SDA Basic Belief 27: God Will Give the Earth to Satan’s Angels

LoveGodsWord · Jul 7, 2022

tall73 said:
So something essential about Paul went back to God, absent from the body, and at home with the Lord? Paul was with the Lord?

Tell me, if you believe that the dead do not know anything and that the dead in Christ are not brought back to life until the second coming and the resurrection of the dead, how can Paul go and meet the Lord as soon as he dies when Paul also says that the resurrection of the dead does not take place until the last days at the second coming?

tall73 · Jul 7, 2022

LoveGodsWord said:
Yes the breath of life absent from the body means death right which returns to God awaiting resurrection and a new body at the resurrection of the dead at the second coming.

LoveGodsWord said:
Paul not being in the body means to die and his life (breath of life) being returned to God who gave it after His death awaiting the resurrection of the new body

So then Paul is absent from the body and present with the Lord, since his "life" (I added the emphasis on life in your quote to make the point), went to God?

tall73 · Jul 7, 2022

LoveGodsWord said:
Tell me, if you believe that the dead do not know anything and that the dead in Christ are not brought back to life until the second coming and the resurrection of the dead, how can Paul go and meet the Lord as soon as he dies when Paul also says that the resurrection of the dead does not take place until the last days at the second coming?

You just said his "life" goes back to God. The text says that He is absent from the body and at home with the Lord.

So that seems to answer it. He may be asleep and still be with the Lord.

His spirit goes to be with the Lord, and his body sleeps in the dust.

LoveGodsWord · Jul 7, 2022

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Well you did not answer my question from the last post asking you what is it you think I am saying about 2 Corinthians 5:8 while disregarding my earlier posts and scripture shared with you on 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 showing that the context is to living, death and judgement. Paul not being in the body means to die and his life (breath of life) being returned to God who gave it after His death awaiting the resurrection of the new body with the breath of life at the second coming and the resurrection of the dead as shown by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-55.

Your response...

tall73 said:
So then Paul is absent from the body and present with the Lord, since his "life" (I added the emphasis on life in your quote to make the point), went to God?

From the last post (breath of life) emphasis mine. Please answer post # 581 linked

tall73 · Jul 7, 2022

LoveGodsWord said:
Your response...

From the last post (breath of life) emphasis mine. Please answer post # 581 linked

I did in post 583

Adventist Heretic · Jul 7, 2022

LoveGodsWord said:
There was no change of the cross that deletes the old testament scrptures. The change at the cross is that we are no longer under the old covenant shadow laws that pointed to Jesus as Gods' sacrifice for the sins of the world once and for all. *John 1:29; Hebrews 10:10 and are now under the new covenant based on better promises.

then you are not reading the same bible. what does this mean?

1Peter 3:19 For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit, 19in whom He also went and preached to the spirits in prison

What prision? What spirit?

LoveGodsWord · Jul 7, 2022

tall73 said:
You just said his "life" goes back to God. The text says that He is absent from the body and at home with the Lord. So that seems to answer it. He may be asleep and still be with the Lord.
His spirit goes to be with the Lord, and his body sleeps in the dust.

Yes the breath of life. The breath of life however we all have from God does not have a rational mind until it becomes a part of the body. When it is separate from the body at death it has no mind (unconscious). I do not see how your response here though answers those questions posed but I think we are getting closer.

Adventist Heretic · Jul 7, 2022

LoveGodsWord said:
I think we already had this discussion some time ago...

SPIRIT

Hebrew....

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - H7307
רוּחַ (rûwach | roo'-akh) Derivation: from רוּחַ; Strong's: wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions) KJV: air, anger, blast, breath, [idiom] cool, courage, mind, [idiom] quarter, [idiom] side, spirit(-ual), tempest, [idiom] vain, (whirl-) wind(-y).

Greek....

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - G4151
πνεῦμα (pneûma | pnyoo'-mah) Derivation: from G4154; Strong's: a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit

As shown in the scriptures posted earlier "the breath of life" returns to God who gave it once we die the first death. The body returns to dust and the Spirit (breath of life) returns to God (see Ecclesiastes 12:7; Genesis 3:19 and Genesis 2:7).

SOUL

Hebrew..

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - H5315
נֶפֶשׁ (nephesh | neh'-fesh) Derivation: from נָפַשׁ; Strong's: properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental) KJV: any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, [idiom] dead(-ly), desire, [idiom] (dis-) contented, [idiom] fish, ghost, [phrase] greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, [idiom] jeopardy of) life ([idiom] in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, [phrase] slay, soul, [phrase] tablet, they, thing, ([idiom] she) will, [idiom] would have it.

Greek...

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - G5590
ψυχή (psychḗ | psoo-khay') Derivation: from G5594; Strong's: breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151

..................

CONCLUSION:

Therefore the meaning of 1 Thessalonians 5:23 "body, soul and spirit) is simply that God will sanctify you to the utmost of all your being (body, breath/soul and mind/spirit) and for Matthew 10:28, do not be afraid of those who can kill the body but cannot take away your life as that comes from God (eternal life). Be afraid therefore of those who can take away your body and your life (eternal life) that comes from God (context is to "believers" - John 3:36).

Take Care.

again you are looking at the bigger meaning with out acknowledging the detail. sceipture lists the Soul as a different thing all to it's self. it can be thrown into hell, which would account for why Saul went looking for it. It also explains how a believer can be absent from the body and be present with the Lord. It also explains why it the OT the scripture says 1 thing, but in the NT for believer it says something different. you cannot simply wish that away.

LoveGodsWord · Jul 7, 2022

Adventist Heretic said:
then you are not reading the same bible. what does this mean?

1Peter 3:19 For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit, 19in whom He also went and preached to the spirits in prison

What prision? What spirit?

My personal understanding of this scripture means that Christ throughout all time preached the gospel to all mankind and the spirits in prison represent the living throughout all time who have all sinned. We are all the spirits in prison to sin (see John 8:31-36; see also Romans 3:9-20).

LoveGodsWord · Jul 7, 2022

Adventist Heretic said:
again you are looking at the bigger meaning with out acknowledging the detail. sceipture lists the Soul as a different thing all to it's self. it can be thrown into hell, which would account for why Saul went looking for it. It also explains how a believer can be absent from the body and be present with the Lord. It also explains why it the OT the scripture says 1 thing, but in the NT for believer it says something different. you cannot simply wish that away.

This is really not responsive to the post you are quoting from. There is a fairly detailed response you are disregarding there explaining those scriptures you provided.

tall73 · Jul 7, 2022

LoveGodsWord said:
Yes the breath of life. The breath of life however does not have a rational mind because it is separate from the body at death. I do not see how your response here though answers those questions posed but I think we are getting closer.

Yes, we may be getting closer.

The text says that WE would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord

2Co 5:8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

So away from the body does happen at death. We agree on that much.

But, to put it obviously, away from the body, means not in the body. We are not in the body. We are not there. We are elsewhere. So that is not the resurrection, because at the resurrection we ARE in the body.

And We rather be at home with the Lord.

So there is a state that is not in the body, after death, that is also at home with the Lord.

So the spirit that goes back to God is in some real way the "we" spoken of. Paul will be with the Lord, though that doesn't necessarily mean he is awake or aware.

And at the same time his body sleeps in the dust.

In the context there are three states (as @BobRyan pointed out earlier).

2Co 5:4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

- in the tent of this body.
- clothed in the better, immortal body (at Jesus' coming)
- unclothed.

The "unclothed" state is also referenced here:

2Co 5:2 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling,
2Co 5:3 if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked.

The ultimate goal for the Christian is to be clothed in the new, immortal body at the second coming. So Paul would definitely prefer Jesus come and Paul be changed, in a moment (I Corinthians 15) so that he can go directly from this tent to the permanent dwelling from God. But if not, then he will be found naked.

And even though that naked state is not the preferred, it is still OK, because though it will be absent from the body, it will be at home with the Lord.

Hence, Paul is of good courage regardless:

2Co 5:6 So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord,
2Co 5:7 for we walk by faith, not by sight.
2Co 5:8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Paul walks by faith while away from the Lord, and in the body. And he knows that if he dies, he goes to be with the Lord. And better yet, he wants the Lord to come and receive the new body without having to be in the unclothed state.

LoveGodsWord · Jul 7, 2022

tall73 said:
Yes, we may be getting closer.

The text says that WE would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord

2Co 5:8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

So away from the body does happen at death. We agree on that much.

But, to put it obviously, away from the body, means not in the body. We are not in the body. We are not there. We are elsewhere. So that is not the resurrection, because at the resurrection we ARE in the body.

And We rather be at home with the Lord.

So there is a state that is not in the body, after death, that is also at home with the Lord.

So the spirit that goes back to God is in some real way the "we" spoken of. Paul will be with the Lord, though that doesn't necessarily mean he is awake or aware.

And at the same time his body sleeps in the dust.

In the context there are three states (as @BobRyan pointed out earlier).

2Co 5:4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

- in the tent of this body.
- clothed in the better, immortal body (at Jesus' coming)
- unclothed.

The "unclothed" state is also referenced here:

2Co 5:2 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling,
2Co 5:3 if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked.

The ultimate goal for the Christian is to be clothed in the new, immortal body at the second coming. So Paul would definitely prefer Jesus come and Paul be changed, in a moment (I Corinthians 15) so that he can go directly from this tent to the permanent dwelling from God. But if not, then he will be found naked.

And even though that naked state is not the preferred, it is still OK, because though it will be absent from the body, it will be at home with the Lord.

Hence, Paul is of good courage regardless:

2Co 5:6 So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord,
2Co 5:7 for we walk by faith, not by sight.
2Co 5:8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Paul walks by faith while away from the Lord, and in the body. And he knows that if he dies, he goes to be with the Lord. And better yet, he wants the Lord to come and receive the new body without having to be in the unclothed state.

I generally agree with much of this. The sticking point though to me would be to claim that what returns to God has a rational mind in absence of a body which would make the "breath of life" unconscious according to the scriptures until the resurrection of the dead at the second coming when life has returned to the body.

Thanks for the discussion though. I will need to go out for a little while but will be back latter :wave:

Adventist Heretic · Jul 7, 2022

LoveGodsWord said:
This is really not responsive to the post you are quoting from. There is a fairly detailed response you are disregarding there explaining those scriptures you provided.

just an observation, you are never address the text directly.

tall73 · Jul 7, 2022

Here is Bob's statement that I referenced:

BobRyan said:
2 Cor 5 mentions 3 states -- not two.
1. Present in this decaying tent
2. having no tent at all - naked
3. Clothed in the immortal heavenly body given at the 1 Cor 15 resurrection

LoveGodsWord said:
I generally agree with much of this. The sticking point though to me would be to claim that what returns to God has a rational mind outside of a body that has the mind.

Good, that is progress. So let's talk about the sticking point.

Is a sleeping person bereft of a rational mind, though it is not conscious at that moment?

The spirit is said to "know" when it is in the man.

1Co 2:11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

The dead are said not to "know":

Ecc 9:5a For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing

If Paul's spirit is there, but is sleeping, and doesn't know, why is that an issue? It makes sense of all the texts. Then Paul is away from the body, and at home with the Lord. And he still does not know anything in that state, until the resurrection.

Paul can "depart and be with Christ", rather than "remain in the flesh".

Php 1:23 I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.
Php 1:24 But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account.

This is the only way I see to reconcile all of these texts once you take seriously what "naked", "unclothed", "remain in the flesh", "depart and be with Christ", "absent from the body and at home with the Lord" mean.

It is in that context that I read the following:

Act_7:59 And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”

Stephen knows that he will depart, not remain in the flesh, will be naked, be absent from the body, but at home with the Lord.

There is an essential part of us that goes from the one body, to the new body, and if we are not there at the second coming alive, is also naked, or unclothed. That essential part I am submitting is the spirit formed within us.

Now it may be sleeping. But that doesn't change the illustration of going from tent, to naked, to building.

tall73 · Jul 7, 2022

tall73 · Jul 7, 2022

This is an additional thought, though not Scripture.

A non-material mind makes possible free will outside of the action-reaction cycle of the material realm. Atheist materialists often argue for materialistic determinism because they say that a physical brain cannot escape the action-reaction cycle. So they indicate that the brain is reacting to stimuli, and processing stimuli. And thinking is just what calculating all that stimuli feels like. You are the sum of your experienced stimuli, and the physical reactions to them. Hence, they reject the idea that you can truly decide on a course of action, because the physical is limited to action-reaction.

Of course, the Scriptures say there is a spirit within us. Because it is spirit it is not limited to the physical realm, or an action-reaction paradigm. But it is able to interact with our physical body, and through that, the physical world. We think it strange that materialistic determinists claim that we cannot make decisions because we clearly experience decision making, and this is in line with what God's word says. That we can choose this day whom we will serve. Behavior is not an elaborate, inescapable, determined playing out of response to the various physical stimuli we experience, but is chosen.

The spirit can respond to God, seek and yearn for God:

Isa_26:9 My soul yearns for you in the night; my spirit within me earnestly seeks you. For when your judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.

The spirit is weighed by God, and accountable to Him:

Pro 16:2 All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes, but the LORD weighs the spirit.

tall73 · Jul 8, 2022

Adventist Heretic said:
there was a change at the cross so yes the dead who believe in Christ now can go to heaven, the unbeleaving and the wicked are not in heaven and do not know anything.

I have also thought it is possible that the resurrection of Christ made some change.

But even in Ecclesiastes the spirit returned to God, and this seems to have included saved and unsaved.

And at the same time you have reference to sheol, parallel to hades. Sometimes this seems a realm of the dead, and sometimes the grave. So is this just for the body?

This also gets back to the question of whether spirit and soul are separate. Some texts seem to indicate they are (division of soul and spirit, though the clear implication is that they are so closely related that this is impressive to separate).

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

And others almost seem to make them more parallel, such as here:

Job_7:11 “Therefore I will not restrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.

Isa_26:9 My soul yearns for you in the night; my spirit within me earnestly seeks you. For when your judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.

If you see those in heaven as conscious, how do you relate to the various texts, even after Jesus' resurrection, which talk about sleeping in the context of saints?

1Th 4:14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.

1Co 15:51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Do you see that as representing only the body?

It seems that 1 Thessalonians 4 indicates that He brings with him those who have fallen asleep, bringing them from where He is, which would uphold the notion of something in heaven. But that something still seems asleep. And the body is still sleeping in the dust.

It does get a bit complicated.

tall73 · Jul 8, 2022

Adventist Heretic said:
1Peter 3:19 For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit, 19in whom He also went and preached to the spirits in prison

What prision? What spirit?

It is possible that the spirits in prison here are evil angels, which Peter, and Jude talk about.

1Pe 3:19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison,
1Pe 3:20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.

2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into Tartarus and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

Jud 1:6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day

In which case the prison could be Tartarus.

Of course, that raises the question of how that relates to the days of Noah, when the ark was being prepared. And that usually winds up in a controversial topic of its own:

Gen 6:2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose.
Gen 6:3 Then the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.”
Gen 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.

And then you get into whether not marrying or given in marriage means incapable of procreation, etc.

Adventist Heretic · Jul 8, 2022

tall73 said:
I have also thought it is possible that the resurrection of Christ made some change.

But even in Ecclesiastes the spirit returned to God, and this seems to have included saved and unsaved.

And at the same time you have reference to sheol, parallel to hades. Sometimes this seems a realm of the dead, and sometimes the grave. So is this just for the body?

This also gets back to the question of whether spirit and soul are separate. Some texts seem to indicate they are (division of soul and spirit, though the clear implication is that they are so closely related that this is impressive to separate).

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

And others almost seem to make them more parallel, such as here:

Job_7:11 “Therefore I will not restrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.

Isa_26:9 My soul yearns for you in the night; my spirit within me earnestly seeks you. For when your judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.

If you see those in heaven as conscious, how do you relate to the various texts, even after Jesus' resurrection, which talk about sleeping in the context of saints?

1Th 4:14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.

1Co 15:51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Do you see that as representing only the body?

It seems that 1 Thessalonians 4 indicates that He brings with him those who have fallen asleep, bringing them from where He is, which would uphold the notion of something in heaven. But that something still seems asleep. And the body is still sleeping in the dust.

It does get a bit complicated.

1. the sleep refers to the body in the grave and to those who are in sheol.
2. I think the text about joints & marrow are pretty clear that the soul & spirit are different. once you get that you have to ask what happens to the soul. The soul in my view is like the operating system on a computer. It can be downloaded and stored somewhere. It can be uploaded to the cloud, it this case the spiritual realm. It is the spiritual body that is talked about by paul and the part that is born again.

Adventist Heretic · Jul 8, 2022

tall73 said:
It is possible that the spirits in prison here are evil angels, which Peter, and Jude talk about.

1Pe 3:19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison,
1Pe 3:20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.

2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into Tartarus and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

Jud 1:6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day

In which case the prison could be Tartarus.
pr
Of course, that raises the question of how that relates to the days of Noah, when the ark was being prepared. And that usually winds up in a controversial topic of its own:

Gen 6:2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose.
Gen 6:3 Then the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.”
Gen 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.

And then you get into whether not marrying or given in marriage means incapable of procreation, etc.

the point is that Christ went some where and proclaimed to someone or something at his death. where did he go and how did he get there if he did not have a soul?

SDA Basic Belief 27: God Will Give the Earth to Satan’s Angels

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