What is wrong with Calvinism ?

zoidar said:

We can agree or disagree that repentance is a deed, but what does it matter? What matter is what Paul refers to when he says "deed". If we don't understand what Paul means by "deed" we can't understand his writing. If the Bible says repentance isn't a "deed" it isn't a deed from Biblical language, whatever we now may think about it. Got the point?

It's the same with "pleasing to God" and "grace". What does the Bible refer to as pleasing to God?
How does the Bible describe grace? We can't assume that it means this or this without looking how the Bible uses it. That's the point.

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Agreed. So do you mean with that to imply that the Bible says repentance isn't a "deed"?

Mark Quayle said:

Aren't you going a little overboard? It's almost like you are missing @Clare73 's point on purpose.

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I just responded to her comment that Paul is our pattern.

Did you know that Jonah was an extremist? He went a little overboard too!

Mark Quayle said:

Yes, most graces are resistible. That is hardly the point.

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Is there a grace stated to be irresistible in scripture?

Mark Quayle said:

The grace of God in regenerating a person, to include generating salvific faith, (real faith), is done to a totally unable will, without involving a decision by that disabled will, REBIRTH, changing the will, changing the disposition.

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Paul says faith comes by hearing the word of God. You conject (as in show no scripture) that the Holy Spirit cannot draw a willing person to Himself as is - because you conject man remains unwilling until he is re-born.

Mark Quayle said:

Remember, again, that the sinful flesh cannot submit (humbly or otherwise) to God's law. Responding in humility to the conviction of the Holy Spirit is not real, if it is not the Holy Spirit in you doing it in you. The sinful flesh cannot please God. And without faith, it is impossible to please God.

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Man has both spirit and flesh. Paul shows that his own flesh (AKA body) is not born-again and cannot please God in 1 Corinthians 9:27. The Holy Spirit communicates with man's spirit per Proverbs 20:27 - so your flesh analogy does not apply.


We do know that man's will is involved in salvation as Peter's Holy Spirit led preaching pleads with men and even promises salvation (remission of sin and receipt of the Holy Spirit) to those who respond with repentance and baptism in Acts 2:38-39. Receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit results in both being born-again and saved.

Mark Quayle said:

So either way around you go, at the very least God knew, but created anyhow. So there is no need for a doctrine of 'uncaused free will' decisions. That doctrine cannot excuse God for what he did.

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I share the belief with those who say God knew it as a possibility but not a certainty.

John Mullally said:

Is there a grace stated to be irresistible in scripture?
Paul says faith comes by hearing the word of God. You conject (as in show no scripture) that the Holy Spirit cannot draw a willing person to Himself as is - because you conject man remains unwilling until he is re-born.

Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.​

Man has both spirit and flesh. Paul shows that his own flesh (AKA body) is not born-again and cannot please God in 1 Corinthians 9:27. The Holy Spirit communicates with man's spirit per Proverbs 20:27 - so your flesh analogy does not apply.

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

Proverbs 20:27 The spirit of a man is the lamp of the LORD, Searching all the inner depths of his heart.​

We do know that man's will is involved in salvation as Peter's Holy Spirit led preaching pleads with men and even promises salvation (remission of sin and receipt of the Holy Spirit) to those who respond with repentance and baptism in Acts 2:38-39. Receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit results in both being born-again and saved.

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Grace can be frustrated. There is a Scripture that says "We do not frustrate the grace of God" (Galatians 2:21). The grace of God can be frustrated by those trying to be righteous before God through the law. This applies to those who teach that people need to follow certain moral laws, usually formulated by their particular religious ideals in order to be truly righteous before God, and those people will deny communion to those who do not conform to the church's moral ideals. This is frustrating the grace of God by denying it to the members they identify as not coming up to the church's standard of holiness. In this way they are forcing members to try and be righteous before God through moral law, and Paul says that is frustrating the grace of God.

So, the grace of God can be frustrated and blocked in the lives of people through false teaching and forceable compliance with a set of ideals formulated by a religious "church" which is not a real church but a synagogue of Satan.

Mark Quayle said:

He was wrong the first time, and failed. I don't see him succeeding in the next attempt by the same tactics.

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More like he decided not to waste his time on you. In my case, I understand the issue just not interested enough to have a conversation about it.

Clare73 said:

Paul is the pattern. . .

How was Paul reborn?

Did he believe that Jesus died for his sin when he got knocked off that horse?

No, he did not. . .his faith in Jesus Christ was the result of God's work, not its cause.

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I had another thought about Paul being a pattern for us. He said, "I want you to be followers of me as I follow Christ." If we link it with what Peter said about Christ leaving us an example for us to follow, which shows that the example that Christ left for us was according to his suffering. Therefore if Christ suffered, so will we if we are truly identified with Him. Therefore Paul followed Christ's example, and therefore identifies with Christ's sufferings, and he details the extreme suffering he went through.

Therefore the pattern that Paul set for us is that if we are to live godly in Christ, then we will suffer along with Him. This is why He said, that in this world we will have tribulation. and that those who live godly in Christ will suffer persecution.

John Mullally said:

Is there a grace stated to be irresistible in scripture?

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John 6:44 says that only by the drawing of the Spirit of God, can anyone be saved. It is often suggested by Reformers and Calvinists that a better term would be Effectual Grace, since the question is not whether even the grace of regeneration can be resisted, but whether those God has elected will eventually be regenerated. They indeed will. Every last one of them.

But further, it is not by THEIR decision and effort that the Spirit does his work, but by God's decision and work.

John 6:37-39 All that the Father gives me will come to me
Romans 8:28-30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

John Mullally said:

Paul says faith comes by hearing the word of God. You conject (as in show no scripture) that the Holy Spirit cannot draw a willing person to Himself as is - because you conject man remains unwilling until he is re-born.

Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

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I have repeatedly explained that they are one and the same thing. Man's will is changed when God draws him, but man does not change his own will.

John Mullally said:

Man has both spirit and flesh. Paul shows that his own flesh (AKA body) is not born-again and cannot please God in 1 Corinthians 9:27. The Holy Spirit communicates with man's spirit per Proverbs 20:27 - so your flesh analogy does not apply.

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

Proverbs 20:27 The spirit of a man is the lamp of the LORD, Searching all the inner depths of his heart.

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What flesh analogy? The mind, or heart, of flesh is a scriptural concept. I didn't make it up. Analogy?? Of course the flesh is never born again in this life! I never implied otherwise.

John Mullally said:

We do know that man's will is involved in salvation as Peter's Holy Spirit led preaching pleads with men and even promises salvation (remission of sin and receipt of the Holy Spirit) to those who respond with repentance and baptism in Acts 2:38-39. Receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit results in both being born-again and saved.

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Man's will is not the active cause of regeneration. You yourself have said that the Spirit of God draws the lost. They do not first ask to be drawn. This is by the choice and act of God. That draw is the change of will. It can be all at once, and it can take years. In fact, it can even happen without the person realizing it is happening.

A further point, that I don't often hear made even in Reformed circles: The Arminian talks of prevenient grace. The "draw" is part of what they are referring to by Prevenient Grace. But the draw, by the Holy Spirit, is not partial in the sense that it is ALL of Grace, and ALL of truth. It IS the regeneration that I have consistently been claiming is complete in that it is of the Holy Spirit, who is altogether whole and complete. But it can take years. The point at which man first makes an active choice of submission is not the point at which regeneration begins, but, rather, an affirmation that regeneration has already happened. It is the beginning of the new life, though to my thinking, even that has begun before that point. It is the first of a continuing line of the repeating practice of submission.

And that submission is not the point at which God says, "now he is mine". That has already been done. And it is, or it is not, submission! If it is by the indwelling Spirit of God, it is submission. If it is not, it remains enmity to God. If one is regenerated, the Spirit of God compels and substantiates the submission.

Of course man's will is affected! Of course man's heart desires God upon regeneration,

Greg Cheney said:

I share the belief with those who say God knew it as a possibility but not a certainty.

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I would like to see that developed philosophically. I don't think it can be done, consistently, logically, because it MUST depend on mere chance, at some point, which is a logically self-contradicting construct.

Watchman1 said:

I just responded to her comment that Paul is our pattern.

Did you know that Jonah was an extremist? He went a little overboard too!

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I heard of a man who they say always called a spade a spade,-----------until he dropped it on his foot!

Mark Quayle said:

Agreed. So do you mean with that to imply that the Bible says repentance isn't a "deed"?

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I'm implying the Bible doesn't say repentance is a "deed". Not that it specifically says it isn't a deed. It speaks from its absence.

Mark Quayle said:

"Right then and there" you experienced something. That doesn't mean that God had not already regenerated you.

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In that case we are not saved when we are regenerated.

I was saved when I prayed. How do I know that? I know how "fish tastes", that is how. It's just a knowing. Still couldn't I be wrong? Not much in life comes with 100% certainty, neither do this, but I'm as sure as a person can be sure.

zoidar said:

I'm not sure...

You don't think this is the moment of salvation?

So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” And immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he regained his sight, and he got up and was baptized;
— Acts 9:17-18

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Good question. . .I think all of them occur in concordance over a period of time, and I'm not sure any one can be teased out any better than that, except for the particular filling with (rebirth of) the Holy Spirit, which can be a powerful experience and can last for some time.

Mark Quayle said:

Lol, I've heard that one too, actually; because, they insist, if imputing Christ's righteousness to us is done without consulting us for our permission, it is forcing.

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Then they must not have it. . .because if you have it, you don't feel that way about it at all. . .call it what Foolishness may call it, I see it as a gift! Hallelujah!

Watchman1 said:

Let me get this straight. So Paul is the pattern for all of us? For you? So, are you an Apostle of Christ, called to plant churches in pagan countries, and have a signs and wonders ministry? If not, then how can Paul be part of a pattern in some things and not others?

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C'mon, guy. . .you can do better than that. . .this isn't rocket science.

The same way I can be a pattern for swimming but not ice skating.

Paul considered himself a pattern (1 Corinthians 11:1; Acts 26:29; 1 Thessalonians 2:6).

Greg Cheney said:

The Bible does not teach that God decides for us - he grieves when we do not submit to him. Imagine a God grieving for those he chose to damn. Calvinist "grace" is not the grace of the Bible.

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It is in Acts 13:48: ". . .and all who were appointed for eternal life believed."

John Mullally said:

Is there a grace stated to be irresistible in scripture?

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Mark Quayle said:

John 6:44 says that only by the drawing of the Spirit of God, can anyone be saved. It is often suggested by Reformers and Calvinists that a better term would be Effectual Grace, since the question is not whether even the grace of regeneration can be resisted, but whether those God has elected will eventually be regenerated. They indeed will. Every last one of them.

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Irresistible Grace was a losing idea - so you repackage it. But now its 'TULEP'. That does not work. How about shuffling the letters to get 'LET UP'. Another way of thinking about is that you make a change from "LIT UP" to "LET UP" - probably not.

Mark Quayle said:

But further, it is not by THEIR decision and effort that the Spirit does his work, but by God's decision and work.

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God wants all to be saved and even John MacArthur and John Piper agree to that. Per your doctrine, the Holy Spirit elects one by changing their will without their consent. But then He passes over another one – effectively sentencing him to eternal fire. I don't see that making it into any online church doctrinal statements because its repulsive.

Mark Quayle said:

John 6:37-39 All that the Father gives me will come to me.

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This does not mean man’s will is not involved. In John 6 we see Jesus, who humbled himself (Phil 2:8) to walk this earth, disputes with the crowd of Jews that followed Him because He miraculously fed them the day before. Jesus repulses the crowd saying this and “unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you” which appears to drive off everyone except the twelve the Father gave him in response to prayer in Luke 6:12-13. Someone said He turned a mega-church into a bible study.

Mark Quayle said:

Romans 8:28-30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

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In Ephesians 1:1-6 Peter addresses the “Faithful in Christ” and says they are predestined to all spiritual blessings in the the heavens.

John Mullally said:

Paul says faith comes by hearing the word of God. You conject (as in show no scripture) that the Holy Spirit cannot draw a willing person to Himself as is - because you conject man remains unwilling until he is re-born.

Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.​

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Mark Quayle said:

I have repeatedly explained that they are one and the same thing. Man's will is changed when God draws him,

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You repeatedly make an assertion without scriptural evidence. The Holy Spirit convicts and draws – but that is not the same as changing man’s will. There is no scripture that God changes man’s will without man's consent (repentance). Some are drawn, but resist.

Mark Quayle said:

but man does not change his own will.

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Wrong. Do you ever change your mind?

Mark Quayle said:

The sinful flesh cannot please God. And without faith, it is impossible to please God.

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John Mullally said:

Man has both spirit and flesh. Paul shows that his own flesh (AKA body) is not born-again and cannot please God in 1 Corinthians 9:27. The Holy Spirit communicates with man's spirit per Proverbs 20:27 - so your flesh analogy does not apply.

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.​

Proverbs 20:27 The spirit of a man is the lamp of the LORD, Searching all the inner depths of his heart.​

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Mark Quayle said:

What flesh analogy? The mind, or heart, of flesh is a scriptural concept. I didn't make it up. Analogy?? Of course the flesh is never born again in this life! I never implied otherwise.

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Your argument here is immaterial as Paul also dealt with his own “sinful flesh cannot please God” per 1 Corinthians 9:27.

John Mullally said:

We do know that man's will is involved in salvation as Peter's Holy Spirit led preaching pleads with men and even promises salvation (remission of sin and receipt of the Holy Spirit) to those who respond with repentance and baptism in Acts 2:38-39. Receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit results in both being born-again and saved.

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Mark Quayle said:

Man's will is not the active cause of regeneration. You yourself have said that the Spirit of God draws the lost. They do not first ask to be drawn. This is by the choice and act of God. That draw is the change of will. It can be all at once, and it can take years. In fact, it can even happen without the person realizing it is happening.

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Again the Holy Spirit’s convicting and drawing is not changing a man’s will.

Mark Quayle said:

Of course man's will is affected! Of course man's heart desires God upon regeneration

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Man’s will is not involved if an outside agency changed it without his permission. Ever watch the movie "The Stepford Wives"?

iwbswiaihl said:

Not to butt in, but order is most important, Luke 13:3 except you repent you perish. Acts 3:19 Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out. Luke 24:47 and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

How could one be regenerated without faith?

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How can a baby be born without a decision to be so?

The Holy Spirit's arm is not too short. . .he doesn't need anything from anyone to regenerate anyone,
just as the mother doesn't need anything from the baby to give it birth.

Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

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John Mullally said:

Is there a grace stated to be irresistible in scripture?

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No, there is not, nor did Calvin ever say grace was irresistible.

That is a misrepresentation.

What is in Scripture is that
we are brought to life (regenerated) by the Holy Spirit
(John 1:12-13, John 3:3-8, John 5:21; Ephesians 2:1, Ephesians 2:5; Titus 3:5) and

God gives faith and repentance
(Acts 5:31, Acts 11:18, Acts 13:48; Ephesians 2:8-9; Philippians 1:29; 2 Timothy 2:25-26)

by which gift of faith we are justified (declared righteous) (Romans 3:21, Romans 3:28).

What is the manner of receiving salvation, and what does it teach is the means: let's look at this which the Apostle Paul was inspired to write in Acts 16:30 Then he brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household.32 Then Paul and Silas spoke the word of the Lord to him and to everyone in his house. 33 At that hour of the night, the jailer took them and washed their wounds. And without delay, he and all his household were baptized. 34 Then he brought them into his home and set a meal before them. So he and all his household rejoiced that they had come to believe in God.

Just one more to show the manner is always the same: Acts 10:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all who heard his message. 45 All the circumcised believers who had accompanied Peter were astounded that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and exalting God.

Then Peter said, 47 “Can anyone withhold the water to baptize these people? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have!” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay for a few days.

This is also good for those who say water baptism saves you, and reference
Acts 2:38. Notice v 10:44 the Holy Spirit fell upon all who believed 47 Can anyone with hold the water to baptize these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have? The Jews who were there were saying the Gentiles could not be saved, this show the Jews they were wrong, will those who believe you must be baptized first in order to get the Holy Spirit believe that they are wrong? Ask them after you show them this verse, it's like a Calvinist when you show them the others verses above, will they believe this post which show when we get saved?