How does one receive salvation?

sawdust · Jul 14, 2022

Ligurian said:
Revelation 2:2-7 thou hast left thy first love
Revelation 2:8-11 be thou faithful unto death
Revelation 2:12-17 the doctrine of Balaam
Revelation 2:18-29 kill her children with Death.
Revelation 3:1-6 a name that thou livest and art dead.
Revelation 3:7-13 hold that fast which thou hast
Revelation 3:14-22 buy of Me gold tried in the fire

Ligurian said:
That's not the destruction of works, but a destruction of people.

1 Corinthians 3:10-15, 1 Corinthians 2:2

You are using a different dictionary than the dictionary I am using.

Ok, now I get where you're coming from however, I don't see why you think it is the destruction of people especially, as you point out, Christ says "I know your works" and then proceeds to tell them what those works are ie leaving your first love; adhering to the teaching of Balaam; being lukewarm etc. Obviously, these things are not empowerd by God unlike those whom the Lord commends. I'm sure you don't believe we can live the Christian life in our own strength. Only God's grace can produce what His love requires.

These letters are written to first century Churches that were having the problems mentioned, as well as the successes. They act as representative of what can happen in any local Church in any given generation from their time, up until the time of the Resurrection of the Church. As they are all physically dead now (winners and losers alike), they were not "dragged into the tribulation" and destroyed.

What I find ironic is that you quote 1 Cor.3:10-15 which actually states the person who is a lousy builder will be saved even though all they built (works) will be destroyed.

10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

SabbathBlessings · Jul 14, 2022

sawdust said:
Here's a command. I wonder how many believers know how to obey the last part?

Ephesians 5:18
And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit,

Then why are you emphasizing obedience in a thread that is asking the question of "how do we receive salvation?"

This is why I keep having a problem with what you say. It gives the impression you think that if we are not all good boys and girls and do exactly what Daddy says at all times, we will not be saved. That simply is not true. There are believers who will utterly shipwreck their faith (1 Tim.1:19&20) yet will still be saved. (1 Cor.3:15) They will end up miserable in this life because they will be constantly under discipline (Heb.12:6) until the day they die (if necessary) (1 Jn.5:16) but they are still saved.

We can definitely agree the Lord wants as transformed from the inside and if we hide the word in our hearts and are transformed by His grace, we will keep His commands because it has become the natural thing to do. We no longer have to "stop and think" about what is right, we just do it. We are not simply the "new man in Christ" positionally, we become the new man experientially by grace through faith.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

I’m not sure if you noticed this, but you never really address the scriptures in my post. If you did, I don’t think this is the response that I would have received back. The Bible definition of love to God is obedience to His commandments. 1 John 5:3, John 14:15, Exodus 20:6. It always surprises me that people argue over keeping His commandments, when He is our Creator, and we would have nothing without Him and what He asks for is so little in comparison.

The scriptures, God’s Word stresses obedience to God which is found throughout the entire bible. We became separated from God by disobedience and the whole bible is how we can be back in the presence of God. One of the very last scriptures before the Revelation of Jesus Christ says “Blessed are those who do His commandments, they may enter into the gates of heaven Revelation 22:14 and warning who is left outside Revelation 22:15. So it’s not “me” saying we should obey God’s commandments, it’s God.

sawdust said:
It gives the impression you think that if we are not all good boys and girls and do exactly what Daddy says at all times, we will not be saved.

What does Jesus say- Jesus cannot lie, so we should believe His warnings.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness. Sin is the transgression of God’s law (lawlessness). 1 John 3:4. What the law does is point out sin so we know not what to do. Paul tells us this giving and example right from the Ten Commandments. Romans 7:7.

Sin is not just defined by what we think is right or wrong, it is breaking God’s law.

So what does a thread on salvation have to do with obedience to God. Everything. It is a fruit of a saved person. Revelation 14:12. It’s not how we are saved, but it shows you have been transformed by God’s Word.

While we are saved by God’s sweet grace, many skip over the fact we will be judged first and we are judged based on the commandments of God. James 2:10-12 which says you break one of the commandments of God you break them all. The Ten Commandments are in the ark of the Covenant in the Most Holy in the Temple of God under the mercy seat where Jesus dwells. Revelation 11:19. God’s sanctuary is worth spending some time studying because everything in His sanctuary is symbolic and shows us the way to salvation. Psalm 77:13 Your way, O God, is in the sanctuary;

Everyone has sinned and falls short, but with the power of Jesus Christ we can turn from our sin and walk in obedience to Him, Jesus gives us he Holy Spirit to do so. John 14:15-18, Acts 5:32. If we slip and fall we have a Savior who is just and willing to forgive us when we repent. True repentance means we have a changed heart and want to turn from sin. Regardless how many one falls, Jesus wants to forgive us when we confess and repent, but through Jesus Christ we can gain victory over sin. It’s the other spirit that tells us we can’t so stop trying. 1 John 3:8

SabbathBlessings · Jul 14, 2022

Neogaia777 said:
You do not see yourself, so you don't see God, so He is hidden from your eyes, etc...

God Bless!

I’m sorry you feel that way and you are free to believe what you want. Only God knows our heart so its best to let Him be the judge of people. I will be judged the same way we all will and I only share the scriptures out of love. The message that we do not need to be obedient to God is not one that comes from scripture. There are many scriptures some want to pretend are not in God’s Word, but there are in there and obedience to God is not just a small theme in scripture, its an important one that runs throughout the whole bible. Paul puts it this way: keeping the commandments of God is what matters. 1 Cor 7:19

This is what Jesus in His own words said about those who teach others to not keep the commandments quoting directly from the Ten Commandments. Matthew 5:19-30.

Matthew 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven

Jesus wants us to teach each other to keep the commandments. Why? Because it’s important. Most churches teach you do not need to obey God’s commandments, which is a direct contradiction to the Word of God and breaks the greatest commandments of loving God with all our hearts. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments 1 John 5:3. The whole bible works in harmony and its a balance of love, faith, belief and obedience to God (His terms). Many want to disregard that last one for some reason.

Take care.

SabbathBlessings · Jul 14, 2022

Ligurian said:
Of course they're good Scriptures, but that's not the point.
Those who don't keep His Commandments don't even love Him... kind of a shocking thing, but there it is.
It's not just that the merciful will receive mercy, Matthew 5:7.

I didn’t know what your point was to be honest because you provided no context to the scriptures you posted , but some of them was on the same scripture topic I was sharing.

Jesus is merciful and long suffering that why He is so willing to forgive us when we slip and fall and repent. What God does not want for His children is to live in perpetual sin without repentance. We should try to walk the Christian life daily and daily we need to overcome.

Romans 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

SabbathBlessings · Jul 14, 2022

Neogaia777 said:
Neither do those who claim to keep all the commandments perfectly always, but do not always, which is your third category @SabbathBlessings, etc...

And Jesus had a lot to say about these ones also, etc, and seemed to like them a whole heck of a lot less than those who would admit to not being able to always fully follow them fully and perfectly always, but don't ever quit trying, etc...

God hates liars and hypocrites more than almost any other kind or group or sin, etc...

So, are you lying to God right now...?

Or do you ever, etc...?

Because I am not and don't ever, etc...

And neither do I or am I ever lying to myself anymore either, which is another thing God absolutely hates, etc...

So are any of you maybe also lying to yourselves sometimes or maybe right now also...?

Because I am not and don't now anymore, etc...

But, are you, etc...?

Yes or No...?

God Bless!

Maybe you can quote me where I have ever said I do not sin. What I do or don’t do is between God and I and has nothing really to do with what anyone else does or does not do, because we won’t be judged based on what others do or not do. We all have to stand in front of Jesus come judgement day. 2 Corinthians 5:10

I am a sinner, just like all of us and I have an Advocate in Jesus, just like we all do when I confess my sins to Jesus I know He will forgive me, because He said so. 1 John 1:9. It’s a beautiful promise. I also know Jesus wants us to gain victory over sin which we can do through His power. He promises we don’t have to obey by ourselves but it does require our effort. James 1:22, John 14:15-18, Acts 5:32. The commandments just points out sin so we know what we should and should not do. Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7 James 2:10-12

God bless

Ligurian · Jul 14, 2022

Neogaia777 said:
Ligurian said:

Those who don't keep His Commandments don't even love Him... kind of a shocking thing, but there it is.

Click to expand...

Neither do those who claim to keep all the commandments perfectly always, but do not always, which is your third category @SabbathBlessings, etc...

I don't think you're talking to me about this.

Ligurian · Jul 14, 2022

Ligurian said:
Of course they're good Scriptures, but that's not the point.
Those who don't keep His Commandments don't even love Him... kind of a shocking thing, but there it is.
It's not just that the merciful will receive mercy, Matthew 5:7.

SabbathBlessings said:
I didn’t know what your point was to be honest because you provided no context to the scriptures you posted , but some of them was on the same scripture topic I was sharing.

Jesus is merciful and long suffering that why He is so willing to forgive us when we slip and fall and repent.

Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him?

Matthew 18:21-22 Then came Peter to Him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
[22] Ιησους saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

Matthew 18:23-35 Therefore is the Kingdom of Heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.[24] And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.[25] But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
[26] The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
[27] Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
[28] But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.[29] And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.[30] And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
[31] So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.[32] Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:[33] Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?[34] And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
[35] So likewise shall my Heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

You get what you give, in spades.

Matthew 5:21-23 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:[22] But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.[23] Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee,[24] leave there thy gift before the altar and go thy way: First be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

Matthew 6:9-15 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in Heaven, Hallowed be Thy name.[10] Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done in Earth, as it is in Heaven.[11] Give us this day our daily bread.[12] And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.[13] And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the Kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
[14] For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your Heavenly Father will also forgive you.[15] But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Matthew 5:7 Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

James 5:16 Confess [your] faults one to another

It's obviously not only the Messiah to whom one needs to repent, and from whom one needs forgiveness.
The one who was injured by you, you need to apologize to.

SabbathBlessings · Jul 14, 2022

Ligurian said:
Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him?

Matthew 18:21-22 Then came Peter to Him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
[22] Ιησους saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

Matthew 18:23-35 Therefore is the Kingdom of Heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.[24] And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.[25] But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
[26] The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
[27] Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
[28] But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.[29] And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.[30] And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
[31] So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.[32] Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:[33] Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?[34] And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
[35] So likewise shall my Heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

You get what you give, in spades.

Matthew 5:21-23 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:[22] But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.[23] Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee,[24] leave there thy gift before the altar and go thy way: First be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

Matthew 6:9-15 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in Heaven, Hallowed be Thy name.[10] Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done in Earth, as it is in Heaven.[11] Give us this day our daily bread.[12] And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.[13] And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the Kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
[14] For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your Heavenly Father will also forgive you.[15] But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Matthew 5:7 Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

James 5:16 Confess [your] faults one to another

It's obviously not only the Messiah to whom one needs to repent, and from whom one needs forgiveness.
The one who was injured by you, you need to apologize to.

Agree and I never stated otherwise.

Ligurian · Jul 14, 2022

sawdust said:
Ok, now I get where you're coming from however, I don't see why you think it is the destruction of people especially, as you point out, Christ says "I know your works" and then proceeds to tell them what those works are ie leaving your first love; adhering to the teaching of Balaam; being lukewarm etc.
[...]
What I find ironic is that you quote 1 Cor.3:10-15

I made that quote to point out the obvious-to-me contrasts between the two systems.

My dictionary comes from the Gospel of the Kingdom given to the circumcision.
But your dictionary comes from Paul's gospel given to the uncircumcision. So using one dictionary to define the workings of the other gospel simply doesn't work... not without changing the inherent meanings within the separate gospels.

And yes, I know most people don't take the Bible as literally as it was written, so they don't see Galatians 2:7 telling them plainly that Paul taught one gospel to the circumcision, while Peter taught another gospel to the circumcision. Even though the chapters before and after that verse make it obvious. Paul is so plainly referencing Peter's gospel in Galatians 3, that only those who don't want to believe it won't see it. But those who keep the Gospel of the Kingdom will.

Because Peter's circumcision was taught that Gospel which the Messiah taught: the good news of the Kingdom... from the time John the baptizer went to prison. And it was taught specifically to the 10-lost-tribes in Galilee. As Matthew 10:5-7 tells us, this Gospel never went to the gentiles or even the Samaritans. And that mission-field never changed, because when the Risen Lord returned in His glorified body, He told the remaining 11 to disciple, within the nations, with the very same Commandments which He had given to them in Galilee. What's called the Great Commission is none other than the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, scattered among the nations.

But not to the House of Judah, which was still separate, according to John 7:1, and the Prophets. So when Paul says there is no difference between gentiles and Jews, he's saying it from his position of having been grafted into the House of Judah, via the divided kingdom of Solomon verses. And so Paul went to these Judahite/Jews when he went to the gentiles... preaching the gospel of grace. Which is entirely separate from the Kingdom's works of the Law given in the Sermon on the Mount from Matthew 5--Matthew 7.

These two gospels only ever seem to touch within the books of Luke and Acts... and maybe Galatians... where this strange confusion of names before us today could easily be avoided, if people only would look at Luke's 70 apostles... and then realize that the names James, Joses, Joseph, Simon, Peter, Cephas, John, etc., were not the name of one man only. ... ... There were duplicates even within the 12 Disciples... how much more so within the Bible-lands, at large? To think anything else would be to believe that the 11 Disciples of Galilee became completely apostate... returned to Jerusalem (from Galilee) where their Lord had only just been martyred... to preach to people who would also want THEM dead. Nor were they TOLD to hang around Jerusalem... but to go into the nations over which the Risen Lord now had authority.

If any apostles were hanging around Jerusalem, then they must have been Luke's 70... and so THEY were the people that Paul went to see upon his return from Arabia. We're even told by Luke that Barnabas was an apostle, so he must have used that influence to go get Saul and introduce him to Luke's other 69 apostles. Not only that, but the parables alone would have kept the 11 Disciples far, far away from Judea and the Pharisees.

And to all of that, even more points must be made.

(1)(a) Paul received his gospel by revelation. (b) But the 12 Disciples were pupils, learners, children in school... gradually adding precept to precept. (c) Not all disciples are Ιησους Disciples; John the baptizer had disciples, and so did the Pharisees.
(2)(a) Paul is called the Apostle to the gentiles. (b) The 12 Disciples were only called Apostles when they were sent (which is the meaning of the word apostle); the rest of the time they're called Ιησους Disciples.
(3)(a) Acts 15:20 tells the only burden placed upon the gentiles. (b) The burden of the Laws of the Sermon on the Mount is given to the circumcision.
(4)(a) The gospel of grace has faith as the only vehicle by which the Holy Spirit is given. (b) The Gospel of the Kingdom has Commandments-kept as the one vehicle by which the Holy Spirit is received.

sawdust · Jul 14, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
It’s not how we are saved, but it shows you have been transformed by God’s Word.

But that was my point. This thread is about how we receive salvation NOT how we are transformed by the salvation we have been given.

SabbathBlessings said:
I’m not sure if you noticed this, but you never really address the scriptures in my post.

Just as you never address mine and the reason being I don't address yours is, your verses have to do with being transformed, not about receiving salvation as I noted above. Have you looked at the one lesson I asked you to? Are you hearing it? The question is rhetorical, please don't answer. You say (your words) "you don't have eternal life" now. Yet I showed you the verse that says the Lord Jesus Christ gives us (present tense) eternal life when we believe.

SabbathBlessings said:
The Bible definition of love to God is obedience to His commandments.

Has it ever occurred to you that not all believers actually love God? I see you are married, did you love your spouse the second you met them? You may have had an emotional and/or chemical response, what we call "love at first sight", but it is not agape love. That requires time to get to know the person. In the same way, we don't know the Lord the moment we believe except that He is the Saviour of our souls and we delight in that. Then eventually the honeymoon is over (as they say) and we begin to learn some truths. At first aren't so hard, really quite encouraging if they are taught right Heb.6:1-3, but as we go further along we begin to realise some things are completely unpalatable. Many believers drift off course at this point. They take up doctrines that are not true or stop taking in doctrine altogether, yet they are still God's child for He is never sorry about giving us eternal life and therefore does not take it back Rom.11:29. Their transformation comes to a sudden stop unless they repent from the lies (false doctrine) and turn back to the truth, confess and are forgiven and restored to fellowship (filled with the Spirit). Our failure as onlookers in many of these instances, because the believer doesn't live up to our standards of what is required, we assume they were never saved or have lost their salvation. That is simply not true. If it were, the Lord would not discipline them because they would no longer be His children. You don't discipline other people's children.

You want me to address the verses you quoted? Ok.

1 John 5:3
In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

John 14:15
“If you love me, keep my commands."

What both of these verses are saying is, if (maybe, maybe not) you have grown in your faith (ie. become Christ like enough) that you are developing love as a character trait (fruit of the Spirit) then you will naturally hold and keep His commands and they will not be a burden. You won't have to work at keeping His commands for they will flow naturally out from your love for God. This push to "obey commands" in order to work out one's salvation is detrimental, even ludicrous, especially to new believers or one who has drifted far off track. You don't give a baby household chores to do, first you make them secure in your love and teaching them to be responsible as they grow, according to their capacity. (1 Cor.3:2; Heb.5:11-13)

You set aside the seventh day of the week as a Sabbath because the Lord commanded it. I come to the Lord because He said I could and find rest. Every day is a sabbath for me because The Lord Jesus Christ is my rest. He is my Sabbath! I neither want for or need anything or anyone else.

Matthew 11:28
“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.

May the grace and peace of the Lord be with you.

sawdust · Jul 14, 2022

Ligurian said:
And yes, I know most people don't take the Bible as literally as it was written, so they don't see Galatians 2:7 telling them plainly that Paul taught one gospel to the circumcision, while Peter taught another gospel to the circumcision.

Galations 2:7&8
But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles),

Only one Gospel, not another Gospel. Paul is saying that he is the Apostle appointed to take the Gospel to the Gentiles and Peter is the apostle appointed to take the Gospel to the Jews.

And to back this up, even before Paul was appointed, Peter was the first to take the Gospel to a Gentile and realised that what Christ did for the Jews, He did for the Gentiles as well for they both received the same gift of the Holy Spirit. It is also why Paul would say there is neither Jew nor Greek in Christ. (Gal.3:28)

Acts 10:47
“Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

One Gospel for the whole world.

SabbathBlessings · Jul 14, 2022

sawdust said:
But that was my point. This thread is about how we receive salvation NOT how we are transformed by the salvation we have been given.

If we don't have a transformation (Accepting Jesus Christ as our personal savior, repenting from our sins , baptism and walking in newness with Christ) there is no scripture saying we have salvation, so you're slicing hairs in my opinion.

sawdust said:
Just as you never address mine and the reason being I don't address yours is, your verses have to do with being transformed, not about receiving salvation as I noted above. Have you looked at the one lesson I asked you to? Are you hearing it? The question is rhetorical, please don't answer. You say (your words) "you don't have eternal life" now. Yet I showed you the verse that says the Lord Jesus Christ gives us (present tense) eternal life when we believe.

I have addressed the scriptures you posted and like I pointed out there was context left out. If you believe in God- how could one not believe in what God stands for and not follow what God asks? That sounds like an oxymoron. The devil believes in God, so belief is another big word that many try to compound down. No one has received eternal life yet, because judgement day has not happened. Judgement we are told is on the "last day" John 12:48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him— the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day. Which is why we are told: But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:13

sawdust said:
Has it ever occurred to you that not all believers actually love God?

Absolutely, unfortunately probably a lot.

sawdust said:
I see you are married, did you love your spouse the second you met them? You may have had an emotional and/or chemical response, what we call "love at first sight", but it is not agape love. That requires time to get to know the person. In the same way, we don't know the Lord the moment we believe except that He is the Saviour of our souls and we delight in that. Then eventually the honeymoon is over (as they say) and we begin to learn some truths. At first aren't so hard, really quite encouraging if they are taught right Heb.6:1-3, but as we go further along we begin to realise some things are completely unpalatable. Many believers drift off course at this point. They take up doctrines that are not true or stop taking in doctrine altogether, yet they are still God's child for He is never sorry about giving us eternal life and therefore does not take it back Rom.11:29. Their transformation comes to a sudden stop unless they repent from the lies (false doctrine) and turn back to the truth, confess and are forgiven and restored to fellowship (filled with the Spirit). Our failure as onlookers in many of these instances, because the believer doesn't live up to our standards of what is required, we assume they were never saved or have lost their salvation. That is simply not true. If it were, the Lord would not discipline them because they would no longer be His children. You don't discipline other people's children.

Sorry, your not making a lot of sense. Are you saying when the children of God disobey and don't repent, they will still be saved? Perhaps you can find the scripture that says we can be saved with unrepented sin. It is not God's will that anyone be lost, God wants to save everyone, but He is not going to force someone to love Him, or force them to obey His commandments or to have faith etc. Jesus never let's go of us, but He won't force us to not let go of Him.

sawdust said:
You want me to address the verses you quoted? Ok.

1 John 5:3
In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

John 14:15
“If you love me, keep my commands."

What both of these verses are saying is, if (maybe, maybe not) you have grown in your faith (ie. become Christ like enough) that you are developing love as a character trait (fruit of the Spirit) then you will naturally hold and keep His commands and they will not be a burden. You won't have to work at keeping His commands for they will flow naturally out from your love for God. This push to "obey commands" in order to work out one's salvation is detrimental, even ludicrous, especially to new believers or one who has drifted far off track. You don't give a baby household chores to do, first you make them secure in your love and teaching them to be responsible as they grow, according to their capacity. (1 Cor.3:2; Heb.5:11-13)

I think what both the scriptures are saying is exactly what it means. Its very clear and to the point.

Yes, we are all on different walks in our faith, but at some point, Jesus wants us to go from milk to solid food meaning as we accept Jesus Christ, it shouldn't stop there. We should search the scripture to find what is God's will for us and that is revealed through the scriptures. I have already stated we are not saved by "works" we can't work our way to heaven, but if we are seeking Truth in the scriptures which is what God calls us to do John 4:23-24 through our relationship with Jesus we should start turning over our will and replace it with the will of God, through our relationship with Jesus our thoughts and actions will be changed. Through our relationship we will want to obey the commandments of God, which of course include all Ten of the Commandments of God, not just nine. Exodus 34:28, James 2:10-12, Matthew 5:19-30

sawdust said:
You set aside the seventh day of the week as a Sabbath because the Lord commanded it. I come to the Lord because He said I could and find rest. Every day is a sabbath for me because The Lord Jesus Christ is my rest. He is my Sabbath! I neither want for or need anything or anyone else.

Matthew 11:28
“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.

May the grace and peace of the Lord be with you.

I set aside the seventh day Sabbath and keep it holy because God commanded us to do so. Exodus 20:8-11, Isaiah 58:13. Its a bit odd you recognize the Lord did so, but you come across like its a bad thing to obey God.

The Ten Commandments are not multiple choice. Matthew 11:28 does not say you do not have to keep the Sabbath commandment, nor does it say that Jesus is the Sabbath or the Sabbath is everyday Exodus 20:10 this is not biblical. We are told clearly work six days Exodus 20:9 but keep the seventh day Sabbath holy Exodus 20:8 Our opinions are not equal to scripture, and I think there is a danger when we start adding our own ideas/thoughts/will to the plain word of God.

We will probably have to agree to disagree and I pray you find blessings seeking God's Word.

Take care.

southwestforests · Jul 14, 2022

There are a lot of things in life that I am not sure of, but I am fully confident that you do not receive salvation COD, "Collect on Delivery (COD), a mailer sends an item (not already paid for) to a recipient (or agent) who pays for the item and its postage"

Ligurian · Jul 14, 2022

Ligurian said:
I made that quote to point out the obvious-to-me contrasts between the two systems.

My dictionary comes from the Gospel of the Kingdom given to the circumcision.
But your dictionary comes from Paul's gospel given to the uncircumcision. So using one dictionary to define the workings of the other gospel simply doesn't work... not without changing the inherent meanings within the separate gospels.

And yes, I know most people don't take the Bible as literally as it was written, so they don't see Galatians 2:7 telling them plainly that Paul taught one gospel to the circumcision, while Peter taught another gospel to the circumcision. Even though the chapters before and after that verse make it obvious. Paul is so plainly referencing Peter's gospel in Galatians 3, that only those who don't want to believe it won't see it. But those who keep the Gospel of the Kingdom will.

Because Peter's circumcision was taught that Gospel which the Messiah taught: the good news of the Kingdom... from the time John the baptizer went to prison. And it was taught specifically to the 10-lost-tribes in Galilee. As Matthew 10:5-7 tells us, this Gospel never went to the gentiles or even the Samaritans. And that mission-field never changed, because when the Risen Lord returned in His glorified body, He told the remaining 11 to disciple, within the nations, with the very same Commandments which He had given to them in Galilee. What's called the Great Commission is none other than the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, scattered among the nations.

But not to the House of Judah, which was still separate, according to John 7:1, and the Prophets. So when Paul says there is no difference between gentiles and Jews, he's saying it from his position of having been grafted into the House of Judah, via the divided kingdom of Solomon verses. And so Paul went to these Judahite/Jews when he went to the gentiles... preaching the gospel of grace. Which is entirely separate from the Kingdom's works of the Law given in the Sermon on the Mount from Matthew 5--Matthew 7.

These two gospels only ever seem to touch within the books of Luke and Acts... and maybe Galatians... where this strange confusion of names before us today could easily be avoided, if people only would look at Luke's 70 apostles... and then realize that the names James, Joses, Joseph, Simon, Peter, Cephas, John, etc., were not the name of one man only. ... ... There were duplicates even within the 12 Disciples... how much more so within the Bible-lands, at large? To think anything else would be to believe that the 11 Disciples of Galilee became completely apostate... returned to Jerusalem (from Galilee) where their Lord had only just been martyred... to preach to people who would also want THEM dead. Nor were they TOLD to hang around Jerusalem... but to go into the nations over which the Risen Lord now had authority.

If any apostles were hanging around Jerusalem, then they must have been Luke's 70... and so THEY were the people that Paul went to see upon his return from Arabia. We're even told by Luke that Barnabas was an apostle, so he must have used that influence to go get Saul and introduce him to Luke's other 69 apostles. Not only that, but the parables alone would have kept the 11 Disciples far, far away from Judea and the Pharisees.

And to all of that, even more points must be made.

(1)(a) Paul received his gospel by revelation. (b) But the 12 Disciples were pupils, learners, children in school... gradually adding precept to precept. (c) Not all disciples are Ιησους Disciples; John the baptizer had disciples, and so did the Pharisees.
(2)(a) Paul is called the Apostle to the gentiles. (b) The 12 Disciples were only called Apostles when they were sent (which is the meaning of the word apostle); the rest of the time they're called Ιησους Disciples.
(3)(a) Acts 15:20 tells the only burden placed upon the gentiles. (b) The burden of the Laws of the Sermon on the Mount is given to the circumcision.
(4)(a) The gospel of grace has faith as the only vehicle by which the Holy Spirit is given. (b) The Gospel of the Kingdom has Commandments-kept as the one vehicle by which the Holy Spirit is received.

sawdust said:
Galations 2:7&8
But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles),

Only one Gospel, not another Gospel. Paul is saying that he is the Apostle appointed to take the Gospel to the Gentiles and Peter is the apostle appointed to take the Gospel to the Jews.

Peter never went to the Jews/Judea, but to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel; because, man's tradition aside, the kingdom of Solomon is still divided.
So... what else have you gotten wrong?

Luke 1:1-5 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,[2] even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;[3] It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,[4] That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

Luke's "eyewitnesses" can only have been some of his 70 apostles who came to Antioch where he was a practicing physician. Now how many guys named Theophilus were there, back in the day, other than the two high priests?

The grace gospel to the gentiles by Paul

Galatians 1:6-8 [the] gospel...which we have preached unto you [Galatians]

Galatians 2:7 the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me,
..............as [the gospel] of the circumcision [was committed] unto Peter;(1 Peter 1)

Galatians 3:1-2 Christ hath been evidently set forth crucified ...[2] Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?[3] having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

The Gospel of the Kingdom by the Messiah

John 14:15-20 If ye love Me, keep My Commandments,[16] and I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever:[17] the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him. But ye know Him, for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Commandments for the Kingdom of Heaven:
Matthew 5:19-48, Matthew 6:1-34, Matthew 7:1-29.

James 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. Matthew 7:24-25 Revelation 3:8-10

Neogaia777 · Jul 14, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
I’m sorry you feel that way and you are free to believe what you want. Only God knows our heart so its best to let Him be the judge of people. I will be judged the same way we all will and I only share the scriptures out of love. The message that we do not need to be obedient to God is not one that comes from scripture. There are many scriptures some want to pretend are not in God’s Word, but there are in there and obedience to God is not just a small theme in scripture, its an important one that runs throughout the whole bible. Paul puts it this way: keeping the commandments of God is what matters. 1 Cor 7:19

This is what Jesus in His own words said about those who teach others to not keep the commandments quoting directly from the Ten Commandments. Matthew 5:19-30.

Matthew 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven

Jesus wants us to teach each other to keep the commandments. Why? Because it’s important. Most churches teach you do not need to obey God’s commandments, which is a direct contradiction to the Word of God and breaks the greatest commandments of loving God with all our hearts. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments 1 John 5:3. The whole bible works in harmony and its a balance of love, faith, belief and obedience to God (His terms). Many want to disregard that last one for some reason.

Take care.

I will never teach others to break them, but that they should always do their best to keep them, etc.

God Bless!

Neogaia777 · Jul 14, 2022

Jamdoc said:
brother I am in this thread late, but.. you've quote replied yourself several times recently and I'm a bit confused.

I didn't feel right directing them at other people directly, but wanted to leave it up to the reader if they were convicted in their own conscience about it or not, etc...

God Bless!

Neogaia777 · Jul 14, 2022

I have this to say about the commandments right now, etc...

We should always endeavor to keep the commandments, or the ones that are about morality anyway, or the Big Ten at least, etc, but if you do not or will not admit that you fail at them almost every single time/day sometimes, or somedays, or most days, etc, then you are a dirty rotten hypocrite, and are a very great liar, and you will one day have to give a full account for all of those lies, and that very great hypocrisy and dishonesty, etc...

God Bless!

SabbathBlessings · Jul 14, 2022

Neogaia777 said:
I will never teach others to break them, etc.

God Bless!

Well thats good, than I’m not sure why someone being an advocate to obeying God’s commandments would be upsetting in any way when Jesus encourages us to be teaching others to keep God’s commandments.

SabbathBlessings · Jul 14, 2022

Neogaia777 said:
I have this to say about the commandments right now, etc...

We should always endeavor to keep the commandments, or the ones that are about morality anyway, or the Big Ten at least, etc, but if you do not or will not admit that you fail at them almost every single time/day sometimes, or somedays, or most days, etc, then you are a dirty rotten hypocrite, and are a very great liar, and you will one day have to give a full account for all of those lies, and that very great hypocrisy, etc...

God Bless!

Are you saying that its impossible to keep the commandments of God, that God would command us to keep them and then judge us by them if it were impossible to keep? That doesn’t sound like a loving God to me. While we can do nothing on our own, all things are possible with God- do you believe this? That includes gaining victory over sin with the help of the Holy Spirit. John 14:15-18. Acts 5:32 If one slips and falls we have an Advocate with Jesus who is just and faithful to forgive us when we confess our sins and repent. We should not be comfortable sinning or living in perpetual sin. The commandments of God just point out sin so we know what not to do. Romans 7:7 James 2:10-12. The rest, the judging part, calling people names that you do not know, I would give that to God. There is nothing any of us can do that won’t come to light come judgement day and my prayer is that we will all be ready on that glorious day of the coming of Jesus Christ. God bless.

Neogaia777 · Jul 14, 2022

SabbathBlessings said:
Well thats good, than I’m not sure why someone being an advocate to obeying God’s commandments would be upsetting in any way when Jesus encourages us to be teaching others to keep God’s commandments.

I edited my post a little bit just now, etc...

What upsets me is all the dishonesty of some who more commonly tell others that they must keep and/or obey them, and with how they tell or teach others that they must do it, etc, but am not upset about the teaching others to keep and/or obey them them/itself specifically, etc...

God Bless!

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