
 
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Skye1300

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Oh okay, I don't think it's possible for a possessed person to be able to preach and say good things about God and the Bible even if he is faking. Now a normal person who's faking and preaching just for attention or money can do it, but a possessed person? No. No demon can stand to ever say anything good about God and the Bible or lead people to Christ. No way.
 
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Hidden In Him

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So probably not what you think the question is, but I'm curious. If someone you know was ministering to other people and then it later was revealed the one ministering had a demon, how would you view such an event and the group/denomination that supported them?


Given your thread title, if you are asking would it cause me to backtrack and scrutinize the things they might have taught, yes. Just for safety's sake, I would take it into consideration. I would not dismiss what they had taught as a whole, however, nor any of it necessarily just based on that fact alone. It could be that they had fully embraced the truth even though they nevertheless struggled with some particular sin and/or demon, and had not yet been able to get free of it.

What is your specific instance?
 
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ByTheSpirit

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Given your thread title, if you are asking would it cause me to backtrack and scrutinize the things they might have taught, yes. Just for safety's sake, I would take it into consideration. I would not dismiss what they had taught as a whole, however, nor any of it necessarily just based on that fact alone. It could be that they had fully embraced the truth even though they nevertheless struggled with some particular sin and/or demon, and had not yet been able to get free of it.

What is your specific instance?

I know this guy who does street ministry quite often, but admittedly in the past dealt with witchcraft, black magic, and a lot of dark arts stuff.

So I'm at this event with him now and he is manifesting demons, specifically serpent like behavior and it was not cast out of him. I'm just curious about such things.

To me from scripture it doesn't seem likely that someone can have the Holy Spirit and a demon simultaneously but I'm willing to have an open mind here.
 
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Hidden In Him

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To me from scripture it doesn't seem likely that someone can have the Holy Spirit and a demon simultaneously but I'm willing to have an open mind here.

Be under the influence of both simultaneously, no. They will either be following the leading of one or the other.

Let me say this: The question I think you are trying to answer is, if a person is baptized in the Holy Spirit will it of necessity cleanse every part of them, i.e. every area of their heart, from demonic influence. I honestly don't think it happens that way. I take outpourings and infillings as just that, outpourings and infillings. During a time of outpouring the Spirit will dominate the person's actions, heart and thoughts. But as you know, the Spirit of God can be grieved and can also be quenched, and once it is quenched whatever has not been cleansed that was evil may start rising to the surface again.

I think many think in terms of absolutes - sort of like applying Calvinist thinking to the Holy Spirit - but I don't see it that way. James wrote to the early church less than 15 years after Pentecost, and in his letter he warned:

1 My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. 2 For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body. 3 Indeed, we put bits in horses’ mouths that they may obey us, and we turn their whole body. 4 Look also at ships: although they are so large and are driven by fierce winds, they are turned by a very small rudder wherever the pilot desires. 5 Even so the tongue is a little member and boasts great things.

See how great a forest a little fire kindles! 6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. The tongue is so set among our members that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire by hell. 7 For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and creature of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by mankind. 8 But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. 9 With it we bless our God and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the similitude of God. 10 Out of the same mouth proceed blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be so. 11 Does a spring send forth fresh water and bitter from the same opening? 12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Thus no spring yields both salt water and fresh.

13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic.

This was written to Spirit-filled people. When he asked, "Does a spring send forth fresh water and bitter from the same opening? 12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs?" the teaching was not that it was impossible (as the context bears out, given he was implying that a believer can let demonically-inspired words come out of his mouth), but rather that it was unnatural; that we are born of a holy nature, so it would be unnatural to allow something unholy to come from a holy source. But again, the context suggests he is saying that this can indeed happen, and we must not allow it to.

I don't know your friend, but it sounds like he's the real deal, only the spirits that empowered his witchcraft have not been fully dealt with yet, and need to be. Reminds me of Simon the magician, who clearly still had his demons as well, given that Peter warned him, "I perceive that you are [still] subject to the poison of bitterness, and the bond of iniquity." The man still had his demons and had not dealt with them.

Pray for him. It's not always easy cleansing the soul and spirit completely, and for some it takes many years, especially if the demons he allowed in before coming to Christ were exceptionally powerful, and ones he very much was at home with and not wanting to part with completely.
 
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Original Happy Camper

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possible for someone to be Spirit Filled and possessed under the influence of demons still?

if that is the case then it is the wrong "spirit filled" that is on board
 
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Hidden In Him

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To me from scripture it doesn't seem likely that someone can have the Holy Spirit and a demon simultaneously but I'm willing to have an open mind here.

Let me give you something else.

Remember when Jesus told the adulteress to go and sin no more? There is a passage where He was teaching on the casting out of demons and said the following:

24 “When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ 25 And when he comes, he finds it swept and put in order. 26 Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first.”

Jesus stating that a house could be "swept and put in order" was in the context of giving a teaching on exorcism after the Pharisees accused Him of casting out demons by the power of Beelzebub. This means that demons can re-enter a soul that was once possessed but was then cleansed through exorcism. Granted, the infilling with the Holy Spirit is not necessarily referenced here, simply that demons were cast out, but the implication is that there is a fluidity that takes place in the soul, and if demons can once fill the soul, be cast out, but then refill the soul later, then the same applies to the Holy Spirit, and I personally believe that one can swing from one end of the pendulum all the way to the other if they have not been fully cleansed despite being baptized in the Holy Spirit.
 
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Hidden In Him

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Remember when Jesus told the adulteress to go and sin no more?

Sorry, I was actually referring to the man with the infirmity at the pool of Bethesda, whom Jesus healed in Luke 5.

My implication was that demons were behind his ailment, though that was an assumption on my part and may not actually apply. His teaching on the swept house does, however.
 
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ByTheSpirit

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Let me give you something else.

Remember when Jesus told the adulteress to go and sin no more? There is a passage where He was teaching on the casting out of demons and said the following:

24 “When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ 25 And when he comes, he finds it swept and put in order. 26 Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first.”

Jesus stating that a house could be "swept and put in order" was in the context of giving a teaching on exorcism after the Pharisees accused Him of casting out demons by the power of Beelzebub. This means that demons can re-enter a soul that was once possessed but was then cleansed through exorcism. Granted, the infilling with the Holy Spirit is not necessarily referenced here, simply that demons were cast out, but the implication is that there is a fluidity that takes place in the soul, and if demons can once fill the soul, be cast out, but then refill the soul later, then the same applies to the Holy Spirit, and I personally believe that one can swing from one end of the pendulum all the way to the other if they have not been fully cleansed despite being baptized in the Holy Spirit.
Interesting thoughts thank you
 
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hislegacy

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I remember I had a conversation a number of years ago with Pierre du Plessis, the grandson of David du Plessis.

He moved to the United States from South Africa and we had the opportunity to settle and have a meal together they asked me something very interesting.

He said I’ve been dealing with the daemonic forces all my life in South Africa, I’ve dealt with witchcraft I’ve dealt with voodoo I’ve dealt with demonic oppression.

I’m just wondering where all these demons are in the United States? I asked him what he meant by that. I remember his answer for the rest of my life.

He said 90% of white Americans call demonic oppression is nothing more than acts of the flesh . Do they not know the difference?

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
 
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Hidden In Him

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He moved to the United States from South Africa and we had the opportunity to settle and have a meal together they asked me something very interesting.

He said I’ve been dealing with the daemonic forces all my life in South Africa, I’ve dealt with witchcraft I’ve dealt with voodoo I’ve dealt with demonic oppression.

I’m just wondering where all these demons are in the United States? I asked him what he meant by that. I remember his answer for the rest of my life.

He said 90% of white Americans call demonic oppression is nothing more than acts of the flesh . Do they not know the difference?

That's because Africa is filled with witchdoctors, so they know demonic possession and demonic activity when they see it. We have our share of Satanists and witches here, however, so it's not like we are completely immune. It's just that witches aren't as much an accepted part of society here as they are there.

That said, demons hide behind human temptation and are actually the ones inciting it, so it's never really a matter of simply "acts of the flesh." They have their hand in it, it's just not as obvious here unless things get really bad.
 
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Disciple_mike

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So probably not what you think the question is, but I'm curious. If someone you know was ministering to other people and then it later was revealed the one ministering had a demon, how would you view such an event and the group/denomination that supported them?
there is a difference between a person having an evil spirit / demon indwelling their flesh body alongside their own spirit within that same body .. and a person "teaching " demonic things .
doctrines ,or teaching of devils is when a persons life ,via sin and disobedience to god has allowed their mind and morals to be corrupts and has sought ,either for their own gain or to appease their troubled conscience ,self gratifying justification for their sin and disobedience or gain and ,influenced by the evil spirit, begins to TEACH things that are at discord with the truth in an insidious manner -Working or spreading harmfully in a subtle or stealthy manner. Intended to entrap; treacherous. Beguiling but harmful; alluring. a teaching that become pleasing and comfortable to the carnal mind and appeases the senses or is comforting to the carnal senses . feeling comfortable but leading ultimately to deep deception and hell fire .

in contrast a person can have a devil reside in their flesh body and yet Not teach falsehood or allow that spirit to influence them to speak out false teachings but influence them in other way such as inexplicable depressions and associate illness etc . so i think its not a thing we can judge by saying .. when they get set free from that interloper ,, of that person had a devil in them so we must discredit all they taught . but rather ... make the judgement of "what they taught " ..judge what they taught .

as we are supposed to do.
anyone filed with the holy Spirit and walking in the Spirit obeying Jesus will have experienced ..when a man is teaching and it sounds good , Yet , there is something undefinably off in what he is saying ,like a many stringed instrument with one string out of tune .THAT is the holy Spirit telling you .. that person is teaching a falsehood , no matter how good it sounds . look deeper it is a false teaching a teaching of devils . they are insidious at first but as time goes on they become bland and blatant . but not at first . they beguile first like the serpent in the garden .LISTEN to the Holy sprit .. he is the conduit by which Jesus speaks to us telling us .. this person is preaching a falsehood ..your being lied to .

If we don't listen to the lord Jesus ,we will become so accustomed to hearing the lie we wont know we are hearing it any more .A simple example is most of the teaching on tithing every Sunday. Or teaching that portray a pastor someone who must be unquestioningly obeyed... things people are so accustomed to hearing they no longer hear they are being lied to .
 
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So probably not what you think the question is, but I'm curious. If someone you know was ministering to other people and then it later was revealed the one ministering had a demon, how would you view such an event and the group/denomination that supported them?

Christians are not immune from demonic oppression, we live through it most of our lives. Demonic "possession" on the other hand, I don't think is possible since we are sealed with The Holy Spirit.

The unregenerate are able to have their will taken over by demonic forces, I don't see that happening with us.
 
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Disciple_mike

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I know this guy who does street ministry quite often, but admittedly in the past dealt with witchcraft, black magic, and a lot of dark arts stuff.

So I'm at this event with him now and he is manifesting demons, specifically serpent like behavior and it was not cast out of him. I'm just curious about such things.

To me from scripture it doesn't seem likely that someone can have the Holy Spirit and a demon simultaneously but I'm willing to have an open mind here.
in this comment you raise an often debated question.. can a Christian have a devil in them . the answer is YES and NO .its all perception.. a Christian is not a human body ..it is a born again spirit of the seed of Jesus, a new creation.. living inside a corrupted flesh body . so i explain it as such -
a spirit cannot have a spirit in it so a Christian who is a spirit cannot have a devil.. but the body(tent) in which he dwells certainly can .

how did it get there... unrepentant sin .unforgiveness .. which is unrepentant sin - basically- through Sin
 
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