Is being filled with the Spirit a conscious experience?

aiki said:

2 Corinthians 5:7
7 for we walk by faith, not by sight.

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1 Corinthians 2:3-5
3 And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, 4 and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God

Mark 16:17-18
17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

Acts of the Apostles 1:8
8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

1 Corinthians 14:1
Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.

aiki said:

I think you may have forgotten what I wrote a couple of posts back:

"There are, though, rare instances where the Spirit, moving through a righteous, submitted believer, acts powerfully to some supernatural purpose: conviction, salvation, reconciliation, healing, etc."

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Good reminder. It's great to know that you at least concede that those experiences do occur. But remember that I shared those passages in response to a blanket statement you had previously made in post #31. Quote:


It seems to me that you are conflating terminology. This thread is about the experience of being filled with the Spirit, yet none of the passages you have cited (2 Timothy 2:21; 1 Corinthians 1:30; James 4:7-10; Romans 6:13-22; Romans 12:1) uses this expression. Instead, they speak about righteousness, sanctification and consecration, which are of utmost importance -- don't get me wrong -- but denote different concepts.

In other words, you are conflating the life-long process of sanctification with the experience of being filled with the Spirit. In fact, practically every single time the expression "filled with the Spirit" is used, from the context it becomes rather clear that a concrete experience is being described (see verses below), so I fail to see how the conflation of concepts you propose can possibly be exegetically justified:

Luke 1:67
And his father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied, saying

Acts of the Apostles 13:52
And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.

Acts of the Apostles 13:9
But Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked intently at him

Acts of the Apostles 9:17
So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”

Acts of the Apostles 7:54
But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.

Acts of the Apostles 4:31
And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness.

Acts of the Apostles 4:8
Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders,

Acts of the Apostles 2:4
And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.


These were concrete experiences, not long subconscious life-long processes.

aiki said:

Are you seeking a special filling by the Spirit so that you might better preach the Gospel?

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I mean, of course, that's the whole point of the promise made in Acts 1:8, isn't it?

8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

The power of the Holy Spirit is essential to be able to be an effective witness to the rest of the world.

aiki said:

Speaking of Christ, God in the flesh, this circumstance was unique. But does "filling" here mean the sort of rare occurrence where the Spirit moved, for short periods, in and through people to save the lost, or lend authority to the teaching of the apostles, or overcome demonic opposition to the establishment of the Early Church? I don't think so. We see no sign that Jesus did anything overtly remarkable as a consequence of being filled from the womb with the Holy Spirit until he was twelve. And then it was only that he was going back-and-forth in the temple with the Rabbis about Jewish doctrine; no healings, or exorcisms, or calming stormy seas, no resurrections, or forgiving of sins. As well, Christ's filling was a continual thing, never abating, the Spirit departing for a time and returning, or filling and then subsiding within him.

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This is not really an objection, in my view. We all agree that Jesus Christ was an optimal/ideal/perfect example of how to walk in the Spirit. He was in a constant state of fullness and guidance of the Holy Spirit. Likewise, Jesus Christ lived a perfect sinless spotless life. Both are desirable goals. Of course, no one has ever been able to replicate the perfect lifestyle of Jesus Christ, but this doesn't mean that we shouldn't aspire to get as close to that as possible. In fact, Paul got very close:

1 Corinthians 11:1
Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.

aiki said:

The progressive filling I described in earlier posts is the far more common sort of filling a born-again believer should expect and pursue.

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The verbatim expression "filled with the Spirit" is never used with the connotation of "progressive filling" you suggest in any passage in the Bible, as far as I'm aware. Once again, I think you are conflating the concept of being "filled with the Spirit" with the concept of "sanctification". They are not the same thing, as far as the exegesis of Biblical texts is concerned. If you disagree, then please share a single passage where the expression "filled with the Spirit" is used to mean "a long, subtle, subconscious, life-long process of sanctification".

Now, Paul was very explicit in his exhortation to seek this filling of the Spirit in Ephesians 5:18

Ephesians 5:18
And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

You may find the following commentaries of interest (taken from Ephesians 5:18 Commentaries: And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit,)

From Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers:
But be filled with the Spirit.—The antithesis is startling, but profoundly instructive. To the artificial and degrading excitement of drunkenness St. Paul boldly opposes the divine enthusiasm of the Spirit, one form of which was scoffingly compared to it on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:13). He is not content with warning us of its ruinous excess, or urging the strictness of stern self-restraint. Drunkenness comes from an unnatural craving for excitement, stimulated by unwholesome conditions of life, physical and mental. He would satisfy the craving, so far as it is natural, by a divine enthusiasm, brighter and stronger than even duty to God and man, breaking out in thanksgiving, adoration, and love.

From Benson Commentary:
But be ye filled with the Spirit — In all his graces, which gives a joy unspeakably more delightful, exhilarating, and permanent, than that which is produced by the fumes of wine. The antithesis is beautiful. The lewd votaries of Bacchus fill themselves with wine; but be ye filled with the Spirit. In which precept there is this remarkable propriety, that our Lord had represented the influences of the Spirit, (which he invited all who thirsted for them, to come to him and receive,) under the emblem of rivers of living water, which he commanded believers to drink plentifully, John 7:37-39.

From Meyer's NT Commentary:
ἀλλὰ πληροῦσθε ἐν πνεύματι] but become full by the Spirit. The imperative passive finds its explanation in the possibility of resistance to the Holy Spirit and of the opposite fleshly endeavour; and ἐν is instrumental, as at Ephesians 1:23; Php 4:19. The contrast lies not in οἶνος and πνεῦμα (Grotius, Harless, Olshausen, and others), because otherwise the text must have run μὴ οἴνῳ μεθύσκ., ἀλλʼ ἐν πνεύματι πληρ., but in the two states—that of intoxication and that of inspiration. This opposition is only in appearance strange (in opposition to de Wette), and has its sufficient ground in the excitement of the person inspired and its utterances (comp. Acts 2:13).

From Pulpit Commentary:
But be filled with the Spirit. Instead of resorting to wine to cheer and animate you, throw your hearts open the Holy Spirit, so that he may come and fill them; seek the joy that the Spirit inspires when he makes you to sit with Christ in heavenly places, so that, instead of pouring out your joyous feelings in bacchanalian songs, you may do so in Christian hymns. Ephesians 5:18


I see broad agreement among commentators that Paul is encouraging a conscious experience of the Holy Spirit. Not a subtle, subconscious, life-long process that you will only notice decades from now.

aiki said:

I'm not sure what you're point is in posting these verses. Are you intimating that God's word is in conflict with itself?

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Sorry. It was sloppy of me to not have provided commentary in addition to the verses.
I was not suggesting that the verses were, in fact, in contradiction. Rather, my point was to refute your interpretation of the passages you had previously cited, by showing that said interpretation is inconsistent with the passages I cited.

In post #39 you said:


I notice two things:

1. You are once again employing your trademark word "sensual", which is a loaded term that you seem to employ in a pejorative way to dismiss all conscious spiritual experiences with the Holy Spirit, as if something cannot be consciously experienced unless it is sensual, which is an unjustified description and oversimplification of all conscious spiritual experiences.
2. You are presenting a false dichotomy. You are unjustifiedly contraposing seeking more of the Holy Spirit with walking by faith, as if the two were mutually exclusive. This is false. You can perfectly walk by faith and seek more of the Holy Spirit at the same time. Paul did it. The Apostles did it. The Early Church did it. Jesus did it. In fact, you need to have faith in the first place in order to seek more of God, so pursuing these things activates your faith and can only increase it. I don't see the problem.

aiki said:

How did Paul's words and message demonstrate the Spirit and his divine power? He actually goes on to explain:

1 Corinthians 2:7
7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.

1 Corinthians 2:12-13
12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.
13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

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You are misinterpreting Paul. In verses 4 and 5 he states that he did NOT speak words of wisdom when he preached the gospel to the unconverted Corinthians, during evangelism. Instead, he won them for Christ through the power of God. This is contrasted with the wisdom that is imparted among the mature (verse 6):

1 Corinthians 2:6
Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away

So the verses you cited are talking about a different context (wisdom imparted to the mature), not the power of the Holy Spirit during evangelism (verses 4 & 5).

I would highly recommend you read the commentaries found in this link: 1 Corinthians 2:4 Commentaries: and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,

Below two examples:

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
And my speech, and my preaching,.... As he determined, so he acted. As the subject matter of his ministry was not any of the liberal arts and sciences, or the philosophy and dry morality of the Gentiles, but salvation by a crucified Christ; so his style, his diction, his language used in preaching,
was not with enticing words of man's wisdom; with technical words, words of art, contrived by human wisdom to captivate the affections; and with bare probable arguments only, a show of reason to persuade the mind to an assent, when nothing solid and substantial is advanced, only a run of words artfully put together, without any strength of argument in them; a method used by the false teachers, and which the apostle here strikes at, and tacitly condemns:

but in demonstration of the Spirit, and of power; partly by making use of solid proofs out of the writings of the Old Testament, indited by the Spirit of God, and which amounted to a demonstration of the truths he delivered; and partly by signs, and wonders, and miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, those extraordinary instances of divine power, which greatly confirmed the doctrines he preached: and besides all these, the Spirit of God wonderfully assisted him in his work, both as to words and matter; directing him, what to say, and in what form, in words, not which human wisdom taught, but which the Holy Ghost taught; and accompanying his ministry with his power, to the conversion, comfort, edification, and salvation of many.


Matthew Poole's Commentary
But in demonstration of the Spirit; by which Grotius and some others understand miracles, by which the doctrine of the gospel was at first confirmed; but Vorstius and many others better understand by it the Holy Ghost’s powerful and inward persuasion of men’s minds, of the truth of what was preached by Paul. All ministers’ preaching makes propositions of gospel truth appear no more than probable; the Spirit only demonstrates them, working in souls such a persuasion and confirmation of the truth of them, as the soul can no longer deny or dispute, or withstand the conviction of them.

And of power: by this term also some understand the power of working miracles; but it is much better by others interpreted of that authority, which the word of God preached by Paul had, and preached by faithful ministers still hath, upon the souls and consciences of those that hear it. As it is said, Matthew 7:29, Christ taught them as one having authority. And it is said of Stephen, Acts 6:10, They were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spake. So the gospel preached by Paul came to people, not in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance, 1 Thessalonians 1:5: and was quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart, Hebrews 4:12. And thus every faithful minister, with whose labours God goeth along in the conversion of souls, yet preacheth in the demonstration of the Spirit and of power. Nor indeed call those miracles, by which Christ and his apostles confirmed the truth of the doctrine of the gospel, though they were a mighty proof, be, in any propriety of speech, called a demonstration; which, properly, is a proof in which the mind fully acquiesceth, so that it no longer denieth or disputeth the thing so proved, but gives a firm and full assent to it: the miracles wrought by Christ himself never had that effect; the Pharisees and the generality of the Jews believed not that Christ was the true Messiah and the Son of God, not withstanding his miracles. Nothing but the inward powerful impression of the Spirit of God, persuading the heart of the truth of gospel principles, can possibly amount to a demonstration, bringing the minds of men, though never so judicious and prepared, to a certainty of the thing revealed, and a rest, so as they can no longer deny, resist, dispute, or contradict it. With this Paul’s preaching was attended, not to every individual person to whom he preached, but to many, even as many as should be saved: he delivered the doctrine of the gospel freely, plainly, and boldly, not resting upon the force of his rhetoric and persuasive words, nor yet upon the natural force of his reasoning and argumentation; but leaving the demonstration and evidencing of the truth of what he said to the powerful internal impression and persuasion of the holy and blessed Spirit of God, who worketh powerfully.

aiki said:

In all of the record of the New Testament, where do we read of the things spelled out in Mark 16:17-18? Why don't we read of these things following constantly after all born-again believers, as the passage in Mark seems to suggest should be the case? Instead, we read of Epaphroditus and Trophimus falling ill (Philippians 2:25-27; 2 Timothy 4:20) without supernatural cure. Paul writes to Timothy that he should "take a little wine for the sake of his stomach," not expect instant, miraculous healing (1 Timothy 5:23). Dorcas, a believer "full of good works and charity," fell ill and died, none of her fellow believers able to prevent her decease (Acts 9:36-41). Only when the apostle Peter showed up was she revived. What, then, of this idea that Mark 16:17-18 is a blanket promise/statement to all believers? Taken this way, it simply doesn't correspond to the rest of God's word.

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We can make sense of Mark 16:17-18 as a promise made to the body of Christ as a whole. In other words, the whole body of Christ would manifest these signs (corporately, as a whole). 1 Corinthians 12 sheds more light on how the gifts and manifestations of the Spirit are specifically distributed among believers:

1 Corinthians 12:27-30
27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts.

aiki said:

Acts 1:8 quotes a promise given by Jesus particularly to the Eleven whom he had appointed his apostles (Acts 1:2). And so, we see in Acts that no other believers (except Paul, an apostle "born out of due time") had the scope of Spirit-empowerment the apostles displayed (the occasion with Dorcas being a good case-in-point).

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Restricting the promise of Acts 1:8 only to the apostles is debatable. See Is the promise of "power" in Acts 1:8 only for the apostles or for Christians in all ages?

Guojing said:

Those whom that promise was made, obeyed Jesus in everything he commanded them (Matthew 28:20) when Jesus was with them.

For example, Luke 12

32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.

The early church actually did that in Acts 2:44-45, Acts 4:32.

Are you actually doing that?

And please don't give the usual cliche reply "All my possessions belong to God, the moment he tells me in a clear audible voice to give everything up, I will!"

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Good objection. This shows that we cannot use blanket statements, and whether a specific command or promise made 2000 years ago can be generalized to all Christendom or not must be decided on a case by case basis. This works both ways though. If Luke 12:33 does not apply to all Christians, it does not follow that Acts 1:8 does not apply to all Christians. Likewise, if Acts 1:8 does apply to all Christians, it does not follow that Luke 12:33 necessarily also applies to all Christians. This has to be analyzed case by case.

Whether Acts 1:8 applies to all Christians or not is debatable. See Is the promise of "power" in Acts 1:8 only for the apostles or for Christians in all ages?

Guojing said:

Matthew 28:20 had a specific instruction from the resurrected Christ to all his listeners, including those receiving Acts 1:8

If they are to teach others to obey EVERYTHING he commanded them to do when he was with them, everything must mean everything, including Luke 12:33.

Of course, when it specifically comes to money, I understand why many of us will want to become "mid-acts dispensationalists" =)

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Do you personally obey Luke 12:33? What is your position on Luke 12:33?