The duration of hell and its purpose

eleos1954 · Jul 12, 2022

FineLinen said:
Eleos: Au contraire!

The Master of reconciliation will draw how many unto Himself?

ALL

Draw = helkuo =
Draw off in power.
Drag off in power.
Impel in power.

But how should we understand the word draw as it is used in John 6:44? The range of meaning for the word elkuo includes to draw, pull, or attract. It is found five times in the New Testament, four of those in John.

Though the literal uses in John and Acts clearly mean drag or pull (John 18:10; 21:6; Acts 16:19) the two figurative uses in John 6:44 and 12:32 are better understood as attract.

The context shows why. In John 6, eternal life is spoken of as a gift that is received by believing in Christ (6:27-29, 32-35, 40, 47, 51). The idea of a gift assumes the freedom to accept or reject it. The motive behind this gift assumes God's love (John 3:16). This is consistent with how the Greek translation of the Old Testament (Septuagint) sometimes uses elkuo in a context of love's attraction: "With loving kindness I have drawn you" (Jeremiah 31:3; see also Song of Solomon 1:3-4).

eleos1954 · Jul 12, 2022

FineLinen said:
Eleos: Au contraire!

The Master of reconciliation will draw how many unto Himself?

ALL

Draw = helkuo =
Draw off in power.
Drag off in power.
Impel in power.

Helkuo is a strong word which means to tug, draw, or compel, and is found 6 times in the New Testament. In each usage, whatever was drawn came; there is never a suggestion or hint that whatever was drawn was not accomplished. It is used in John 18:10 of drawing a sword, John 21:6 and 11 of hauling/drawing a net full of fish, and Acts 16:19, of Paul and Silas being dragged into the marketplace. In John 12:32, Jesus said, And I, if I am lifted up, will draw all men to Myself.

But how should we understand the word draw as it is used in John 6:44? The range of meaning for the word elkuo includes to draw, pull, or attract. It is found five times in the New Testament, four of those in John. Though the literal uses in John and Acts clearly mean drag or pull (John 18:10; 21:6; Acts 16:19) the two figurative uses in John 6:44 and 12:32 are better understood as attract.

The context shows why. In John 6, eternal life is spoken of as a gift that is received by believing in Christ (6:27-29, 32-35, 40, 47, 51). The idea of a gift assumes the freedom to accept or reject it. The motive behind this gift assumes God's love (John 3:16). This is consistent with how the Greek translation of the Old Testament (Septuagint) sometimes uses elkuo in a context of love's attraction: "With loving kindness I have drawn you" (Jer. 31:3; see also Song of Solomon 1:3-4).

The whole of scripture teaches He invites .... He don't drag anyone around.

Der Alte · Jul 12, 2022

MMXX said:
Your question involved an inapplicable scenario, so I provided an applicable answer to set it straight.

wendykvw said:
For some during their lifetime here on earth. For others it may be after this life. God is God of both the living and the dead.

Unfortunately there is no, zero, none scripture to support these scenarios they are all supposition.
Here is the problem I have with these and similar scenarios.
Jesus stated His ministry in Luk 4:18-19

Luke 4:18-19
(18) The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
(19) To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

This ministry did not involve preaching to the dead, anywhere. And as Jesus said, this scripture is fulfilled. This must and did happen in this life not after death.
There ain't no poor, brokenhearted, captives, blind, bruised in the grave or hell, only the dead, who are all equal. Also Jesus said,

John 9:4-5
(4) I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
(5) As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

And another verse which is relevant.

John 14:6
(6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Several years ago I was flying somewhere, the man in the seat beside me was reading the Bible. To start a conversation I said, "Good book. I like how it ends." Then I said "You are a military aviator." He looked at me astonished and said "Do I have a sign on my forehead? I said, "No the issue aviator glasses and the military haircut." We had two things in common, we were both Christians and military aviators. We conversed some after that. Back to my first comment. The back of the book.

Revelation 21:4
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5
(5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Vs. 4 "No more death." vs. 5 "I make all things new."

Revelation 21:8
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Although vs. 4 says no more death, vs. 8 says eight groups of people are thrown into the lake of fire, which is still the second death

Revelation 22:11
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Instead of everybody being saved, in vs. 11 Jesus says "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still."
No where does the Bible say after vs.22:11 that the unjust and filthy are ultimately saved.

Der Alte · Jul 12, 2022

eleos1954 said:
But how should we understand the word draw as it is used in John 6:44? The range of meaning for the word elkuo includes to draw, pull, or attract. It is found five times in the New Testament, four of those in John. Though the literal uses in John and Acts clearly mean drag or pull (John 18:10; 21:6; Acts 16:19) the two figurative uses in John 6:44 and 12:32 are better understood as attract.
The context shows why. In John 6, eternal life is spoken of as a gift that is received by believing in Christ (6:27-29, 32-35, 40, 47, 51). The idea of a gift assumes the freedom to accept or reject it. The motive behind this gift assumes God's love (John 3:16). This is consistent with how the Greek translation of the Old Testament (Septuagint) sometimes uses elkuo in a context of love's attraction: "With loving kindness I have drawn you" (Jer. 31:3; see also Song of Solomon 1:3-4).
The whole of scripture teaches He invites .... He don't drag anyone around.

Correcta mundo. God don't drag the unwilling to Jesus. You have identified a common lexical fallacy often applied to John 6:44. Some folks whip out their Strong's and see that one of the possible meanings of ελκυση/elkuse' is drag so to make the vs, say what they want it to they insist it means "drag."
But in the lexicons elkuse' is listed as AAS-3S or aorist, active, subjunctive, 3rd person singular. This tells us it can't be translated just any old way. The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and potentiality. It may or may not happen.
The Subjunctive Mood – Ancient Greek for Everyone

wendykvw · Jul 12, 2022

Der Alte said:
Unfortunately there is no, zero, none scripture to support these scenarios they are all supposition.
Here is the problem I have with these and similar scenarios.
Jesus stated His ministry in Luk 4:18-19

Luke 4:18-19
(18) The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
(19) To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
This ministry did not involve preaching to the dead, anywhere. And as Jesus said, this scripture is fulfilled. This must and did happen in this life not after death.
There ain't no poor, brokenhearted, captives, blind, bruised in the grave or hell, only the dead, who are all equal. Also Jesus said,

John 9:4-5
(4) I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
(5) As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
And another verse which is relevant.

John 14:6
(6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Several years ago I was flying somewhere, the man in the seat beside me was reading the Bible. To start a conversation I said, "Good book. I like how it ends." Then I said "You are a military aviator." He looked at me astonished and said "Do I have a sign on my forehead? I said, "No the issue aviator glasses and the military haircut." We had two things in common, we were both Christians and military aviators. We conversed some after that. Back to my first comment. The back of the book.

Revelation 21:4
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5
(5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Vs. 4 "No more death." vs. 5 "I make all things new."

Revelation 21:8
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Although vs. 4 says no more death, vs. 8 says eight groups of people are thrown into the lake of fire, which is still the second death

Revelation 22:11
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Instead of everybody being saved, in vs. 11 Jesus says "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still."
No where does the Bible say after vs.22:11 that the unjust and filthy are ultimately saved.

Anyone can cherry pick any verse to support their position. Scripture taken as a whole paints a glorious picture that those who hold to the annihilation view or eternal torment refuse to acknowledge

Der Alte said:
Unfortunately there is no, zero, none scripture to support these scenarios they are all supposition.
Here is the problem I have with these and similar scenarios.
Jesus stated His ministry in Luk 4:18-19

Luke 4:18-19
(18) The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
(19) To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
This ministry did not involve preaching to the dead, anywhere. And as Jesus said, this scripture is fulfilled. This must and did happen in this life not after death.
There ain't no poor, brokenhearted, captives, blind, bruised in the grave or hell, only the dead, who are all equal. Also Jesus said,

John 9:4-5
(4) I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
(5) As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
And another verse which is relevant.

John 14:6
(6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Several years ago I was flying somewhere, the man in the seat beside me was reading the Bible. To start a conversation I said, "Good book. I like how it ends." Then I said "You are a military aviator." He looked at me astonished and said "Do I have a sign on my forehead? I said, "No the issue aviator glasses and the military haircut." We had two things in common, we were both Christians and military aviators. We conversed some after that. Back to my first comment. The back of the book.

Revelation 21:4
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5
(5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Vs. 4 "No more death." vs. 5 "I make all things new."

Revelation 21:8
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Although vs. 4 says no more death, vs. 8 says eight groups of people are thrown into the lake of fire, which is still the second death

Revelation 22:11
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Instead of everybody being saved, in vs. 11 Jesus says "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still."
No where does the Bible say after vs.22:11 that the unjust and filthy are ultimately saved.

Do you hang all of your theological doctrines on the book of Revelation? If yes, then you are neglecting the whole counsel of scripture. Vs. 22:11 in Revelation is referring to the current world we live in, planet earth. Does planet earth have wicked people who are not prepared to meet Christ? OF course, However, when we compare scripture with scripture, it indicates that God, who created the world will restore the world to its original condition before the fall. Satan deceived Adam, and we ALL inherited the fallen nature of Adam. God will restore the same group of Adam's trespass. Which was everyone born human. 4Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who did not sin in the way that Adam transgressed. He is a pattern of the One to come. 15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many! 16Again, the gift is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment that followed one sin brought condemnation ( to all people), but the gift that followed many trespasses brought justification to all people. Romans 5:4-16.

Now, if you are a Calvinist this 'gift' is only for the elect. If you are a free will (faith alone, through Grace alone) proponent this gift is only for those who make a decision for Christ. These two views are widely held as acceptable and orthodox. Restoration marries these two views with one exception: God chooses all people who were affected by the trespass of Adam, and the eventual outcome will be that all people will choose God. No deadline. Postmortem salvation, mercy beyond the grave, you name it, God does not change after a human dies. His mercy, love, and compassion will never expire. God does not spoil, His nature is preserved by His nature and character. No man, or woman, child or otherwise can change His desire to redeem every single soul Satan attempted to estrange forever from their creator.

God's love, mercies, compassion, and Grace last forever, they are infinite, having no end.
The LORD is compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in loving devotion.9He will not always accuse us, nor harbor His anger forever. Ps 103:8-9

His punishments, corrections, and discipline have an end. This is what love does, for those who were severely damaged by an evil enemy, known as the devil. God rescued His creation from this wicked evil spirit, Lucifer.

Psalm 145:8-10, 14, 17.

8The LORD is gracious and merciful; Slow to anger and great in lovingkindness. 9The LORD is good to all, And His mercies are over all His works. 10All Your works shall give thanks to You, O LORD, And Your godly ones shall bless You… 14The LORD sustains all who fall And raises up all who are bowed down… 17The LORD is righteous in all His ways And kind in all His deeds.

I bow down and worship Jesus Christ, and give Him honor, for He is truly the Savior of the WORLD. No man can boast, all are created the same.

The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, “Look! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! John 1:29

Luke 6:27-36

27’But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29’Whoever hits you on the cheek, offer him the other also; and whoever takes away your coat, do not withhold your shirt from him either. 30’Give to everyone who asks of you, and whoever takes away what is yours, do not demand it back. 31’Treat others the same way you want them to treat you. 32’If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33’If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34’If you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners in order to receive back the same amount. 35’But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and
your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men. 36’Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.’ (NASB)

In this passage, Christ tells us to “love,” “do good,” “bless,” and “pray” for our enemies and yet most Christians believe God will do just the opposite when His enemies die. According to the traditional view, God will only “love” those who loved Him, “do good” to those who did good to Him, “bless” those who blessed Him, and “pray” for those who prayed to Him. But this doesn’t square with Jesus’ own words in Luke Ch. 6 where He reminds us that if you only love those who love you, you’re no better than the sinners (vv. 32-33). Does God not follow His own Principles?

FineLinen · Jul 12, 2022

eleos1954 said:
But how should we understand the word draw as it is used in John 6:44? The range of meaning for the word elkuo includes to draw, pull, or attract. It is found five times in the New Testament, four of those in John. Though the literal uses in John and Acts clearly mean drag or pull (John 18:10; 21:6; Acts 16:19) the two figurative uses in John 6:44 and 12:32 are better understood as attract.

The context shows why. In John 6, eternal life is spoken of as a gift that is received by believing in Christ (6:27-29, 32-35, 40, 47, 51). The idea of a gift assumes the freedom to accept or reject it. The motive behind this gift assumes God's love (John 3:16). This is consistent with how the Greek translation of the Old Testament (Septuagint) sometimes uses elkuo in a context of love's attraction: "With loving kindness I have drawn you" (Jer. 31:3; see also Song of Solomon 1:3-4).

The whole of scripture teaches He invites .... He don't drag anyone around.

Eleos: That is indeed the range of Father's draw upon His creation.

I believe in the One who succeeds in His mighty purposes within the Son of His love. He never ever fails.

Every knee, every tonque, every dimension in spontaneous vibrations of worship, ALL.

Der Alte · Jul 12, 2022

wendykvw said:
Anyone can cherry pick any verse to support their position. Scripture taken as a whole paints a glorious picture that those who hold to the annihilation view or eternal torment refuse to acknowledge * * *

You accuse me of cherry picking verses and you cherry pick verses from the O.T. and completely ignore everything I posted. Actually read the vss. I quoted and, if you can convince me I have misquoted them or they don't actually say what I quoted.
Does this vs. say what I think it does or does it say something different?

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

How about this passage?

Jeremiah 13:11
(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
Jeremiah 13:14
(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

wendykvw · Jul 12, 2022

FineLinen said:
Eleos: That is indeed the range of Father's draw upon His creation.

I believe in the One who succeeds in His mighty purposes within the Son of His love. He never ever fails.

Every knee, every tonque, every dimension in spontaneous vibrations of worship, ALL.

8Love never fails....1 Corinthians 13:4-8

wendykvw · Jul 12, 2022

Der Alte said:
You accuse me of cherry picking verses and you cherry pick verses from the O.T. and completely ignore everything I posted. Actually read the vss. I quoted and, if you can convince me I have misquoted them or they don't actually say what I quoted.
Does this vs. say what I think it does or does it say something different?

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
How about this passage.

Jeremiah 13:11
(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
Jeremiah 13:14
(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

Yes, we have been in discussion over the verses in Matthew 7, Matthew 25, and other such verses, and I have pointed out to you that those Jesus never knew, Confessed Him as Lord. I repeat, when I say these verses pose no problem for the restoration view whatsoever. It does cause an issue for your position due to the fact that those on the left were "believers" who confessed Jesus as LORD!.

I can go over why these verses are not a problem for the restoration view. Even believers are subjected to punishment, fire, and discipline correction if THEY fail to prepare for the kingdom of heaven. Christ is teaching that those on the left did not live by the principles of love and compassion. Regardless of one's doctrinal stance, denominational stance, or confessional stance.... to refuse love and compassion to the less fortunate, they will be subjected to the Lord's punishments, yes even those on the left who confessed Jesus as Lord (believers).

Der Alte · Jul 12, 2022

wendykvw said:
Yes, we have been in discussion over the verses in Matthew 7, Matthew 25, and other such verses, and I have pointed out to you that those Jesus never knew, Confessed Him as Lord. I repeat, when I say these verses pose no problem for the restoration view whatsoever. It does cause an issue for your position due to the fact that those on the left were "believers" who confessed Jesus as LORD!.
I can go over why these verses are not a problem for the restoration view. Even believers are subjected to punishment, fire, and discipline correction if THEY fail to prepare for the kingdom of heaven. Christ is teaching that those on the left did not live by the principles of love and compassion. Regardless of one's doctrinal stance, denominational stance, or confessional stance.... to refuse love and compassion to the less fortunate, they will be subjected to the Lord's punishments, yes even those on the left who confessed Jesus as Lord (believers).

I appreciate you sharing you unsupported opinion. Unfortunately one cannot provide scripture which supports those opinions.

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”

Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years +/- ago. Who better than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, the translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], know the correct meaning of the Greek words in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online;
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., first occurrence Matt 25:46 and the second occurrence is 1 John 4:18.

EOB 1 John 4:18 here is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[ κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.

Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios” as “eternal,” NOT age.
The Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4;18. Some folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.” However, according to the EOB Greek scholars it means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not and cannot mean “correction.
…..Because of some criticism, I recognize that modern Greek is different than koine Greek but I am confident that EOB scholars are competent enough to know the meanings of words which may have changed in meaning or have dropped out of use altogether and translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of archaic words which occur in the KJV and translate them correctly.

Ceallaigh · Jul 12, 2022

Der Alte said:
Unfortunately there is no, zero, none scripture to support these scenarios they are all supposition.
Here is the problem I have with these and similar scenarios.
Jesus stated His ministry in Luk 4:18-19

Luke 4:18-19
(18) The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
(19) To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
This ministry did not involve preaching to the dead, anywhere. And as Jesus said, this scripture is fulfilled. This must and did happen in this life not after death.
There ain't no poor, brokenhearted, captives, blind, bruised in the grave or hell, only the dead, who are all equal. Also Jesus said,

John 9:4-5
(4) I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
(5) As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
And another verse which is relevant.

John 14:6
(6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Several years ago I was flying somewhere, the man in the seat beside me was reading the Bible. To start a conversation I said, "Good book. I like how it ends." Then I said "You are a military aviator." He looked at me astonished and said "Do I have a sign on my forehead? I said, "No the issue aviator glasses and the military haircut." We had two things in common, we were both Christians and military aviators. We conversed some after that. Back to my first comment. The back of the book.

Revelation 21:4
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5
(5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Vs. 4 "No more death." vs. 5 "I make all things new."

Revelation 21:8
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Although vs. 4 says no more death, vs. 8 says eight groups of people are thrown into the lake of fire, which is still the second death

Revelation 22:11
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Instead of everybody being saved, in vs. 11 Jesus says "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still."
No where does the Bible say after vs.22:11 that the unjust and filthy are ultimately saved.

Another very old template that's been posted over and over and over again, but doesn't really add up to much.

Ceallaigh · Jul 12, 2022

Der Alte said:
I appreciate you sharing you unsupported opinion. Unfortunately one cannot provide scripture which supports those opinions.

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”
Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years +/- ago. Who better than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, the translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], know the correct meaning of the Greek words in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online;
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., first occurrence Matt 25:46 and the second occurrence is 1 John 4:18.

EOB 1 John 4:18 here is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[ κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.
Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios” as “eternal,” NOT age.
The Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4;18. Some folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.” However, according to the EOB Greek scholars it means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not and cannot mean “correction.
…..Because of some criticism, I recognize that modern Greek is different than koine Greek but I am confident that EOB scholars are competent enough to know the meanings of words which may have changed in meaning or have dropped out of use altogether and translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of archaic words which occur in the KJV and translate them correctly.

Another old template that's been posted over and over and over again, which doesn't establish much outside of harping on the single word that's the foundation of the damnationist doctrine.

Der Alte · Jul 12, 2022

MMXX said:
Another very old template that's been posted over and over and over again, but doesn't really add up to much.

I see this response a lot. "You're wrong and I'm right! Am too! Nuh huh!"

Ceallaigh · Jul 12, 2022

Der Alte said:
I see this response a lot. "You're wrong and I'm right! Am too! Nuh huh!"

No it means you're spamming.

FineLinen · Jul 12, 2022

Neogaia777 said:
But what is He drawing all men to himself for...? Or what is to be/have been done/accomplished with them after that, etc...? Because that is the question, etc... Because there is no one scripture that specifically says that "all men/people will be saved" or that "all will all ultimately go or get into heaven ultimately", but there are some (plenty) of pretty clear ones (scriptures) that actually say quite the opposite actually, and talk about a coming sorting work, and/or judgement that will either put one in either one place or the other, etc, and that also seems to indicate that it will be "final" and there will be no going back at some point along the way of it also, etc...

Not trying to be a killjoy here, but am just trying to speak what is the hard and difficult truths for some who have not been able to fully reconcile them yet, etc...

God Bless!

Dear young soul: As the Father opens our eyes to see, in His good pleasure & timing, what was earlier in our walk within Him hard to understand, scales fall from our vision.

"He pre-destined us to be adopted by Himself as sons through Jesus Christ--such being His gracious will and pleasure-- to the praise of the splendour of His grace with which He has enriched us in the beloved One. It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. In Him we have been made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will, so that we should be devoted to the extolling of His glorious attributes--we who were the first to fix our hopes on Christ. ~R.F.Weymouth

Der Alte · Jul 12, 2022

MMXX said:
No it means you're spamming.

I am not going to reinvent the wheel every time I see the same out-of-context proof texts and repetitive arguments.

Jipsah · Jul 12, 2022

Der Alte said:
Logical fallacy. Argument from silence. Can you prove that flying pink unicorns don't exist?

Nope, it's an argument from silece I was responding to, a "no Scripture says you can", with a "no Scripture says you cannot, either". Silence on both sides, which was the point. Scripture doesn't say there are pink unicprns, neither does it say that there are not.. Nobody gets to claim the Bible is on their side is such a case. Alles klar, herr kommisar <Laugh>

The rest of your response didn't appear to have any bearing on my post at all.

Der Alte · Jul 12, 2022

Jipsah said:
* * * Nobody gets to claim the Bible is on their side is such a case. Alles klar, herr kommisar <Laugh>

Auch so klar wie nebel.

The rest of your response didn't appear to have any bearing on my post at all.

Warum hast du es nicht gelesen?

wendykvw · Jul 12, 2022

Der Alte said:
I appreciate you sharing you unsupported opinion. Unfortunately one cannot provide scripture which supports those opinions.

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”
Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years +/- ago. Who better than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, the translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], know the correct meaning of the Greek words in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online;
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., first occurrence Matt 25:46 and the second occurrence is 1 John 4:18.

EOB 1 John 4:18 here is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[ κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.
Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios” as “eternal,” NOT age.
The Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4;18. Some folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.” However, according to the EOB Greek scholars it means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not and cannot mean “correction.
…..Because of some criticism, I recognize that modern Greek is different than koine Greek but I am confident that EOB scholars are competent enough to know the meanings of words which may have changed in meaning or have dropped out of use altogether and translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of archaic words which occur in the KJV and translate them correctly.

I am happy you appreciate my opinion. I appreciate yours as well.

Ceallaigh · Jul 12, 2022

Der Alte said:
I am not going to reinvent the wheel every time I see the same out-of-context proof texts and repetitive arguments.

There's no excuse for spamming.

The duration of hell and its purpose

What is the duration of hell?

Forever

Temporary

Other

God is Love

God is Love

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This is me about 1 yr. old.

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Author, and Patristic Universalist Minister

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May God be with you and bless you.

May God be with you and bless you.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

May God be with you and bless you.

Senior Veteran

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Blood Drinker

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Author, and Patristic Universalist Minister

May God be with you and bless you.

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