k1 chart - open for discussion

DavidPT

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3 1/2 years - exactly - is 1260 days. 1260 days is the most precise expression.

`There is not a set number of days to the expression "time/times/half time". It is close to 1260 days but not exactly. And it varies (in actual days) depending where it is used in the bible.

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

The time/times/half time in that verse is from when the person claims to have achieved God-hood until Jesus returns.



Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

The time/times/half time in that verse is from the beginning of the time of trouble (verse 1) not like anything in Israel's history until Jesus returns. i.e. the great tribulation. Which will last 1335 days, as indicated by Daniel 12:12.



Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

The time/times/half time in that verse is from when Satan is cast down to earth, intensifying the great tribulation because he has great wrath knowing that his time is short - to Jesus's return.


All three places where the time/times/half time are stated - all end with Jesus's return.


time/times/half time does not make mathematical sense unless it is based on 1 + 2 + 1/2 =

(1)1260 + (2)2520 + (1/2)630 = 4410. 4410 divided by 1260 = 3.5.

(1 year)360 days + (2 years)720 days + (1/2 year)180 days = 1260 days. 1260 divided by 360 = 3.5.

(3.5)42 months + (7)84 months + (1.75)21 months = 147 months. 147 divided by 42 = 3.5. --- 3.5 + 7 + 1.75 = 12.5. 12.5 divided by 3.5 = 3.5.
 
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Douggg

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time/times/half time does not make mathematical sense unless it is based on 1 + 2 + 1/2 =

(1)1260 + (2)2520 + (1/2)630 = 4410. 4410 divided by 1260 = 3.5.
If you were treating the time/times/half time as a mathematical equation - yes. But in bible prophecy, it is not a mathematical equation.

It is very common thing for people to do to convert the 42 months and time/times/half time to both equate to 1260 days. Without every giving in thought to why three different time expressions instead of just one, the 1260 days.

In Revelation 11, in verse 2 is 42 months, then in the very next verse a different time expression of 1260 days. Two different time expressions - for two different segments of the 7 years.
 
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keras

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I agree that there has to be biblical rationale behind whatever a chart shows. I have never said any chart in and of itself is proof. The charts are to promote understanding - not proof.

The chart reflects that there are three different time expressions used in Revelation - and not just one of 1260 days.
View attachment 317762
I [and the Bible] disagree with your idea of the two Witnesses preaching in the first half of the final 7 years of this age.
Proved in 2 ways:
Revelation 11:2-3 tells us the Temple and the city will be given over to the ungodly peoples for 42 months and the 2W will preach, dressed in sackcloth for those 1260 days.
This starts at the mid point of the 7 years, when the AC sits in the Temple.

The 2 Witnesses are killed and lie dead for 3 1/2 days, then there is a violent earthquake, Rev 11:13
This earthquake will occur when Jesus Returns; Revelation 16:18
 
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Douggg

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I [and the Bible] disagree with your idea of the two Witnesses preaching in the first half of the final 7 years of this age.
Proved in 2 ways:
Revelation 11:2-3 tells us the Temple and the city will be given over to the ungodly peoples for 42 months and the 2W will preach, dressed in sackcloth for those 1260 days.
This starts at the mid point of the 7 years, when the AC sits in the Temple.

The 2 Witnesses are killed and lie dead for 3 1/2 days, then there is a violent earthquake, Rev 11:13
This earthquake will occur when Jesus Returns; Revelation 16:18
The two witnesses will be testifying at the temple for 1260 days.

For a different segment of time on the timeline, the 42 months, the nations will have control of the city of Jerusalem trodding it down under the rulership of the beast - and not in the control of the Jews of their city of Jerusalem.

keras, you have the world exchanging gifts one to another, celebrating the deaths of the two witnesses - the 3 1/2 days right before Jesus descends down to earth in Revelation 19.

That is irrational because the nations of the world at that time will be preparing for the greatest war of all times, and in Zechariah 14, the armies of the world will be rampaging the city, and a mass build in the land of Israel, to make war on Jesus.

Zechariah 14l2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
 
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Douggg

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@keras


upload_2022-7-2_15-45-4.jpeg
 
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eclipsenow

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3.5 or 3 1/2 years is not a term stated in Revelation. The "time/times/half times" is the closest thing to it, but is not "exactly'' 3 1/2 years.
It's the same thing
 
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Jeffwhosoever

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Why would the 2 witnesses start at the beginning of tribulation when the world is supposedly at peace and the Antichrist doesn't start attacking until the 2nd half? I'm not sure exactly how it fits with the 2nd return of the Lord in glory, but I'm with Keras on the 2nd witnesses testify during the Great tribulation, the 2nd half of tribulation.
 
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Douggg

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Why would the 2 witnesses start at the beginning of tribulation when the world is supposedly at peace and the Antichrist doesn't start attacking until the 2nd half?
Because the Jews will need to be informed of what is to come, so that they can flee to the mountains when the abomination of desolation statue image is setup on the temple mount.

The two witnesses will be testifying to the Jews that they have made a terrible mistake in thinking the prince who shall come, the little horn person, is their messiah.

There is no possible way that anyone is going to be exchanging gifts with one another at the very end of the great tribulation, in that environment.
 
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keras

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The two witnesses will be testifying at the temple for 1260 days.
Yes; the second half of the final seven years.
For a different segment of time on the timeline, the 42 months, the nations will have control of the city of Jerusalem trodding it down under the rulership of the beast - and not in the control of the Jews of their city of Jerusalem.
The same period of time as the Anti-Christ has world control.
Paralleled by Zechariah 14:1-2, the prophecy about his conquest of the people in the holy Land.
There is a gap of 1260 days between Zech 14:2 and verse 3.
keras, you have the world exchanging gifts one to another, celebrating the deaths of the two witnesses - the 3 1/2 days right before Jesus descends down to earth in Revelation 19.
That is correct.
What a shock for them when Jesus Returns and calls the 2 Witnesses up to Him!
That is irrational because the nations of the world at that time will be preparing for the greatest war of all times,
Armageddon is merely a disposal operation for Jesus. An annihilation by the Sword of His Word.

What is irrational, is your insistence on the Jews still living in Jerusalem and their eventual redemption.
Revelation 12:6-17 prove that idea wrong, as it will be Christians who must stay in Jerusalem for that second half of 1260 days.
Those Christians who refused the peace treaty will; be taken to a place of safety, those who violated the Covenant; must remain; Rev 12:14 and 17, respectively.
As Daniel 11:32 plainly tells us.
Because the Jews will need to be informed of what is to come, so that they can flee to the mountains when the abomination of desolation statue image is setup on the temple mount
The Jews fulfilled the prophecy of their fleeing in 66 AD.
The two witnesses will be testifying to the Jews that they have made a terrible mistake in thinking the prince who shall come, the little horn person, is their messiah.
This idea is Douggish nonsense.
The witnesses preach to the ungodly minions of the Anti-Christ.
The Jews are gone from the holy Land at the Sixth Seal.
I do not see that anyone will think the Anti_Christ is the Messiah.
There is no possible way that anyone is going to be exchanging gifts with one another at the very end of the great tribulation, in that environment.
Revelation 11:13 describes an situation quite different than you envisage. Yes: the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls have happened, but by then; It seems like a fairly normal city, except for when Jesus Returns and causes an earthquake that kills 7000 people.
 
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Douggg

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This idea is Douggish nonsense.
The witnesses preach to the ungodly minions of the Anti-Christ.
The Jews are gone from the holy Land at the Sixth Seal.
I do not see that anyone will think the Anti_Christ is the Messiah.
Take a look at the text. Is is the beast who kills them. The person is no longer the Antichrist but has become the beast. He becomes the beast near the end of the first half.

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

The beast makes war on the two witnesses. He overcomes them, and kills them.

Now look at what the people of the world say about the beast in Revelation 13 before he begins his 42 months reign.


4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

They are saying that because the beast had just made war on the two witnesses and killed them.

I do not see that anyone will think the Anti_Christ is the Messiah.

The Jews are looking for the messiah (someone other than Jesus, who they reject). That is common knowledge in all Judaism circles. The messiah to them is the future great King of Israel, to lead them and the world into the messianic age of peace and safety.

That person will be the little horn person of Daniel 7 and 8, as the prince who shall come following Gog/Magog.

"Christ the King of Israel" from Mark 15:32, talking about Jesus.

"Blessed is the King of Israel, that cometh in the name of the Lord" from John 12:13, talking about Jesus.

The "Anti" christ will be another who comes in his own name, and will be anointed the King of Israel. Being the beast is after the person's stint of being the King of Israel.

the little horn > the prince who shall come > the Antichrist > the revealed man of sin > the beast

.
 
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Douggg

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The Jews fulfilled the prophecy of their fleeing in 66 AD.
No, the instructions to flee when the abomination of desolation is standing in the holy place is in the end times. The abomination of desolation is end times, not first century.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

......

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

It is talking about Jews, who's religious practice is not to travel but only so far on the sabbath.
 
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keras

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Take a look at the text. Is is the beast who kills them. The person is no longer the Antichrist but has become the beast. He becomes the beast near the end of the first half.
Yes, the 'beast' kills the 2 Witnesses. Or, more likely: he orders his troops to do it.
The 'beast' is only revealed as the Anti-Christ when he sits in the Temple and declares himself to be God.
At the exact mid point of the final 7 years. When Satan gets thrown out of heaven. Revelation 12:7-9
Your wrong opinion.
Revelation 13:4 does not say the 'beast' has killed anybody. The people just say: Who is like the beast, who can fight against him?
The Jews are looking for the messiah
The Jews are no longer in the picture. Only a remnant will remain to re-join with their Christian brethren.

The false teaching of a general Jewish redemption, colours and confuses the end time beliefs of many, especially those who like to think the Lord will rapture them to heaven, despite them having never been Judged or their faith tested, as the Prophesies say we will be.
anointed the King of Israel
More Douggishness!
Nowhere does the scriptures say there will be another King of Israel. Or Judah. John 12:13 is past history.
When Jesus Returns, He will be King over the whole world. Revelation 19:16
It is talking about Jews, who's religious practice is not to travel but only so far on the sabbath.
Matthew 24:15-22 is end times Prophecy. It does not mention Jews at all.
The people living in Judea and in all of the holy Land at that time will be Christians from every tribe, race nation and language, Gods Chosen people, [John 15:16, 1 Peter 2:9-10] as Matthew 24:22 says.
 
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Douggg

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Your wrong opinion.
Revelation 13:4 does not say the 'beast' has killed anybody. The people just say: Who is like the beast, who can fight against him?
Where-else does it say in Revelation that the beast has made war on anyone - other than the two witnesses, that the world celebrates their deaths?

The two witnesses fight against the beast for 75 days as the Jews flee to the mountains. Until their 1260 days end and then the beast kills them.





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Douggg

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The Jews are no longer in the picture. Only a remnant will remain to re-join with their Christian brethren.
The Jews are occupying the land of Israel, the nation of Israel, ever since May 14, 1948 a nation born in a day, fulfilling Isaiah 66:7-8.
More Douggishness!
Nowhere does the scriptures say there will be another King of Israel. Or Judah. John 12:13 is past history.
When Jesus Returns, He will be King over the whole world. Revelation 19:16
John 5:43, Jesus indicated that they reject Him coming in the name of the Lord, but will accept another coming in his own name.

Jerusalem, the Jews, will not see Jesus again until they say blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
 
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Douggg

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On that table, the creator of it got mixed up - on one item, wrong columns. He should have wrote in the blue column (state) - "Not as stable as nation". And in the gray column (nation) - "More stable than a state".


upload_2022-7-3_1-26-6.png


Anyway, the Jews (Judaism) tell me that Israel in exile, was a nation in exile. Which their identification as being the Jewish ethnic group fits the description of a nation in that table.

The name of Israel will not be changed to Beulah - in the same sense that Jacob's name was changed to Israel.

There will be no nation "Beulah". The nation over there will continue as "Israel".

No new nation building is going to take the place of the nation of Israel present over.
 
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trophy33

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Anyway, the Jews (Judaism) tell me that Israel in exile, was a nation in exile. Which their identification as being the Jewish ethnic group fits the description of a nation in that table.

The name of Israel will not be changed to Beulah - in the same sense that Jacob's name was changed to Israel.

There will be no nation "Beulah". The nation over there will continue as "Israel".

No new nation building is going to take the place of the nation of Israel present over.
I do not understand what you are saying. Anyway, in 1948 the secular state of Israel was born, yes, in one day, as any other state. Every state has the first day of existence.
 
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Douggg

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I do not understand what you are saying
Go to that link. See at the top of the blue column "state" ? Does it makes sense to say a state is "Not as stable as a state" ?
 
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Go to that link. See at the top of the blue column "state" ? Does it makes sense to say a state is "Not as stable as a state" ?
Yes, this one I understand and agree that they got it wrong. I meant I do not understand the rest of your post about Israel.
 
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