I've seen a pattern and I think it relates to the Endtimes

Jeffwhosoever said:

I agree the signs are happening now and the end is not far away.

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The 'signs' have been with us for 2000 years, and maybe another 20,000 more. Or not - maybe we've got 2 seconds? But the signs of Tyrrany, Chaos, Persecution and Destruction have been with us for 2000 years. That's what it means to live in these Last Days (Acts 2, Hebrews 1, 2 Peter 3:3, 2 Tim 3:1) - 2000 years and counting.

The repeating seven’s in Revelation trace 4 themes. Let's check out the structure. They're to be read along-side each other - not sequentially like some sort of future timeline.

7 SEALs depicting TYRANNY (then back to the beginning to describe)…

7 TRUMPETS depicting CHAOS in nature (then back to the beginning to describe)...

7 SIGNS depicting PERSECUTION (then back to the beginning to describe)...

7 PLAGUES depicting DESTRUCTION.

These episodes are concurrent, not consecutive. They are happening along-side each other now, and always have been since the gospel events. Note these 7's are inside each other like Matryoshka dolls rather than in sequence. That's John's technique for showing that his book is thematic, not linear. It describes this phase of history after Jesus ascension and before his return, these “Last days” (Acts 2, Hebrews 1). It does not prescribe a future timetable, thereby making the book irrelevant to John’s generation and every generation until the last. That would just be weird. More evidence here:-

eclipsenow said:

The 'signs' have been with us for 2000 years, and maybe another 20,000 more. Or not - maybe we've got 2 seconds? But the signs of Tyrrany, Chaos, Persecution and Destruction have been with us for 2000 years. That's what it means to live in these Last Days (Acts 2, Hebrews 1, 2 Peter 3:3, 2 Tim 3:1) - 2000 years and counting.

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A sign - Pride month, pride day.


Luke 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Douggg said:

A sign - Pride month, pride day.


Luke 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

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Exactly! So .... how was Ancient Rome any different? You're judging the way the whole planet is right now by your very narrow window of post-Mcarthyist 1950's "decline" of Christianity in the west. At least, of the culture listening to us. But big whoop de doo - it's ALWAYS been bad out there. Read some history? The whole world isn't western, and there's a LOT of history before 1950's America!

BillCody said:

Abraham had two sons - Ishmael and Isaac. From Ishmael came 12 sons that became 12 nations. From Isaac came Jacob who had 12 sons that became the 12 tribes of Israel (one nation). What if the covenant God made to Abraham goes down both descendant lines. Isaac the Spiritual line to Jesus the True Messiah (Descendants as the stars of heaven). And Ishmael the fleshly line to the false messiah (the antichrist) (Descendants as the dust of the earth). There are similar patterns to both. Both die and are resurrected. Both rule the world. The Holy Trinity and the unholy trinity. Both come on a white horse. You get point. So the descendants of Ishmael are the Ishmaelites. Which I understand to be the Arab nations. So I find it funny that the Arabs are signing the Abraham Accords (Covenant) with the Jewish people. So if what I see is right (and only time will tell and I understand that I could be wrong).
When Saudi Arabia signs the Abraham Accords
then 1 Thessalonians 5:3
While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction
will come upon them suddenly like birth pangs upon a woman with child;
and they shall not escape.
then 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18
For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,
with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive
and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,
to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Therefore comfort one another with these words. (The Rapture)

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I’m not sure why you’re saying the whole world or even the Middle East is saying “peace and safety”.
Israel and Iran have very big issues.
Israel and Palestine are still having issues.
Ukraine and Russia are in the middle of war.
No one is saying “peace and safety”.

SamanthaAnastasia said:

I’m not sure why you’re saying the whole world or even the Middle East is saying “peace and safety”.
Israel and Iran have very big issues.
Israel and Palestine are still having issues.
Ukraine and Russia are in the middle of war.
No one is saying “peace and safety”.

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I think it's the majority that will be saying 'peace and safety'. They are planning for the future, marrying etc.

Matthew 24: “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.... For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen

1 Thess 5:3 | "Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly

What can we conclude about when the Lord will return? 4 things:-

• No one knows
• partying = while there might be some places experiencing 'wars and rumours of wars', many people will be rich and plentiful and partying)
• marrying = planning for the future!
• a time of peace and safety

eclipsenow said:

I think it's the majority that will be saying 'peace and safety'. They are planning for the future, marrying etc.

Matthew 24: “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.... For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen

1 Thess 5:3 | "Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly

What can we conclude about when the Lord will return? 4 things:-

• No one knows
• partying = while there might be some places experiencing 'wars and rumours of wars', many people will be rich and plentiful and partying)
• marrying = planning for the future!
• a time of peace and safety

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If you read 1 Thessalonians 5 carefully, you should see that the "peace and safety" has nothing to do with general peace and safety in the world, but rather has to do with people in spiritual darkness thinking they are spiritually at peace and safe from God's wrath.

Spiritual Jew said:

If you read 1 Thessalonians 5 carefully, you should see that the "peace and safety" has nothing to do with general peace and safety in the world, but rather has to do with people in spiritual darkness thinking they are spiritually at peace and safe from God's wrath.

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How people are relationally to God is in the second paragraph with all the discussion of darkness and light. Instead, the emphasis in the first few verses is not about relationship but the times we live in.

5 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

Which is completely consistent with the emphasis on Sodom and Gomorrah. They were partying it up and planning for the future and making wedding plans, etc, then the flood. Jesus message? THAT DAY can come quickly and unexpectedly. It's a surprise. "eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen"

Jeffwhosoever said:

I can agree with all of this, unless I'm overlooking something.

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It seems to me while the 2Ws are testifying, though I don't take them to literally mean 2 people, no one would be saying peace and safety at the time if they are being bombarded with plagues via them. But once the 2Ws are killed, it then depicts those on the earth making merry. This would seem to be when they are saying peace and safety. Then sudden destruction comes upon them, meaning the day of the Lord, meaning the 7th trumpet. Some propose that the trumpets and vials run in parallel, which I don't see making sense. As if anyone would be making merry if they are being bombarded by any of the 7 vials of wrath in Revelation 16 at the time.

Jeffwhosoever said:

Incorrect. If you take a close read of the 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and 7 bowls of wrath judgments, you will see increasing levels of destruction and judgment. God doesn't want to lose anyone and is giving mankind 21 steps of increasingly devastating judgments, that while painful and terrifying to go through physically, none compare to an eternity of final judgment. We know a lot of people will be saved during tribulation, for John tells us he sees a large number that cannot be counted, and is told that those are ones who have come out of the great tribulation, so I assume its a number larger than 200 million since later on in Revelation John mentions the size of the Army Satan will rally at Armeggdeon. I'd assume as the final judgements near, that fewer and fewer will realize the errors of their ways and gain saving faith in the Lord, and after the marking of the beast, none of those will be saved, but I'd assume even during that period of marking, some will refuse being marked and will die as martyrs and be saved.

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How are we to even approach Revelation in the first place? I'm convinced John tells us how to read his book 4 times in the first chapter - and it's about and to his generation of Christians - and from there for all Christians moving forward through history.

1. "to show his servants what must soon take place" (Verse 1) This is different to the normal 'Jesus is coming back soon' and 'Today is the day of salvation' call. This is specific. Soon TAKE PLACE. Particular things are about to happen, and John wants to write about them.

2. "blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it" (Verse 3) That is, he wants them to meditate on it and obey it. How do you obey something written about and to people thousands of years later? Forget that - how do you even understand it? Imagine getting this message?

"On Mars most red in the year 4000 AD, the Zorg will Zazzle the Marines in Valles Marineris - and the smoke will rise to the heavens." Now obey this! See, if the command is not to you or about you - you cannot obey it. Period. There's nothing to take to heart, nothing to understand about you and your suffering. So how on earth do you obey this? You can barely even comprehend it - and even if you could - it's not to your and your situation or even about you. John's generation couldn't obey it. Not only that, what good has it been for the church for the last 2000 years - it's not about or to them - so how do they benefit? If anything makes me reject futurist readings of Revelation it is that it would render the majority of Revelation as utterly useless to Christians across the last 2000 years - and do nothing except confuse us and make us argue. That's simply NOT in the mission statement of Scripture as we read it in 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

3. "because the time is near." (Verse 3) How many times does John have to say it in the one chapter for futurists to understand? I know it's exciting if Revelation is about us and our times. But surely there's a bit of narcissism in wanting it to be all about us? Surely there's a bit of a Messiah-complex we have as well, where WE want to be the ones that decode it FOR REAL THIS TIME (unlike the 10,000 other failed predictions and timelines out there). I think many of us want to be like Sarah Connor from the Terminator movies - full of certainty and dreadful purpose for the next few years. Fun movies - but give me a break! We are meant to be driven by Jesus' mission for the world - not endless arguing over our own navel gazing about what Revelation 'means to us'.

4. "I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus." ( ESV - Verse 9) John is already in the tribulation. It's already started - and John wants them to understand what to do. They must 'endure with patient endurance' - a catchphrase throughout the book. What does it mean that God's chosen children should suffer like this? He wants them to obey it for real - because he's right there with them.

The futurist objects: "But the world has NEVER seen the stuff described in Revelation!" But it has. They're just not reading the symbols correctly. Hebrew number symbolism starts right back in the Old Testament and includes such devices as a disaster hitting one third of something (the world, the trees, the people). It means that it took a great number, but in God's grace more were left untouched than were destroyed. That's all. Like most Jewish number symbolism, it's not literal or numeric. It's theological - it means something else. Apocalyptic literature was common 200BC to 200AD - and has many other recognisable Jewish number and animal and other symbols. It is clearly a letter of encouragement John wrote to God's people about to suffer under Roman persecution. But not only that, there are temptations to despair when nature is also in chaos, natural disasters happen, persecution from tyrants break out and yet the wealth and security of the State call you to trust in Rome / Babylon / America / Australia / North Korea.

BillCody said:

So how do you explain away the next 3 verses.

1 Thessalonians 5:4-6

4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness, so that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then, let’s not sleep as others do, but let’s be alert and sober.

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Some claim 1 Thess 5:2-5 says we should KNOW when the Lord will return. But it says nothing of the sort! It actually says that Day is unknowable - but it's possible to be prepared for it anyway. Knowing the DATE isn't important, knowing the personal salvation of Jesus Christ is.

1 Thess 5:

Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

It's more like a command to remain in God's family, and remain children of the light and day. This is more about being prepared, like having an insurance policy to use if the house burns down. We don't know when it will burn down. But we have all our family photos backed up on the cloud and all our belongings insured. We are prepared for the eventuality - even if the timing is still like a thief in the night. IF Paul had been implying they were prepared because they knew A DATE - wouldn't he contrast the unprepared as NOT knowing A DATE? Instead it's not about knowing any date - but who you belong to. Light and darkness are not metaphors for knowledge, but which kingdom you are in. Who owns you? Who do you belong to?

1 Thessalonians 5:4-5

NIV: 4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.

Or try the even more accurate ESV:

ESV: 4 But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. 5 For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness.

From the ESV Commentary:-

5:1–11 The Thessalonians are told to prepare for the same thing that will come unexpectedly upon the ungodly—the day of the Lord (vv. 2, 4). Paul assumes that Christians and non-Christians alike will be alive and present when the Day arrives, Christians watchful and ready, non-Christians surprised as by a thief who comes at night. In other words, the rapture of Christians spoken of in 4:17 will not occur before the arrival of the Day that will also bring sudden and inescapable destruction to the wicked (2 Thess. 2:1, 2 notes). See “The Return of Jesus Christ” at 4:16.

1 Thess 5:1–11 - ESV Reformation Study Bible - Bible Gateway

BillCody said:

Light and darkness ARE metaphors for spiritual knowledge. Maybe you should reread the New Testament because you seem to missing that. But nowhere did I set a date and I even said I could be wrong. But I do think that it could be triggered by a event. And that being Saudi Arabia signing the Abraham Accords. And the media saying "Peace and Safety" but I could be WRONG.

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Where does it say the Thessalonians are in the 'light' because they know a date? Paul has just said he DOES NOT need to write to them about it because they already know that the Lord will return like a thief! He does not need to write to them because when the Lord will return is essentially unknowable. THEN he talks about them being in the light because they know the Lord and are IN the kingdom of light - not because they know a date.

This is just basic comprehension.