When we die are we just dead?

BPPLEE said:

I actually would prefer that you were right, it would work out better for everyone. But I'm not sold on annihilationism. It is a possibility though. Have you read Four Views on Hell, Second Edition ?

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no, haven't read it ... but am aware of the various viewpoints on it.

Genesis 6:7

So the LORD said, "I will annihilate these human beings whom I've created from the earth, including people, animals, crawling things, and flying creatures, because I'm grieving that I made them."

so in the days of Noah, so it will be in the end

2 Peter 3:7

But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

destruction - annihilation

rturner76 said:

So now you are superior because you have no religion? Why are you trying so hard to convince me there is no God? You should be oblivious. I tried to apologize but you were too superior to accept. You say the religious are arrogant.

BTW this is the last off-topic post I'm sending.

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rturner76 said:

So now you are superior because you have no religion? Why are you trying so hard to convince me there is no God? You should be oblivious. I tried to apologize but you were too superior to accept. You say the religious are arrogant.

BTW this is the last off-topic post I'm sending.

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For the sake of decorum, don't reply further.
You can't handle a challenge to obviously
mistakes so you attack my character.

I in no way indicated I am superior. I made no effort to convince you there is no god.
I ont know if there is. Thought processes are my interest.

I just said your belief is based on emotion, which it is; the ' creation needs creator" logic is deeply flawed. So it's not the logic you claim.
Nobody believes that " I apologize if," is sincere.

Religion cannot be arrogant.

Decide as you like whether many who claim humility are arrogant. I didn't use the world so it's nothing to do with me.

Anyway bye, see ya on the flip side.

jayem said:

Fundamentally, it comes down to faith. I won’t argue with faith. Many people have faith in a god or gods, and others don’t. Doesn’t the Bible say faith is a gift? Well, I haven’t been given that gift. Honestly, I’ve doubted the existence of any kind of supernatural deity since I was a very young teenager. I suppose that’s just how my brain works. And anyway, if there is an omniscient God, how would it please him if I claimed to believe, but I really had overwhelming doubts? Wouldn’t God know I’m lying?

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Wouldn’t God know I’m lying?

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Yes He would.

Faith is a gift, how does one receive that gift?

faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ” (Romans 10:17)

eleos1954 said:

no, haven't read it ... but am aware of the various viewpoints on it.

Genesis 6:7

So the LORD said, "I will annihilate these human beings whom I've created from the earth, including people, animals, crawling things, and flying creatures, because I'm grieving that I made them."

so in the days of Noah, so it will be in the end

2 Peter 3:7

But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

destruction - annihilation

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Revelation 20:10

BPPLEE said:

I actually would prefer that you were right, it would work out better for everyone. But I'm not sold on annihilationism.

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In the first death something does survive.. it is not the body but rather the soul in a dormant state

Matt 10:28 "28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

So that is talking about second death (in Rev 20) when it says "destroy both soul and body in hell." -- is this the part you say you doubt?

In the case of the first death - the body is destroyed (it goes to dust... not to sleep) but the Person becomes dormant "Our friend Lazarus sleeps - I go that I may wake HIM" John 11.

jayem said:

Honestly, I’ve doubted the existence of any kind of supernatural deity since I was a very young teenager. I suppose that’s just how my brain works.

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I have always doubted the suggestion that rocks, dust and gas would come up with a rabbit over time if given enough time and random chance interaction. Are you saying you never ever doubted that story?

Or have you ever doubte that there is some as-yet-undiscovered "property" in rocks, dust and gas, such that given enough time and random chance they would come to "know about their origins, build space ships and explore our moon"??.

Christians must "believe" in the logic of creation whereby an infinite Creator, with infinite capability in wisdom, foreknowledge, power and love - could "create" mankind and all life on Earth. And they also tend to "disbelieve" in the supposedly infinitely capable grouping of "rocks, dust, gas and sunlight".

Chinese communist atheist direct encounter with Christ -

BobRyan said:

I have always doubted the suggestion that rocks, dust and gas would come up with a rabbit over time if given enough time and random chance interaction. Are you saying you never ever doubted that story?

Or have you ever doubte that there is some as-yet-undiscovered "property" in rocks, dust and gas, such that given enough time and random chance they would come to "know about their origins, build space ships and explore our moon"??.

Christians must "believe" in the logic of creation whereby an infinite Creator, with infinite capability in wisdom, foreknowledge, power and love - could "create" mankind and all life on Earth. And they also tend to "disbelieve" in the supposedly infinitely capable grouping of "rocks, dust, gas and sunlight".

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I’m not a paleobiologist. But the Earth’s environment was very different 4 billion years ago. The current thinking is that RNA appeared first. A collision with a moon -sized object may have been the trigger. The link has much more detail on the various theories:

Science | AAAS

Of course, we don’t know the precise chemical mechanisms of biogenesis now. But that doesn’t mean we never will. Consider the state of knowledge 300 years ago. Isaac Newton (a Christian, but a non-trinitarian) was still alive in 1722. He’d worked out the mathematic formula to calculate the force of gravity between 2 masses. But could he have known that gravity is actually a distortion by mass of the time/space continuum? Would he have had the faintest clue that a particle acquires mass through interaction with a boson in the Higgs field that permeates the entire universe.? By the same token, none of us can imagine what we may learn 300 years from now.

BTW: Do you really believe the grasses, trees, and other vegetation was created before the sun? And why would our planet take 6 days to create, when all the rest of the universe—an unimaginably huge number of stars, planets, and other objects—was done in just one day? It makes no sense. Until you realize it’s one of the many, many creation legends fabricated by primitive peoples thousands of years ago.

jayem said:

I’m not a paleobiologist. But the Earth’s environment was very different 4 billion years ago. The current thinking is that RNA appeared first. A collision with a moon -sized object may have been the trigger. The link has much more detail on the various theories:

Science | AAAS

Of course, we don’t know the precise chemical mechanisms of biogenesis now. But that doesn’t mean we never will. Consider the state of knowledge 300 years ago. Isaac Newton (a Christian, but a non-trinitarian) was still alive in 1722. He’d worked out the mathematic formula to calculate the force of gravity between 2 masses. But could he have known that gravity is actually a distortion by mass of the time/space continuum? Would he have had the faintest clue that a particle acquires mass through interaction with a boson in the Higgs field that permeates the entire universe.? By the same token, none of us can imagine what we may learn 300 years from now.

BTW: Do you really believe the grasses, trees, and other vegetation was created before the sun? And why would our planet take 6 days to create, when all the rest of the universe—an unimaginably huge number of stars, planets, and other objects—was done in just one day? It makes no sense. Until you realize it’s one of the many, many creation legends fabricated by primitive peoples thousands of years ago.

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"I wonder," said the flounder, "Is the cod a pike"?

When man thought he had all the answers, that is when wonder died.

Robban said:

When man thought he had all the answers, that is when wonder died.

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Au contraire. We will never have all the answers. The more we discover and understand, the more questions will arise. But that’s OK. The thrill of science is in the journey, not the destination.

Original Happy Camper said:

....Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

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This is anti Christian so Ive been told. Salvation come from faith, not deeds. This passage completely ignores faith as a qualification for eternal life.

BPPLEE said:

Revelation 20:10

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Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it" (Isaiah 47:14).

"I saw a new heaven and a new earth. … And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Revelation 21:1, 4).

"Behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. … And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts" (Malachi 4:1, 3).

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Revelation 21:8).

The Bible is clear: the wicked are obliterated in hellfire. If they lived forever, they would be immortal. But this is impossible, because the Bible says God "only hath immortality" (1 Timothy 6:16). Immortality is a gift given only to righteous humans at the judgment.

The Bible says the penalty for sin is “death" (Romans 6:23), and "destruction" (Job 21:30). The wicked "shall perish" (Psalm 37:20), "burn" up (Malachi 4:1), "be destroyed together" (Psalm 37:38), "shall be cut off" (Psalm 37:9), and "shall be slain" (Psalm 62:3). These references and many more make it clear that the wicked die and are destroyed.

Some other thoughts ....

If God tortures people then it would be ok for us to torture people (as we are made in His image) ... for most of us (believers or not) instinctively know torture is not acceptable.

Jesus says He who has seen me has seen the Father. Did Jesus torture anyone?

Overall biblical teaching is about life or death ... exist or not. Two deaths, the first death (earthly death) does not have to be permanent. The 2nd death is for eternity. Death is death. Mortal means subject to death.

I do not know this god of torture that some put forth.

If there is "some place" where torture is going on and will continue throughout eternity (forever and ever) then that denotes immortality (all though not a very pleasant one) and His word states immortality does not happen until Jesus returns. Immortality happens at the 1st resurrection for those in Christ.

John 5:27-5:29 - tells us the dead are in the grave ... not some burning place.

27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Romans 6:23: The debt of sin must be paid for. There are two ways to pay for it: Either
Jesus pays for it or the sinner does. “For the wages of sin is death (not eternal suffering), but the gift of God is eternal life
in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Scripture as a whole my friend.

Many others but I'll stop here.

At the risk of being eternally corny, I'm posting a poem by the early Victorian British writer, Leigh Hunt. The poem is about an Islamic scholar, Abou Ben Adhem. This is what all religion should be:

Abou Ben Adhem (may his tribe increase!)
Awoke one night from a deep dream of peace,
And saw, within the moonlight in his room,
Making it rich, and like a lily in bloom,
An angel writing in a book of gold:—
Exceeding peace had made Ben Adhem bold,
And to the presence in the room he said,
“What writest thou?”—The vision raised its head,
And with a look made of all sweet accord,
Answered, “The names of those who love the Lord.”
“And is mine one?” said Abou. “Nay, not so,”
Replied the angel. Abou spoke more low,
But cheerly still; and said, “I pray thee, then,
Write me as one that loves his fellow men.”

The angel wrote, and vanished. The next night
It came again with a great wakening light,
And showed the names whom love of God had blest,
And lo! Ben Adhem’s name led all the rest.

rturner76 said:

I love and believe in God and Jesus. However lately, I have been plagued by the notion that when we die we are just dead, game over, nice knowing ya. Nobody has ever been able to come back from heaven and tell us what it's like.

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??? What about Christ, or the apostle John?

rturner76 said:

I started thinking that we made up heaven because we want to think our lives don't end but all signs say that when it's over it's over.

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Except the Resurrection of Christ.

rturner76 said:

Jews don't really believe in a heaven and they've been at it a lot longer than we have.

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The Jews haven't the whole story. They are stuck in the past, worshiping God under an Old Covenant He's long abandoned.

rturner76 said:

Is this a lack of faith? Why is this happening? I do believe God is real because otherwise, how did everything get here? I just can't help but think that the life we have is our one shot at it and when you die, you're dead. Maybe I'm just depressed

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Are you lacking faith? Maybe. Don't you believe that Christ rose from the dead and if he did, we will, too?

Why are you crowded with doubts about what happens when you die? Perhaps you're not walking rightly with God and so do not experience Him in the Person of the Holy Spirit in the way the Bible says you can. And if you don't have this daily experience of God, of the Spirit, what do you have? Just lifeless words on a page telling you about a God you don't really know and with whom you have no fellowship.

No, you were made, not for time, but for eternity. The devil would love it if you took a short view of things and lived believing this life on earth is the only shot you've got. But a daily experience of God is a daily confirmation that more awaits you beyond the grave, that you die in order to meet, face-to-face, the One who made you and to live in joyful fellowship with Him forever.

What constitutes fellowship with God?

- Love of God and the Christian brethren (Romans 5:5; 1 John 4:16-19; 1 John 3:14)
- Conviction of sin (John 16:8)
- Strengthening in times of temptation and trial (Ephesians 3:16; Romans 8:13; Philippians 4:13)
- Illumination of divine truth (John 14:26; 16:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10-16)
- Comfort in seasons of trouble and sorrow (2 Corinthians 1:3-5; Psalms 46:1)
- Transformation of your desires, thinking and character (Philippians 2:13; 2 Corinthians 3:18;
Galatians 5:22-23)
- Discipline (Hebrews 12:5-11)

How do you obtain this sort of experience of God?

By knowing who you are in Christ and standing, by faith, in your identity in him. (Romans 6:1-11; Colossians 2:8-15; Ephesians 1:1-14, 2 Corinthians 5:7, etc.)

By submitting yourself throughout each day to the will and way of the Holy Spirit. (Romans 6:13-22; Romans 8:14; Romans 12:1; James 4:6-10; 1 Peter 5:6)

By keeping "short accounts" with God, confessing and forsaking sin when it appears in your life. (1 John 1:9; James 5:16; 1 Peter 1:14-15)

rturner76 said:

Thank you for your reply. I posted this because I actually was wondering if it is my own lack of faith that has made me doubt my salvation from death. My secular mind and belief in science does contaminate my faith I believe. I have found it difficult to disengage with the secular and live purely for my faith.

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You're welcome. I would, though, caution you about thinking that science and faith are in conflict. They aren't. Here's some great discussions by eminent scientist/philosophers on this topic:

rturner76 said:

For example, according to most scientists (biologists) life ends at brain death.

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Dr. J.P. Moreland, an American Christian apologist, has specialized in the mind-brain connection, arguing very effectively against the notion that the two things are identical and that brain-death means the end of the mind (and soul). I'd recommend checking out his writing on this subject.

rturner76 said:

But yeah, there is room for both science and religion in my belief system.

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Glad to hear it!